MP All Models 2023 Mac Pro! [MERGED]

[vel0city]

Non-upgradable memory in machine like this is complete BS. At least let me earn some money with the damn thing so I can afford to throw a few more sticks of RAM in it after a couple of years. Hobbling the Mac Pro (or any Pro Mac) like this is a real kick in the spuds.

 

[mode11]

The group of 'unified memory' fanatics inside Apple is holding the upper hand right now. Any dGPUs with local memory is destroying the 'beauty and elegance of their architecture' that they'll shed blood to defend. I believe it's very fierce ideology war going on behind the scene.

I think it's less ideological and more pragmatic. Every other machine in the range - MacBooks, mini, iMac, Studio - benefits greatly from the unified approach. The Mac Pro is a niche outlier. This wasn't an issue when Apple could just buy Xeon chipsets, as their development is paid for by the worldwide server market. But now Apple are footing the bill, it obviously makes no economic sense. So the Mac Pro will get whatever can be put together from the parts available to mainstream ASi machines. This will never change. Apple knew this would need to be the case the day they signed off on moving Macs to Apple Silicon, but felt (and still feel) that the upsides massively outweigh a comparatively minor downside.

If you want a Xeon-style Mac Pro, you will have to buy a PC. There's absolutely no getting around it. Expandable machines make much more sense on Windows anyway - there's vastly better hardware support, and the software ecosystem reflects that too.

I take no pleasure in pointing this out. I'm considering my options too. But it's better to move on than hold out hope for something that will never happen.

 

[bs80]

The Xeon was pretty darn quiet so I suspect this should be way more quiet particularly since ther are no graphic cards restricting air flow.

I currently still have the 28 core 7.1 MacPro with Vega II & Radeon Pro X6800X DUO. It's not loud, just a hiss but when the room is quiet it becomes very audible. Also have a Mac Studio and it is just as audible with a hiss. If I take the Macbook 16" M2Max as a comparison, it remains inaudible. That's why I'm interested in whether the volume (fan speed) drops because of the new processor or whether everything stays the same. On the Apple website it is said that this is probably quieter but it is paraphrased and not clearly expressed, everyone has a different noise perception.

 

[h9826790]

I think you may be off on the tech quite a bit. My understanding is there have been servers with arm chips that have had PCI for a while (mostly in enterprise). Also, nothing stop using the GPUs on an arm system other than drivers. As proof, seems like Lunix on arm can use those GPUs.

Yeah, a quick search shows that the ARS-210M-NR server use the Ampere Altra CPU (ARM), which has 128 PCIe Gen4 lanes for its PCIe slots, support up to 4TB DDR4 ECC RAM, and this server has 16x Nvidia A16 GPU (x86)

So, there is no real technical limitation that makes ARM Mac Pro cannot has ECC RAM or x86 dGPU.

 

[singhs.apps]

Very unlikely in the next couple of years. From 5 to 10 years, maybe Apple will change on this.

dGPUs are so alient to the dominant force inside Apple. I don't believe Apple has problem with AMD. So if Apple is going to do dGPUs in PCIe slots, they'll actually choose a less costly path by simply endorsing AMD dGPUs in Apple Silicon machines. I believe neither (Apple dGPUs or 3rd party) is going to happen until the dominant force loses steam or power.

The group of 'unified memory' fanatics inside Apple is holding the upper hand right now. Any dGPUs with local memory is destroying the 'beauty and elegance of their architecture' that they'll shed blood to defend. I believe it's very fierce ideology war going on behind the scene. But like any ideological lunatics, change can happen when they lose power.

Don’t..don’t give us false hopes…😭😂😇

 

[h9826790]

Very unlikely in the next couple of years. From 5 to 10 years, maybe Apple will change on this.

dGPUs are so alient to the dominant force inside Apple. I don't believe Apple has problem with AMD. So if Apple is going to do dGPUs in PCIe slots, they'll actually choose a less costly path by simply endorsing AMD dGPUs in Apple Silicon machines. I believe neither (Apple dGPUs or 3rd party) is going to happen until the dominant force loses steam or power.

The group of 'unified memory' fanatics inside Apple is holding the upper hand right now. Any dGPUs with local memory is destroying the 'beauty and elegance of their architecture' that they'll shed blood to defend. I believe it's very fierce ideology war going on behind the scene. But like any ideological lunatics, change can happen when they lose power.

I think even Apple has problem with AMD. There is still nothing to stop them provide dGPU for the 8,1.

Technically, Apple can simply put the M2 ultra on a PCIe card, and use local firmware to disable the CPU part. Then they can make a M2 Ultra PCIe graphic card that has 192GB VRAM in no time.

Even this isn't ideal for 8,1 users. But macOS always has the build in driver for Apple silicon. Therefore, no need to get any help from AMD. Or ask AMD to write driver for them.

And even this M2 Ultra PCIe graphic card won't has hardware ray tracing etc, but at least it can provide extra media engines to the 8,1, which makes the 8,1 can do more parallel video decoding / encoding. Also, more GPGPU raw power, which is good for compute, rendering, or machine learning.

This also let the 8,1 user has some reasonble upgrade path. Even the CPU part will always be M2 Ultra, the system memory will always be 192GB max (a bit like the cMP stuck with dual X5690 and 256GB RAM). But at least they may able to use M3 Ultra graphic card later, which may also has more VRAM. And the cMP proved that with a reasonably good CPU raw power and memory capacity, as long as we can get the latest graphic card, the computer's life span can be extended a lot.

 

[mattspace]

Yeah, a quick search shows that the ARS-210M-NR server use the Ampere Altra CPU (ARM), which has 128 PCIe Gen4 lanes for its PCIe slots, support up to 4TB DDR4 ECC RAM, and this server has 16x Nvidia A16 GPU (x86)


So, there is no real technical limitation that makes ARM Mac Pro cannot has ECC RAM or x86 dGPU.

so... this is the new hackintosh base, right?

 

[m1maverick]

This also let the 8,1 user has some reasonble upgrade path. Even the CPU part will always be M2 Ultra, the system memory will always be 192GB max (a bit like the cMP stuck with dual X5690 and 256GB RAM). But at least they may able to use M3 Ultra graphic card later, which may also has more VRAM. And the cMP proved that with a reasonably good CPU raw power and memory capacity, as long as we can get the latest graphic card, the computer's life span can be extended a lot.

LOL at a 14 year old system being "stuck" with more memory capacity than a brand new system.

 

[prefuse07]

Now, outside of Music production (and even this is a stretch, because there are workarounds), it really doesn't make any sense to buy the new M2 Mac Pro over the Studio.

Check this out:

Here is a pretty good "why":

SOURCE

The point about PCIe expansion is somewhat moot since all you can really add via that expansion is audio hardware, and even that is stupid point, because there are workarounds to needing PCIe for audio cards... I doubt you can even add PCIe storage and RAM.

SO it really does look like apple's plan is to handicap the Pro, so that the Studio can fully cannibalize it and they can say: "see, look, nobody is buying it, so we're going to cancel the product, and the Studio will remain in its place". Tim Cook's legacy should be "The man that killed the Mac Pro, and put profits over everything else."

Really is a sad time in computer science history if you ask me. There was so much potential to "wow" everyone the same way they tried with that headset. I guess all of their attention has been shifted toward that product instead, and it will probably continue to be that way from now on.

IMO, the Mac Pro is dead. This 2023 clown show will probably be the last version, and we'll likely hear their BS justification for canning it sometime in late 2025, after the product has been on the market for at least a year, so they can justify scrapping it.

ugh, what a damn shame.

 

[m1maverick]

Now, outside of Music production (and even this is a stretch, because there are workarounds), it really doesn't make any sense to buy the new M2 Mac Pro over the Studio.

Check this out:

View attachment 2215145

Here is a pretty good "why":

View attachment 2215146

SOURCE

The point about PCIe expansion is somewhat moot since all you can really add via that expansion is audio hardware, and even that is stupid point, because there are workarounds to needing PCIe for audio cards... I doubt you can even add PCIe storage and RAM.

SO it really does look like apple's plan is to handicap the Pro, so that the Studio can fully cannibalize it and they can say: "see, look, nobody is buying it, so we're going to cancel the product, and the Studio will remain in its place". Tim Cook's legacy should be "The man that killed the Mac Pro, and put profits over everything else."

Really is a sad time in computer science history if you ask me. There was so much potential to "wow" everyone the same way they tried with that headset. I guess all of their attention has been shifted toward that product instead, and it will probably continue to be that way from now on.

IMO, the Mac Pro is dead. This 2023 clown show will probably be the last version, and we'll likely hear their BS justification for canning it sometime in late 2025, after the product has been on the market for at least a year, so they can justify scrapping it.

ugh, what a damn shame.

The first reason to choose the Mac Pro has nothing to do with the design of the Mac Pro or Studio but rather Apple artificially restricting the latter's ability to do so.

 

[jscipione]

The first reason to choose the Mac Pro has nothing to do with the design of the Mac Pro or Studio but rather Apple artificially restricting the latter's ability to do so.

Artificially restricting the Mac Pro is the design. Apple effectively killed the Mac Pro, there is no reason to buy it over the studio. Even if you need PCIe you can hookup a thunderbolt enclosure to the Studio for cheaper.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Now, outside of Music production (and even this is a stretch, because there are workarounds), it really doesn't make any sense to buy the new M2 Mac Pro over the Studio.

Check this out:

View attachment 2215145

Here is a pretty good "why":

View attachment 2215146

SOURCE

The point about PCIe expansion is somewhat moot since all you can really add via that expansion is audio hardware, and even that is stupid point, because there are workarounds to needing PCIe for audio cards... I doubt you can even add PCIe storage and RAM.

SO it really does look like apple's plan is to handicap the Pro, so that the Studio can fully cannibalize it and they can say: "see, look, nobody is buying it, so we're going to cancel the product, and the Studio will remain in its place". Tim Cook's legacy should be "The man that killed the Mac Pro, and put profits over everything else."

Really is a sad time in computer science history if you ask me. There was so much potential to "wow" everyone the same way they tried with that headset. I guess all of their attention has been shifted toward that product instead, and it will probably continue to be that way from now on.

IMO, the Mac Pro is dead. This 2023 clown show will probably be the last version, and we'll likely hear their BS justification for canning it sometime in late 2025, after the product has been on the market for at least a year, so they can justify scrapping it.

ugh, what a damn shame.

I disagree somewhat. The ability to add PCIe 16bit SSD cards gets you into crazy large capacity and crazy fast SSD space. There are PCIE cards that can do I think 15 to 25GBps throughput and apparently over 50GBps if you cross link them (but not sure that is possible on Mac). Plus you can still put in a cage to have multiple U.2 drives that can be raided on such cards. So those looking for crazy fast and crazy large SSD capacities, there is a use case for them.

SSD7540 NVMe RAID AIC |HighPoint Technologies, Inc.

SSD7540 is an 8-port M.2 NVMe RAID Controller, no bifurcation, standalone solution, with dedicated PCIe 4.0 x16 to deliver up to 28,000MB/s of transfer speed.

www.highpoint-tech.com

SSD7580B NVMe RAID AIC | HighPoint Technologies, Inc.

SSD7580B is a low-profile, Bootable 8-channel U.2/U.3/M.2 NVMe RAID Controller, supporting Hot-Plug & Hot-Swap, with dedicated PCIe 4.0 x16, up to 28GB/s.

www.highpoint-tech.com

Throw a few of these beauties in the cage:

The 32TB Micron 9400 Pro is a Beast PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD

We take a look at the massive Micron 9400 30.72TB and see how this is not just a large PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD, it is also perhaps the fastest

www.servethehome.com

 

[prefuse07]

I disagree somewhat. The ability to add PCIe 16bit SSD cards gets you into crazy large capacity and crazy fast SSD space. There are PCIE cards that can do I think 15 to 25GBps throughput and apparently over 50GBps if you cross link them (but not sure that is possible on Mac). Plus you can still put in a cage to have multiple U.2 drives that can be raided on such cards. So those looking for crazy fast and crazy large SSD capacities, there is a use case for them.

SSD7540 NVMe RAID AIC |HighPoint Technologies, Inc.

SSD7540 is an 8-port M.2 NVMe RAID Controller, no bifurcation, standalone solution, with dedicated PCIe 4.0 x16 to deliver up to 28,000MB/s of transfer speed.

www.highpoint-tech.com

SSD7580B NVMe RAID AIC | HighPoint Technologies, Inc.

SSD7580B is a low-profile, Bootable 8-channel U.2/U.3/M.2 NVMe RAID Controller, supporting Hot-Plug & Hot-Swap, with dedicated PCIe 4.0 x16, up to 28GB/s.

www.highpoint-tech.com

Throw a few of these beauties in the cage:

The 32TB Micron 9400 Pro is a Beast PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD

We take a look at the massive Micron 9400 30.72TB and see how this is not just a large PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD, it is also perhaps the fastest

www.servethehome.com

Yeah but, honestly, how big is the market for folks that need that? That seems so niche...

Is it really more than the folks that need GPU support?

 

[typecase]

Any idea if I can take my MPX RAID storage module (Pegasus R4i) which I love as it gives me tons of relatively fast storage and plug this into the new Apple silicon Mac Pro? The motherboard looks like it should still accomodate it, no? When I tried to order one months ago, they cancelled my order said it was 'sold out.' and I assumed they no longer sold it due to end of life of the 2019 Mac Pro. But now, it's back in stock so I wonder if it can be used in both Mac Pros.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Yeah but, honestly, how big is the market for folks that need that? That seems so niche...

Is it really more than the folks that need GPU support?

Well it's all about the niches with the Mac Pro. If I were doing 8k video, I would want that for sure. I do a little 8k video, but not enough that I *need* this. But if youre doing a lot, it's super useful to have lots of content on hand and fast.

 

[Jethro!]

Non-upgradable memory in machine like this is complete BS. At least let me earn some money with the damn thing so I can afford to throw a few more sticks of RAM in it after a couple of years. Hobbling the Mac Pro (or any Pro Mac) like this is a real kick in the spuds.

Exactly. We told Apple over and over again: "A non-upgradable Mac 'Pro' is a total nonstarter. DON'T DO IT!!"
They knew it and did it anyway. "In your face!" - Love, Apple
Insulting.

 

[Jethro!]

SO it really does look like apple's plan is to handicap the Pro, so that the Studio can fully cannibalize it and they can say: "see, look, nobody is buying it, so we're going to cancel the product, and the Studio will remain in its place". Tim Cook's legacy should be "The man that killed the Mac Pro, and put profits over everything else."

Bingo. This looks absolutely intentional. They got it right with the 2019 MP, and now this??
If they'd just updated it and made it UPGRADEABLE with the latest Intel everything we'd be happy.

 

[avkills]

Apple can redeem themselves halfway by releasing a MPX W7xxx card. 🤣🤣

 

[avkills]

I truly think they had something better planned; but it probably turned out to be a lot harder to implement than they thought it would; and they probably used most or all available time and resources on the Vision.

 

[blazerunner]

Apple can redeem themselves halfway by releasing a MPX W7xxx card. 🤣🤣

That won't be redemption, they'll charge 3-5X as much as a regular 7000 series AMD for no justifiable reason other than to rip off consumers and stroke the ego if it's shareholders. The consumers comes LAST with Apple.

 

[avkills]

That won't be redemption, they'll charge 3-5X as much as a regular 7000 series AMD for no justifiable reason other than to rip off consumers and stroke the ego if it's shareholders. The consumers comes LAST with Apple.

I don't have to buy one from Apple.

 

[m1maverick]

Artificially restricting the Mac Pro is the design. Apple effectively killed the Mac Pro, there is no reason to buy it over the studio. Even if you need PCIe you can hookup a thunderbolt enclosure to the Studio for cheaper.

What I was referring to is the Mac Studios inability to upgrade its SSD is not related to its form but rather Apple blocking the ability to do so. The fact one of the selling points of the Mac Pro is an arbitrary limitation put in place by Apple and no other reason.

 

[m1maverick]

Yeah but, honestly, how big is the market for folks that need that? That seems so niche...

Is it really more than the folks that need GPU support?

Such things are not unusual: HP Z Turbo Quad Pro. I achieve 11GB/sec read speeds with 4 x 512GB SSDs in a RAID 0 configuration. I could probably bump that up to 16GB/sec if I were to install 4 x 1TB drives.

 

[kvic]

I think even Apple has problem with AMD. There is still nothing to stop them provide dGPU for the 8,1.

Technically, Apple can simply put the M2 ultra on a PCIe card, and use local firmware to disable the CPU part. Then they can make a M2 Ultra PCIe graphic card that has 192GB VRAM in no time.

Right, Apple could quickly hack up an Apple dGPU to put into PCIe slots. Put in a little bit more effort, Apple could come up with less expensive Apple dGPUs. The problem is not if Apple can create dGPUs or not. It's if they want to do so or not. That's the ideology I'm referring to. If Apple has the will to open the door, endorsing AMD dGPUs is the cheapest way to sell powerful dGPUs for the new Mac Pro. Better yet existing user investments in MacPro7,1 can carry forward to the new Mac Pro.

To support dGPUs in Apple Silicon machines, you will need the driver and extend existing Metal APIs to take care of dGPUs. Some of these exist already from Intel Macs. But Apple's intention is all in for 'unified memory architecture'. An Apple GPU hacked up like you said is exactly what a dGPU with local memory that I mentioned in previous post, which has to do data shuffling through the PCIe bus to/from CPU, system memory, and iGPU. That's a 'BIG problem' for 'unified memory' fanatics inside Apple. They don't like it. They don't want to open this door. Why? Ideology behind it is one main possible explanation I can think of. Along this ideology, perhaps lots of fights happened inside and blood shed for 'unified memory' supremacy. This gives 'unified memory' fanatics in power even less chance to off ramp their position until politics change inside the spaceship for whatever reasons.

 

[Waragainstsleep]

Nope not me. My "ole' faithful" 2010 Mac Pro was full of 3.5 drives.
You know whats great? Some big fat 12TB+ drives for slow storage of finished projects.

With Apple the beauty of this Mac Pro is that your 3.5 drives are OUTSIDE the computer!

It does actually have two SATA ports inside according to Apple. (And a USB-A port) Not sure where you're gonna
actually put the drives though.

It seems to me that Apple's architecture can never support external or add on GPUs. That seems a surprise to many here. But its pretty obvious since Apple shares its RAM with its VRAM. Surely that has been known by everyone here for a considerable time?

I haven't seen a technical explanation as to why extra GPUs can't be used. I also haven't seen one explaining why nVidia can't write drivers for their cards for the Intel Macs.
Once upon a time I bought a really cheap, ****** USB GPU. It was to enable running an extra external display and it worked on my old 2008 MacBook Pro. It sucked big time, slow and laggy. But it did work. If you can push data to VRAM via USB, I see no reason the unified memory architecture would prevent you from doing the same over PCIE.

This Mac Pro feels like the 2006 iMac. I think Apple has been trying to do something different, but they opted to do something rather than nothing for too much longer. This MP will be perfectly useful for quite a few users. All the power of the studio, throw in big redundant storage via a Promise MPX module and happy days for many video and audio editors.
The point is, they could have done this much sooner. An M1 Ultra MacPro. So I'd bet there is something else in the pipeline that they couldn't get ready fast enough. I would guess RAM slots. Or some kind of compute cards along the lines of the Afterburner maybe.