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3D Modelling for beginners & nMP

handsome pete said:
We're strictly talking 3D here. Half of the links you provided don't apply and others concern plugins or specialty features. OpenCL simply isn't widespread in the 3D world yet, which was the original question posed.
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Eh?
Even you mentioned After Affects as a plus point.

All the links show OpenCL (apart from face tracking) that could be used within a 3D artists toolset. If you are just talking about 3D modelling then yeah, I agree.
 
m0bus said:
On the Maya side we do use OpenCL for the Bullet plugin but the video showing the fluids was just a technology preview. As for Viewport 2.0 we do leverage the GPU quite a bit for doing things like screen space ambient occlusion, depth of field, MSAA and other full screen effects.

Another area we leverage the GPU is with our GPU Cache technology (basically a geometry cache on disk that's very light weight and performance tuned) and we also have a system called Vertex Animation Caching where we can cache deforming vertices of characters to graphics memory and then stream the data off the graphics card for increased performance.

The caveat with the nMP is Maya will still only use a single GPU so the other card is basically going to sit there idle mostly. Hope that sheds a bit more insight on the Maya side of things :)
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Good info. So Maya, as far as it seems is already implementing GPU acceleration (and I assume OpenCL) even at the viewport level which covers modelling but is lacking multi-GPU acceleration so the nMP dual cards are not taken advantage of. Is that the same in Windows Maya with Crossfire enabled?

On another note, Autodesk is looking at cloud access to 3DSMax and Maya using Orbx and Octaincloud. Thus making any local workstation GPUs or OS irrelevant as it is all done server side and streamed to you via your browser. I'm personally not sure how that would work, especially when some projects are 50+ gigs in size.
 
Anim said:
On another note, Autodesk is looking at cloud access to 3DSMax and Maya using Orbx and Octaincloud. Thus making any local workstation GPUs or OS irrelevant as it is all done server side and streamed to you via your browser. I'm personally not sure how that would work, especially when some projects are 50+ gigs in size.
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Oh man...I hope they don't move to that. If it's not local it's gonna be horrible to deal with. I use some of Adobe's Cloud apps (Scene7) and it's a nightmare to try to manipulate anything. The lag completely ruins any precision...and that's just photo manipulation. We end-up downloading and manipulating via PS and then re-uploading. I'm not really sure why they even offer it or if anyone actually uses the limited features. I don't even think a straight fiber connection would be able to correct the delay on a cloud-based app. Too many nodes are being hit to allow a fluid interface.
 
bcuzawd said:
Oh man...I hope they don't move to that. If it's not local it's gonna be horrible to deal with. I use some of Adobe's Cloud apps (Scene7) and it's a nightmare to try to manipulate anything. The lag completely ruins any precision...and that's just photo manipulation. We end-up downloading and manipulating via PS and then re-uploading. I'm not really sure why they even offer it or if anyone actually uses the limited features. I don't even think a straight fiber connection would be able to correct the delay on a cloud-based app. Too many nodes are being hit to allow a fluid interface.
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http://www.cgchannel.com/2013/12/new-autodesk-initiative-puts-max-and-maya-in-your-browser/
 
Anim said:
http://www.cgchannel.com/2013/12/new-autodesk-initiative-puts-max-and-maya-in-your-browser/
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That's all well and good, but where were these guys running these devices from? I'd bet they have an almost direct link to the hosts.

The obvious advantage is the rendering portion, but to actually build/create in the app via the cloud is gonna be a pain. While it will be advantageous for some portions of the creation process, there will be some serious growing-pains for the deep-dives.

Not saying it isn't possible, there's just a loooooong way to go with a lot of different parts to this particular puzzle.

Edit: just to add to this as well...this would completely kill the hardware market. Production studios would only have to issue a macbook air for access. If they could perfect this interface, there'd be no point in wasting money on say...a nMP? for instance. Of course...this is only if the only software you're using is Autodesk.
 
Anim said:
Eh?
Even you mentioned After Affects as a plus point.

All the links show OpenCL (apart from face tracking) that could be used within a 3D artists toolset. If you are just talking about 3D modelling then yeah, I agree.
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I'm not saying your links weren't informative, but seeing as the original question posed was about introductory modeling and texturing, I was pointing out that OpenCL really doesn't fit into the picture at this point.

Your links included Adobe's Mercury engine (Adobe doesn't have 3D apps), DaVinci Resolve (a color grading program), Indigo (a 3rd party renderer), Maya fluids (not applicable yet), and Maya Bullet plugin (dynamics/simulations). All of these play a part in the 3D pipeline, but in my opinion was just a little too off the mark from what the original question asked. I thought it only served to confuse someone trying to get in to all of this.

I mentioned AE in response to someone's suggestion that Adobe get into the 3D business. I simply pointed out their relationship to Maxon. AE is still primarily a post tool, working in 2D. It does have limited 3D capability, even moreso now with C4D lite. But again, as far as the original poster is concerned, it isn't really a concern.

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bcuzawd said:
Oh man...I hope they don't move to that. If it's not local it's gonna be horrible to deal with. I use some of Adobe's Cloud apps (Scene7) and it's a nightmare to try to manipulate anything. The lag completely ruins any precision...and that's just photo manipulation. We end-up downloading and manipulating via PS and then re-uploading. I'm not really sure why they even offer it or if anyone actually uses the limited features. I don't even think a straight fiber connection would be able to correct the delay on a cloud-based app. Too many nodes are being hit to allow a fluid interface.
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I can see them offering it as a service, but I really don't see it becoming the norm. There are still too many studios/companies who prefer to keep their machines locked down and cut off from the internet.

The cloud rendering, however, is a nice plus.
 
bcuzawd said:
That's all well and good, but where were these guys running these devices from? I'd bet they have an almost direct link to the hosts.

The obvious advantage is the rendering portion, but to actually build/create in the app via the cloud is gonna be a pain. While it will be advantageous for some portions of the creation process, there will be some serious growing-pains for the deep-dives.

Not saying it isn't possible, there's just a loooooong way to go with a lot of different parts to this particular puzzle.
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Totally agree with you. The video was actually better than I imagined but I would think that render farms would benefit from this almost straight away as it would allow a user full interactivity and testing prior to network rendering an entire job.
 
Dranix said:
- Houdini : god of vfx renders, VERY expensive, but cheap non-commercial available

Probably forgotten some...
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Not quite true though. Houdini is a LOT more cheaper then it was, price has come down about half. It has a version costing far more less then Maya and the bunch, but without any fx(that is particles, fur/hair, cloth, liquids etc) just for animation. The full version for freelancers(with FX and all) has a quite acceptable price tag and it's a really amazing application.
To the thread starter. Depending on what you do you might try Cinema 4d(it's the king for tv/broadcasting and now has even sculpting) - it's by far the most intuitive of all packages, and quite powerful. For movies Maya, but i don't recommend it as a true beginner package. If you steer away from mac, you can give a serious try to XSI - although it's complex, it has ICE a very serious tool and the only true contender of Houdini. If you REALLY want to dive into 3d - aka get a job, then your only options are Maya, 3dsMax, XSI and Houdini. Lately Cinema 4D gets a very wide spread use, but not so much by studios, so you can learn it just to get you started - not sure if it will land you a job.
Regarding the OpenCL - there isn't much of a fuss about it. It's still on early stages of adoption. In Houdini you can use it to speed up your pyroFX module(fire/smoke etc) and fluids simulations. It can use as many GPU's as available for simulation. For display will use only one. Alos for digital painting Mari, not sure if it uses both GPU's though. Hope this helps you.... Good luck with your start.
 
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handsome pete said:
Your links included Adobe's Mercury engine (Adobe doesn't have 3D apps), DaVinci Resolve (a color grading program), Indigo (a 3rd party renderer), Maya fluids (not applicable yet), and Maya Bullet plugin (dynamics/simulations). All of these play a part in the 3D pipeline, but in my opinion was just a little too off the mark from what the original question asked. I thought it only served to confuse someone trying to get in to all of this.
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Don't want to confuse anybody but don't want to mislead them either.

3D creation (depending on your field) often uses many software tools to get that final piece of art out the pipeline. The op said Model and Paint. The paint part is 2D, even if painting onto a 3D model, its still a 2D texture being produced. So that brings in software like Pixelmator (OpenCL Enhanced) or Adobe PhotoShop.

Then there is the output. If the OP want to simply sell "Textured models" on Turbosquid then thats great but I will assume that beauty renders are more the desired outcome.

So that means rendering, some 3D app render engines are crap and little more than a shaded view with shadows and so additional render engines can be bought to greatly enhance the rendered output. Somebody mentioned that Modo has a good render engine but not all apps do, Sketchup for example doesn't have a good native rendering engine. 3DSMax scanline and MentalRay are OK but most Max artists I know also use VRay for performance. Along with rendering you get Reflections, refractions, specular, Ambient occlusion etc. Its pretty much a required process in producing a final piece of art.

Then after you have your model rendering you most often need to colour correct it, or play around with the channels (shadows, specular etc) and fix any rendering artefacts. That takes us back to PhotoShop for some post work.

So, either I'm educating the OP or confusing them. I hope educating :)

Anim
 
motegi said:
I'm a 10+ year retoucher/designer/illustrator and just interested in making some models and painting textures up.
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I think he has already painting/drawing apps. But considering his background ZBrush is the natural way into 3d - not some of the monsters like Maya or Houdini.
 
Surprised no one has mentioned Sculptris yet. If you want to learn about organic modeling and sculpting but don't want to jump in ZBrush right away Sculptris is made by the same company and is free.
 
Dranix said:
I think he has already painting/drawing apps. But considering his background ZBrush is the natural way into 3d - not some of the monsters like Maya or Houdini.
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Aye. He also wanted to know "Which are optimised for OpenCL?" which brought on the discussion about 2D.

I think the thread is progressing in the right direction myself. Lots of tips and opinions.

I would say ZBrush too based on the OPs requirement of painting, but ZBrush is known to be more of an organic modeller (characters / monsters etc). It is starting to move into more solid type modelling but still, other packages may offer better all round solutions. Depends on what the OP wants really.

Some needed info from the OP:

1. What is your budget?

2. Is this going to be a hobby/learning exercise or are you hoping to use the tools for business?

3. If eventually you want to use 3D for business then what type?
 
Anim said:
Don't want to confuse anybody but don't want to mislead them either.

So, either I'm educating the OP or confusing them. I hope educating :)

Anim
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Fair enough. I don't think any of your information was invalid. 3D design is a pretty vast space, so it can get overwhelming for someone trying to get in to it. At this point OpenCL plays such a minor role that it's somewhat irrelevant for most.
 
I'm almost a complete beginner at 3D modelling, and my experience was I tried Blender, and hated it. It's free, very powerful and has a huge support community online; but to me nothing about it is intuitive.

So then I bought Cheetah 3D as it's one of the cheapest out there, and it - to me - was so much easier to use. I followed a few online tutorials and was massively impressed with myself at what I achieved just one week in. :) I can't really comment on its shortcomings as I can't afford most of the others! But it might be an idea to try something like this rather than splashing down several hundred/thousand dollars only to find it's not what you needed.

Since I wasn't struggling with the basic UI I was able to focus on what I was actually trying to model (instead of "what's the keystroke for..." or "what does this button do..."). Once you learn the modelling concepts and terminology, it's easier then to pick out what you want and need from one of the higher-end tools. Reading most reviews of 3D modelling packages won't help you at all if you're a complete beginner like me.
 
Anim said:
Aye. He also wanted to know "Which are optimised for OpenCL?" which brought on the discussion about 2D.

I think the thread is progressing in the right direction myself. Lots of tips and opinions.

I would say ZBrush too based on the OPs requirement of painting, but ZBrush is known to be more of an organic modeller (characters / monsters etc). It is starting to move into more solid type modelling but still, other packages may offer better all round solutions. Depends on what the OP wants really.

Some needed info from the OP:

1. What is your budget?

2. Is this going to be a hobby/learning exercise or are you hoping to use the tools for business?

3. If eventually you want to use 3D for business then what type?
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Ah fair enough!

1. Budget is $1000-1500 (Business expensed)

2. Learning with intent to recoup costs later and possible break into a new market for my business.

3. I'm not entirely sure. Right now I could see more benefit in doing Cine4D stuff (I'm assuming it's AE on steroids?) for TV/Online clientele, but to get 'interested' in 3D as a whole, I think designing hardsurfaced things like vehicles and environments would be more fulfilling.

Keep in mind though, while I'm a 'painty' kind of artist now, I realise learning the toughest suite (maya by the sounds of it) might pay off in the long term and create a solid basis of understanding of the 3D workflow.
 
Most 3d Packages are very CAD like. So its more like technical drawing and constructing. You have to be born for that. I'm not ,)

Cinema4d is *no* AE on Steroids. Its like Maya, just a little less powerful.

With your background Zbrush would be great as it is very easy for people from painting/sculpting get into it. It nearly removes the construction part from 3d and Zbrush artists are in need for movies, games etc. Nearly any highly detailed mesh gets at least some love from Zbrush.

For more traditional 3d - have a look at the free Shade3D for Unity. Ist is a little restricted in features and the renderer removed, but you could check how you like the construction way. It never got to me besides easy stuff, but I stuck to Zbrush the first time I was on it. Many people from traditional construction oriented packages can't stand it, but comming form traditional art it'g god sent.
 
Sounds like C4D is the right choice for you if you're talking about utilizing for TV and online stuff. It's a really good all-inclusive software that is getting better with every release.

For a bunch of in-depth tutorials and info on its capabilities (along with AE CC integration) check-out the below.

http://greyscalegorilla.com/blog/tutorials/

_________
 
I'm going to chime in and say +1 for Modo. Cheaper than many other options ($1500 for the full package) and its fantastic, the licensing is excellent too (use it wherever you want on however many computers you want, you just can't have more than one instance open at a time).

I've used several different modelers out there and Modo is by far my favorite.
 
chrono1081 said:
I'm going to chime in and say +1 for Modo. Cheaper than many other options ($1500 for the full package) and its fantastic, the licensing is excellent too (use it wherever you want on however many computers you want, you just can't have more than one instance open at a time).

I've used several different modelers out there and Modo is by far my favorite.
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Modo looks interesting. I may have to give it a try WHENEVER MY nMP GETS HERE!!!!!!!!!:mad::confused:
 
bcuzawd said:
Modo looks interesting. I may have to give it a try WHENEVER MY nMP GETS HERE!!!!!!!!!:mad::confused:
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It has a fantastic renderer too. This was done with no post processing in Photoshop: If you right click it and click "Open image in new window" you'll see a bigger version.

1aafcb27f12642938e3e3e8a55e3bc40.jpg
 
While there are some loud voices for Modo, it's hardly a standard in any realm. I'd start off with something that you can easily find tutorials and plugins for; then work my way into more specialized software. Zbrush is not a good starting point as you will not learn the basics of 3D while learning Zbrush.
 
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