Apple to use TSMC’s next 3-nm chip tech in iPhones and Macs next year
Move will mark industry’s first adoption of updated production technology
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Paywall 😑Apple to use TSMC’s next 3-nm chip tech in iPhones and Macs next year
Move will mark industry’s first adoption of updated production technologywww.ft.com
Apple to use TSMC’s next 3-nm chip tech in iPhones and Macs next year
Move will mark industry’s first adoption of updated production technology Apple and TSMC logos side by side
Cheng Ting-Fang, Nikkei Asia chief tech correspondent September 22 2022 Print this page
Apple aims to be the first company to use an updated version of Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co’s latest chipmaking technology next year, with plans to adopt it for some of its iPhones and Mac computers, sources briefed on the matter told Nikkei Asia.
The A17 mobile processor currently under development will be mass-produced using TSMC’s N3E chipmaking tech, expected to be available in the second half of next year, according to three people familiar with the matter. The A17 will be used in the premium entry in the iPhone line-up scheduled for release in 2023, they said.
N3E is an upgraded version of TSMC’s current 3-nanometer production tech, which is only starting to go into use this year. The next generation of Apple’s M3 chip for its Mac offerings is also set to use the upgraded 3-nm tech, two sources added.
Nanometre size refers to the distance between transistors on a chip. The smaller the number, the more transistors can be squeezed on to a chip, making them more powerful but also more challenging and costly to produce.
N3E will offer better performance and energy efficiency than the first version of the tech, TSMC said in a recent technology symposium in Hsinchu, Taiwan. Industry sources said the upgraded production tech is also designed to be more cost-effective than its predecessor.
As TSMC’s largest customer and the biggest driver for new semiconductor technologies, Apple is still its most loyal partner when it comes to adopting the latest chip technology. The US tech giant will be the first to use TSMC’s first generation of 3-nm technology, using it for some of its upcoming iPads, Nikkei Asia reported earlier.
Previously, Intel told TSMC that it would like to secure 3-nm production by this year or early next year to be among the first wave of adopters like Apple, but it has since delayed its orders to at least 2024, three people told Nikkei Asia.
However, 2023 could mark the second year in a row that Apple uses TSMC’s most advanced chipmaking technology for only a part of its iPhone line-up. In 2022, only the premium iPhone 14 Pro range has adopted the latest A16 core processor, which is produced by TSMC’s 4-nm process technologies, the most advanced currently available. The standard iPhone 14 range uses the older A15, which was used in the iPhone 13 and iPhone 13 Pro models released in the second half of 2021.
Meanwhile, the race is on among chipmakers to roll out ever more advanced production tech. TSMC and Samsung each hopes to be the first to put 3-nm tech into mass production this year. This technology is suitable for all types of central and graphics processors for smartphones, computers and servers, as well as those used in artificial intelligence computing.
Apple, meanwhile, is likely to use the different levels of production tech to introduce greater differences between its premium and non-premium models, according to Dylan Patel, chief analyst with SemiAnalysis. Previously the biggest differences have been in screens and cameras, but this could be expanded to include processors and memory chips, he said.
According to the analyst’s estimate, there is a cost increase of at least 40 per cent for the same area of silicon when moving to 3-nm chips from the 5-nm family, which includes 4-nm chips.
TSMC, Intel and Apple declined to comment.
Move will mark industry’s first adoption of updated production technology Apple and TSMC logos side by side
Cheng Ting-Fang, Nikkei Asia chief tech correspondent September 22 2022 Print this page
Apple aims to be the first company to use an updated version of Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co’s latest chipmaking technology next year, with plans to adopt it for some of its iPhones and Mac computers, sources briefed on the matter told Nikkei Asia.
The A17 mobile processor currently under development will be mass-produced using TSMC’s N3E chipmaking tech, expected to be available in the second half of next year, according to three people familiar with the matter. The A17 will be used in the premium entry in the iPhone line-up scheduled for release in 2023, they said.
N3E is an upgraded version of TSMC’s current 3-nanometer production tech, which is only starting to go into use this year. The next generation of Apple’s M3 chip for its Mac offerings is also set to use the upgraded 3-nm tech, two sources added.
Nanometre size refers to the distance between transistors on a chip. The smaller the number, the more transistors can be squeezed on to a chip, making them more powerful but also more challenging and costly to produce.
N3E will offer better performance and energy efficiency than the first version of the tech, TSMC said in a recent technology symposium in Hsinchu, Taiwan. Industry sources said the upgraded production tech is also designed to be more cost-effective than its predecessor.
As TSMC’s largest customer and the biggest driver for new semiconductor technologies, Apple is still its most loyal partner when it comes to adopting the latest chip technology. The US tech giant will be the first to use TSMC’s first generation of 3-nm technology, using it for some of its upcoming iPads, Nikkei Asia reported earlier.
Previously, Intel told TSMC that it would like to secure 3-nm production by this year or early next year to be among the first wave of adopters like Apple, but it has since delayed its orders to at least 2024, three people told Nikkei Asia.
However, 2023 could mark the second year in a row that Apple uses TSMC’s most advanced chipmaking technology for only a part of its iPhone line-up. In 2022, only the premium iPhone 14 Pro range has adopted the latest A16 core processor, which is produced by TSMC’s 4-nm process technologies, the most advanced currently available. The standard iPhone 14 range uses the older A15, which was used in the iPhone 13 and iPhone 13 Pro models released in the second half of 2021.
Meanwhile, the race is on among chipmakers to roll out ever more advanced production tech. TSMC and Samsung each hopes to be the first to put 3-nm tech into mass production this year. This technology is suitable for all types of central and graphics processors for smartphones, computers and servers, as well as those used in artificial intelligence computing.
Apple, meanwhile, is likely to use the different levels of production tech to introduce greater differences between its premium and non-premium models, according to Dylan Patel, chief analyst with SemiAnalysis. Previously the biggest differences have been in screens and cameras, but this could be expanded to include processors and memory chips, he said.
According to the analyst’s estimate, there is a cost increase of at least 40 per cent for the same area of silicon when moving to 3-nm chips from the 5-nm family, which includes 4-nm chips.
TSMC, Intel and Apple declined to comment.
Commercial Times still believes that the M2 Pro/Max will use TSMC N3. Is this possible?
ctee.com.tw
wccftech.com
蘋果M2打核心戰 台積傳獨吞3奈米大單 - 工商時報
雖然個人電腦（PC）市場需求低迷不振，但蘋果仍將在未來幾個月推出多款新機，而蘋果亦加速第二代Apple Silicon的M2處理器研發及量產，據外電及業界消息，蘋果M2處理器將大打核心戰，可能推出搭載48核心的最高階M2 Extreme搶攻高階PC及工作站應用，晶圓代工龍頭台積電可望獨吞3奈米晶圓代工大單。
Apple Has Reportedly Given TSMC a Large Order to Mass Produce Its M2 Pro, M2 Max and Future SoCs on the Latest 3nm Process
A new report states that TSMC has taken a large order from Apple to mass produce M2 Pro, M2 Max and future chipsets on its 3nm node
wccftech.com
Commercial Times still believes that the M2 Pro/Max will use TSMC N3. Is this possible?
View attachment 2101538
蘋果M2打核心戰 台積傳獨吞3奈米大單 - 工商時報
雖然個人電腦（PC）市場需求低迷不振，但蘋果仍將在未來幾個月推出多款新機，而蘋果亦加速第二代Apple Silicon的M2處理器研發及量產，據外電及業界消息，蘋果M2處理器將大打核心戰，可能推出搭載48核心的最高階M2 Extreme搶攻高階PC及工作站應用，晶圓代工龍頭台積電可望獨吞3奈米晶圓代工大單。Apple Has Reportedly Given TSMC a Large Order to Mass Produce Its M2 Pro, M2 Max and Future SoCs on the Latest 3nm Process
A new report states that TSMC has taken a large order from Apple to mass produce M2 Pro, M2 Max and future chipsets on its 3nm node
Would not be surprised.
Interesting if true. That would suggest a faster/better N3 ramp up than some originally thought.
Also interesting are the M2 Pro vs Max core counts reported in the article’s table. It’s a different scenario than M1 Pro vs Max core counts.
TSMC N3 is significantly different from N5/N4 and earlier processes. Besides being smaller, it has the option of being able to tailor circuitry design to favor high performance, high efficiency, or middle ground of the two. Not just blocks or sections or units, but right down to individual transistors. This has been part of TSMC's roadmap for quite some time (i.e., not a secret), so you can count on that Apple has been working on optimising M2 architecture for the N3 process since before the first M1 hit the shelves, and they have been taping out chips for the GAA-type N2 process since last year. If new M2 products on N3 are not announced in the next couple weeks (in time for Christmas shopping), I will be a bit surprised.
Thank you Steve Jobs for kicking off the modern smartphone revolution 15 years go. The iPhone then Android forced die shrink innovations when Intel foot dragged for better margins.
Wish I bought 4,000 $AAPL @ $78.20 on 20 Jan 2009 and held onto it until today.
Wish I bought 4,000 $AAPL @ $78.20 on 20 Jan 2009 and held onto it until today.
Hopefully, since the N3X process is what the ASi Mac Pro needs...
So lower cost SoC than the Max, more hope for a M2 Pro in a Mac mini...?
Right there with you; I spent $7500 on a PowerTower Pro 225 (64MB RAM/2GB HDD/8MB GPU) & EIAS (student license) in the mid-1990's...
Lost my license dongle in a move, bye bye EIAS...
Should have bought AAPL instead...! ;^p
Nope, I never looked at them again - now the problem is avoiding capital gains so I can't sell them ;-)You must like roller coasters.
Or that the 'early November' announce of the MBP14/16" will be like the June announce of July M2 MBA 13" update. ( If don't start taking orders until early December then not that far off of TSMC HVM mark of Sept-Oct timeframe for the wafer starts. ) There is likely some time 'float' between where Apple gets chips and Apple sends 'the check'. So the bigger, higher volume 'checks' won't clear until 2023 starts.
If Apple started with Rhodes-cop ( M2 Pro) then can get more dies out of a wafer. They didn't "have to" wait for full HVM to get started on the Pro (chop ... i.e., much smaller ) version if most of the objective was to make a smaller die. If there is relatively high margin per working chip they could do modest volumes at first.
That Apple gets lots of folks queued up and all hot and bothered for the "un-obtainum" , conspicuous consumption Holiday buying season laptop . Make 20-40K laptops so that some folks get them and toss most of the rest of the buyers on the "multiple month" wait queue that pragmatically gets filled in 2023.
If most new M2 MPB14/16" laptops have 1-1.5week (or less) ship times in mid-late November, then yeah... there has been some sandbagging on N3 yields and ramp.
Pretty good chance the CPU core count gap between Pro and Max is two E cores. Pretty small area difference (especially at N3 process node). Take the normal full 4 E core block area on the Max and squeeze some space out of the 'chop' to help prop up high volume yield. ( plus probably more "even smaller" choices to make die size smaller). The M1 Max was kind of 'chunky" big for a chiplet. So trimming 2 E cores off it at TSMC 5N make more sense than it does at N3 ( going to get something smaller all around. So don't have to 'nickel and dime' as much. )
In that case, there won't be some huge performance gap on a wide set of workloads. If the App solely stuck to 3-5 P cores there probably wouldn't be much gap at all. The larger value proposition price gap between Pro and Max won't change. It is largely based on change in GPU core count.
GPUs If using 10 GPU core block section then the 20 on Pro is just double plain M2 count (as before in M1). 38 GPU cores instead of 40 is likely an effective yield boosting move. Means can 'loose' two GPU cores to defects and still ship ( e.g., similar to the A14X which shipped one GPU core down the whole run on a new process. )
It turns out TSMC recently said they have not yet started high volume production for N3. They said they will start this quarter, but as of last week it hadn't begun, and my understanding is there is usually at least a 2 month period needed from fresh chips to retail units. So, if they start N3 high volume production in November, that means MacBook Pros in MacRumours geeks hands in January. I guess they could start with orders in December though.
If using late risk production chips for actual initial production units, I wonder what kind of unit numbers that would be able to provide. However, as for starting with just Rhodes Chop, I don't see how that would work. Presumably Apple would want Rhodes Chop - M2 Pro and Rhodes 1C - M2 Max machines sold side-by-side in MacBook Pros.
If its true, then Apple could announce in mid-late November the 3nm M2 pro/max with very limited availability to December and good availability starting with mid January-February ?! This way users dont waste money on a tech that in 3 months can be underwhealmed compared to what could have been, because i dont see apple releasing now M2 pro and after 4-6 months update the M3 pro based on 3nm
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3nm
- M2 Pro
- M2 Max
- M2 Ultra
- M2 Extreme
- A17 Bionic
Imagine if Apple decided to nix the environment and overclock their
- iMac
- Mac mini
- Mac Studio
- Mac Pro
- M2 Pro
- M2 Max
- M2 Ultra
- M2 Extreme
- A17 Bionic
Imagine if Apple decided to nix the environment and overclock their
- iMac
- Mac mini
- Mac Studio
- Mac Pro
There's been previous discussion about whether they can even do that.
Anyway, I wonder if we could just see N4-based M2 parts instead of N3.
@cbum @Boil @Kimmo @cbum
| Date | 20-Jan-2009 | 30-Oct-2022 |
| Year Low | 13.8 | 20-Jan-2009 |
| Forex: $ = ₱ | ₱40.29 | ₱58.11 |
| $/share | $78.20 | $155.74 |
| Pre-Split Share Price | $4,360.72 | |
| X-for-1 Stock Splits | 28 | - |
| Number of Shares (pre split vs post split) | 4,000 | 112,000 |
| Portfolio Value ₱ | ₱12,602,712.00 | ₱1,013,518,542.40 |
| Portfolio Value $ | $312,800.00 | $17,442,880.00 |
| Years between purchase to 1st dividend | 3.56 | - |
| Per Share Last Quarterly Dividend $ | - | $0.23 |
| Total Quarterly Dividend $ | - | $25,760.00 |
| Total Quarterly Dividend ₱ | - | ₱1,496,784.80 |
| Dividend spread out daily ₱ | - | ₱16,403.12 |
| Last 4 Quarters Dividend $ | - | $0.90 |
| Total last 4 Quarters Dividend $ | - | $100,800.00 |
| Total last 4 Quarters Dividend ₱ | - | ₱5,856,984.00 |
| Dividend spread out daily ₱ | - | ₱16,046.53 |
| Date | 2-Jan-1998 | 30-Oct-2022 |
| Year Low | 24.8 | 2-Jan-1998 |
| Forex: $ = ₱ | ₱36.46 | ₱58.11 |
| $/share | $13.50 | $155.74 |
| Pre-Split Share Price | $17,442.88 | |
| X-for-1 Stock Splits | 112 | - |
| Number of Shares (pre split vs post split) | 556 | 62,272 |
| Portfolio Value ₱ | ₱273,601.18 | ₱563,516,309.57 |
| Portfolio Value $ | $7,503.78 | $9,698,241.28 |
| Years between purchase to 1st dividend | 14.62 | - |
| Per Share Last Quarterly Dividend $ | - | $0.23 |
| Total Quarterly Dividend $ | - | $14,322.56 |
| Total Quarterly Dividend ₱ | - | ₱832,212.35 |
| Dividend spread out daily ₱ | - | ₱9,120.14 |
| Last 4 Quarters Dividend $ | - | $0.90 |
| Total last 4 Quarters Dividend $ | - | $56,044.80 |
| Total last 4 Quarters Dividend ₱ | - | ₱3,256,483.10 |
| Dividend spread out daily ₱ | - | ₱8,921.87 |
@Boil
IKR? In 2008 I attempted to sign up with E-Trade for the sole fanboi purpose of buying Apple Inc.
Got intimidated with the documentary requirements. Should have asked for help.
Had $320,000.00 idle money back in January 2009 sitting in the bank.
That's the buying power of $441,139.05 in 2022 money.
We both should be living off dividends by now.
Incidentally January 2009 was the month Bitcoin started at $0.0000000000 = BTC
A friend pointed out to me that he remember it trading at $0.05 = BTC
That's 200 BTC = $1.00
For a dollar you could have bought a 200 BTCs that had an all time high last June 2022 of $68,990.90.
This totals nearly $13.8 million?
IKR? In 2008 I attempted to sign up with E-Trade for the sole fanboi purpose of buying Apple Inc.
Got intimidated with the documentary requirements. Should have asked for help.
Had $320,000.00 idle money back in January 2009 sitting in the bank.
That's the buying power of $441,139.05 in 2022 money.
We both should be living off dividends by now.
Incidentally January 2009 was the month Bitcoin started at $0.0000000000 = BTC
A friend pointed out to me that he remember it trading at $0.05 = BTC
That's 200 BTC = $1.00
For a dollar you could have bought a 200 BTCs that had an all time high last June 2022 of $68,990.90.
This totals nearly $13.8 million?
According to DigiTimes, TSMC N3E will be very expensive.
台積電3奈米代工價突破2萬美元 iPhone 15、GPU漲價有感
全球晶圓代工7奈米先進製程技術大戰高下立判，不僅7奈米EUV取得首勝，5/4奈米在超微(AMD)、蘋果(Apple)、博通(Broadcom)、英特爾(Intel)等擴大下單，以及NVIDIA與高通(Qualcomm)年度大作紛回歸下，雙方差距持續拉開。<br /...
www.digitimes.com.tw