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How do you figure? Go price out a comparable workstation at any competitor or custom builder. Unless you're buying parts and building it yourself, the price is certainly reasonable. There are questions/concerns about the new Mac Pro, but the pricing really isn't one of them.

Okay, so the new Mac Pro is comparable to a competitor's offering already fully assembled and ready to go. However, the competitor's offering is still better value simply because you get an actual computer case where you can put PCI peripherals and hard drives directly into it without having to buy expensive enclosures, or grossly overpriced Thunderbolt accessories just to get adequate storage space.

Enjoy your overpriced "innovative" trash can. True innovation is something that makes life easier, better, and for the most part, more cost effective. The new Mac Pro does none or is none of these things.

This is what happens when designers take over a technology company. Sure everything looks good, but functionality of the hardware suffers greatly. It's getting to the point where we cannot even change our own RAM anymore on Apple computers.

I am willing to bet the G4 Cube was the inspiration for this thing. Despite its failure, the dream of a small powerful computer still stuck in someone's, like Ive's, mind ever since. Despite their belief that they're correcting the shortcomings of the original G4 Cube's design, they've introduced just as large new design flaws that will take a huge amount of extra expense on the part of the consumer to get around.

I cannot predict whether this thing will fail or not, but I sure hope it does. Whether people accept it or not, Apple is really leading the pack with planned obsolescence in the traditional computer industry. It has gotten to the point where even "professional" workstations have been given a much smaller life span.
 
How do you figure? Go price out a comparable workstation at any competitor or custom builder. Unless you're buying parts and building it yourself, the price is certainly reasonable. There are questions/concerns about the new Mac Pro, but the pricing really isn't one of them.

Well they've never really "released" the high end mac pro price. It's always been a built to order that you have to price out yourself.
The price is reasonable, but the configurations shown are a a joke, they're no where near the high-end option that Apple always shows, and certainly not worth waiting months for. 256GB of storage for a Mac Pro? Really? That's a Macbook Air Config isn't it? And, of course, everyone's been clamoring for a Quad, right?

If you show a 12 Core configuration with "High-End" GPUs, and tout it's virtues, at least have the huevos to tell us the price, so we can make a decision by the end of the fiscal year; not give us a couple of dead links with some unknown GPUs (I'm not buying two D500s till I know what one is) and a couple of bottom-end CPUs.

With vital information like knowing that I get power cord and I don't get a keyboard and a mouse I'm ready to budget $10K right now.
 
Intel Xeon E5-2697 v2 @ $2,749.99
SUPERMICRO X9SRE-F Single Socket R @ $349.99 (no DDR3 1866MHz)
2x AMD FirePro W9000 6GB aka D700 @ $3,399.99 each (total $6,799.98)
OCZ RevoDrive 3 960GB @ $3499.99

Total $13,399.95

(Note: no RAM, chassis, power supply included in pricing)

If the new Mac Pro maxed out* from Apple will be cheaper than that, it'll be a good deal!


*Maxed out being 12 core, dual D700 GPUs, and 1TB SSD options (no RAM in pricing, because I wouldn't buy Apple RAM in a Mac Pro either ;)).
 
Advantages:
- More RAM Slots (though has the same 64GB limit as the nMP)

Which is obsolete within the next 12 month because DDR4 doesn't support more than one (16GB, 32GB, 64GB…) DIMM per channel with a max of four channels.

OCZ RevoDrive 3 960GB @ $3499.99

4x 256GB OCZ Vector in RAID0: $1398. PCs come in a bulky, humongous gray box that have enough room to even use 8x128GB, no?
 
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Which is obsolete within the next 12 month because DDR4 doesn't support more than one (16GB, 32GB, 64GB…) DIMM per channel with a max of four channels.



4x 256GB OCZ Vector in RAID0: $1398. PCs come in a bulky, humongous gray box that have enough room to even go completely nuts and use 8x128GB, no?

You bring up a good point; if I built this machine it will come in a huge box, nothing like the new Mac Pro.
 
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For a Hex with 256GB of storage? No, I don't think it could have been, this is a pretty minimal configuration.

I think Apple hasn't released the high-end price yet, because that's all everyone would be talking about.

But it's a 256GB PCIe SSD. I'm just comparing it to the price of my 2010 hexacore Mac Pro.

You are right though. This is a powerful Mac Pro and the two prices Apple have on the web site are for the low end ones. I can't wait to see how much the eight and twelve core Mac Pros with the 1TB SSD and high end graphics cards will cost :eek:
 
4x 256GB OCZ Vector in RAID0: $1398. PCs come in a bulky, humongous gray box that have enough room to even use 8x128GB, no?

Hold on! You put 1 TB in there, that's not fair. The new Mac Pro comes with 256GB standard. :D Use 4x 128GB on that same page (On sale for $105) - Still not fair, that's 512GB, which is double the standard options of the nMP. However, that's only $420. This adds about $150 to the above price, bringing it to $2,815 -- still less than the quad core model and likely much better at common throughput benchmarks.

----------

You bring up a good point; if I built this machine it will come in a huge box, nothing like the new Mac Pro.

I see what you did there. You ignored the amazing advantages of internal storage (namely that you can create a faster, bigger, storage solution for a fraction of the cost) and just focused on the one factor most people on this forum don't care about: size.

It's like I went to 2 different steakhouses, and one serves me a great meal and the other serves me a rotten steak but with a huge side order of carefully-steamed dirty socks. Can't compare the two meals, I got a huge order of something I never wanted with it!

----------

You are right though. This is a powerful Mac Pro and the two prices Apple have on the web site are for the low end ones. I can't wait to see how much the eight and twelve core Mac Pros with the 1TB SSD and high end graphics cards will cost :eek:

:eek: is right... the D700 is modeled after the w9000 (according to all indications). The W9000 retails for $3500 each.

I shudder to think how Apple's going to mark up a 256GB --> 1TB hard drive upgrade. If history is any indication, prepare that 2nd mortgage paperwork.

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Which is obsolete within the next 12 month because DDR4 doesn't support more than one (16GB, 32GB, 64GB…) DIMM per channel with a max of four channels.

[I'll note, as you know, that the nMP only uses DDR3]

Question: Out of curiosity, will Ivy Bridge E or the (old?) E5 series be compatible with DDR4?

If so, you can actually upgrade the mobo and RAM on this machine.

----------

That's true, and if you spend the same amount of money on 60 256GB 7200RPM HDDs running in a RAID config, you'll probably be getting even quicker throughput. My issue is that the specs should be as identical as you can make them. You can buy PCIe SSDs, which the MP uses, so use them in your comparison. Similarly, if you could buy Thunderbolt 2 cards, you'd put them in the comparison too.

By the way: After reading this review it seems that in all metrics, SSD RAID-0's scale beautifully as you add more drives. It seems PCIe SSD is overpriced and offers no advantage in this situation (I was pretty surprised, particularly at random read/write).


This test of SSDs in a RAID 0 array brings to light an interesting effect: adding more drives increases performance and capacity in equal measure. The same conclusion applies both to data throughput and I/O operations per second.



Performance scales almost linearly in our test system, each added drive offering roughly the same increase. When it comes to I/O performance, we did not run into any upper limits or decreasing scaleability when adding drives, so you should be able to extrapolate the results for your own scenario up to the bandwidth and latency limits of your platform architecture. Expanding capacity brings equal performance increases with SSD RAID, which is a first in this area.

Of course, the results cannot be perfectly applied to all RAID systems, but the test brings a key finding: an SSD-based RAID array benefits much more from adding more drives compared to traditional hard drives. The more flash drives involved, the greater their strengths become, especially the I/O performance that is so crucial in the business segment. While you probably won't see RAID 0 arrays like these used in many production servers (they'd be a little more plausible in a video workstation, perhaps), there are other performance-enhancing RAID modes you could use to augment the speed and reliability of a mission-critical system.

iometer_fileserver_queue.png

ssd-raid-performance,L-Z-278135-13.png

iometer_4k_random_reads_queue.png
 
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You can't really compare a non-OEM solution like building your own computer with a OEM computer. It will always be cheaper.

I read this a lot, but I disagree. I can't build a machine anywhere near as cheap as a low end dell on special, the same as I struggle to build a machine with workstation/server parts for compatible prices. Compared to other vendors, I've always felt the pro was one of apples most competitively priced products.

Ignoring the platform, unless you have a requirement for more than one CPU, I don't understand why someone would go with workstation parts. Graphics is a bit more tricky, as the two big vendors (namely nvidia, amd don't have the luxury considering their competition) intentionally gimp their desktop cards through drivers when it comes to opengl (especially relevant for osx) and certain gpgpu paths.
It's the most powerful osx machine you can buy, but I think it's the wrong machine in almost every respect for people that want a high end desktop and completely the wrong machine for serious number crunching - The real-world market for a machine like this seems so incredibly niche to me, I honestly feel it's just a shiny marketing flagship product - keeping a dual (+?) CPU option stuffed in the old Mac Pro box might have convinced me otherwise.
 
But it's a 256GB PCIe SSD. I'm just comparing it to the price of my 2010 hexacore Mac Pro.

You are right though. This is a powerful Mac Pro and the two prices Apple have on the web site are for the low end ones. I can't wait to see how much the eight and twelve core Mac Pros with the 1TB SSD and high end graphics cards will cost :eek:
I've been running a 256SSD in my Hex-Core since it came out three years ago, it was barely big enough for a system drive then, but I wanted the speed. At least back then, you could order some cheap 1TB drive with it, and toss it.

Since I can't add any internal storage on the nMP, I'd be an idiot if I didn't get something to meet my future needs at the onset. I can't see going with anything less than a 512, I just have to wait and see what Apple thinks they can gouge me for on it.
 
The 6 core Mac Pro looks like a bargain against this workstation from dell though. :/



It's also cheaper than a similar offering from BOXX.
 
The 6 core Mac Pro looks like a bargain against this workstation from dell though. :/

[url=http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h2/N19h7m4r3/Tech%20-%20Geekiness/ScreenShot2013-10-24at215211_zps4445dbe5.png]Image[/URL]

It's also cheaper than a similar offering from BOXX.

There is a part called "value" that is hard to gauge.

There is a thread about GT640 where I benched a DDR3 GT640 (there are faster DDR5 ones) against an 8800GT. So current entry level vs High End From 2008. The GT640 won.

So while the Dell and Boxx workstations can be kept relevant, the vast majority of nMPs will be stuck with cards that are ALREADY a year old. And I'm pretty sure that D300 might even be older.

Imagine if your 2008 had an oddball 2600XT bolted inside and only way to upgrade was to find an oddball 8800GT that was in parts channel or from scrapped 2008 pro. There would a lot less people still using 2008s as a result.

That is of course Apple's plan. You will have to buy a whole new machine.

Have a look at the 640 vs 8800 and think about how useful the D300 or D500 is going to be in 2 or 3 years. I think nMP will not hold value over time.
 
Yah, I know, if you look at my sig you can clearly see I upgraded my old Mac Pro, which was an early 2009.

Although We'll know for certain in, or after December if it will be rather difficult to replace the GPU's in the nMP.

Also if I was going to buy one I certainly would not bother with the D300, or D500 in the slightest. You don't need to tell me about all this.
We both know most people won't bother to upgrade their systems, hell there are still people on this forum running MP's with the 2600XT, 8800GT, and 1900XTX's.

Most will buy a machine, keep it, until it's slow and replace it. Apple have built the nMP to capitalise on it.

I'll most likely hold onto my system for quite some time, and will most likely replace my little GTX660 with a new card if AMD and NVIDIA's future GPU's have support like the current ones do.
 
Interesting build… but there are several differences between the Mac Pro and your build.

a) PCIe SSD is considerably faster than SSD
b) Dual 7970's ≠ Dual AMD FirePro D500's or D700's
c) Obviously it's missing Thunderbolt 2 (begin the merit debate)
 
Intel Xeon E5-2697 v2 @ $2,749.99
SUPERMICRO X9SRE-F Single Socket R @ $349.99 (no DDR3 1866MHz)
2x AMD FirePro W9000 6GB aka D700 @ $3,399.99 each (total $6,799.98)
OCZ RevoDrive 3 960GB @ $3499.99

Great folding rig, now I just need a sponsor ... ;)
better: two E5

Actually the new e5v2 seems amazing nice and efficient CPU, carrying a solid price tag though.
 
I see what you did there. You ignored the amazing advantages of internal storage (namely that you can create a faster, bigger, storage solution for a fraction of the cost) and just focused on the one factor most people on this forum don't care about: size.

It's like I went to 2 different steakhouses, and one serves me a great meal and the other serves me a rotten steak but with a huge side order of carefully-steamed dirty socks. Can't compare the two meals, I got a huge order of something I never wanted with it!

I think I've been to that steakhouse, try the onion rings with bleu cheese.
 
The 6 core Mac Pro looks like a bargain against this workstation from dell though. :/

[url=http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h2/N19h7m4r3/Tech%20-%20Geekiness/ScreenShot2013-10-24at215211_zps4445dbe5.png]Image[/URL]

It's also cheaper than a similar offering from BOXX.

That is a E5 2643.. does that mean is actually 2x 4 cores? = 8 = 16 threads? or is it just 4 and 8 with hyper-threading. The E5 1600's are the singles. (ie. the 1620 in the nMP Quad) .. or am I way off.

I've upgraded my GPU every 2 yrs probably since '99 ... I have a MP 1,1 that an imac would trounce these days (in fact a maxed out imac i7, 780M looks pretty great next to the base Quad nMP).. I expect to spend about $5K every 5 yrs for a new workstation I use at home. But, 6 and 7 yrs is painful, and I'd love to upgrade every 3 but I'm too cheap I guess and stretch to 5 by putting probably $1k into the machine each year.

I think the one saving grace for the 6,1 nMP is if in 2 years when the 7,1 MP comes out the 6,1 owners can upgrade to those cards they ship with. Apple did it way back when people complained for the 8800's etc which came with the 3,1? .. I've had an 1900xt, 8800GT, and 5770 in my MP1,1.
 
That is a E5 2643.. does that mean is actually 2x 4 cores? = 8 = 16 threads? or is it just 4 and 8 with hyper-threading. The E5 1600's are the singles. (ie. the 1620 in the nMP Quad) .. or am I way off.

It's a single quad core, so 4 physical cores. 8 threads in total It's also a sandy-bridge EP chip so a generation behind the nMP's one.

http://ark.intel.com/products/64587/

Note that the E5-1620 is also a sandy-bridge, so I doubt that's what's being used in the nMP.
 

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well wasn't the 2010-2012 hex core 3699? .. seems right in line i guess

That is not a sensible way to view it. At one point a quad core G5 cost $3300 stock. Today you can find that in the cheapest imac due to shifts in what constitute standard components. Apple initially priced the 6 core at $3700 when the cpu recommended retail price was $1000. More than a year after it dropped to $600, Apple lowered the price of the 6 core model to $3000. It included a boost to 6GB of ram. The price of dimms has continued to drop for the most part. Notebook memory is a little different, as sodimms top out at 8GB sticks. Anyway the point being what is considered reasonable or viable at a given price point has to be determined by the context of when it goes on sale. Counting solely X86 cores, you may be buying less performance today for $3000 than you could before. I assume at least with Apple's own software, they will be aggressively pushing gpu based computation to justify the value of these machines.


Yes, and doesn't the hexacore nMP include more RAM than the 2010/2012 one at the base price?

Ram is pretty cheap at this point. the 2012 bumped it from 3GB to 6GB. Looking at the price of 3 in 2010 compared to 12 today, you aren't far off.
 
a) PCIe SSD is considerably faster than SSD

Nope, 3x Samsung 840 Pros in RAID 0 is actually faster than what Apple is claiming for their PCIe SSD (1200MB/s).

b) Dual 7970's ≠ Dual AMD FirePro D500's or D700's

In Windows, this is certainly true because of the drivers. It's particularly true because a lot of these professional tasks don't seem to scale when adding more cards. Whereas I can Crossfire Four 7970's in this machine at 1/2 the cost of a single W9000, I don't think it would lead to better performance.

In Mac OS X, this is probably not going to be the case, as the drivers will be the same.

c) Obviously it's missing Thunderbolt 2 (begin the merit debate)

There is no debate. It's like complaining this doesn't have Firewire 800. TB2 is basically useless when you have 7 PCIe slots and internal storage.

----------

That is not a sensible way to view it. At one point a quad core G5 cost $3300 stock.

I really don't get this mentality of comparing the old Mac Pro to the New one.. the old one was basically 4 year old technology.

I might add that the 2006 and 2008 Mac Pros held their own against PC hardware when they were released... maybe the 2009 too... Then they kept the price the same and didn't upgrade the feature-set or GPU for 4 years.

It's pretty easy to win an argument saying your new model is X times better than the old one when you neglected your product for 4 years.
 
Nope, 3x Samsung 840 Pros in RAID 0 is actually faster than what Apple is claiming for their PCIe SSD (1200MB/s).

But isn't that a moot point - since the Mac Mini Pro forces you to put the Samsung 840 Pros behind the T-Bolt bottleneck?

Or, are you going to sacrifice your first born to buy three T-Bolt RAID controllers and software RAID-0 those disks?

The trash can Pro is a great upgrade to the Mac Mini. It's a horrible regression from the Mac Pro.
 
I really don't get this mentality of comparing the old Mac Pro to the New one.. the old one was basically 4 year old technology.

I might add that the 2006 and 2008 Mac Pros held their own against PC hardware when they were released... maybe the 2009 too... Then they kept the price the same and didn't upgrade the feature-set or GPU for 4 years.

It's pretty easy to win an argument saying your new model is X times better than the old one when you neglected your product for 4 years.

It is, but I was mainly concerned with what that $3000 really buys you today. I don't spite them for using a 1620v2 or some of the cheaper cards to control costs. I'm just surprised that those things were coupled with a price hike, especially when considering the potential costs of some thunderbolt peripherals. If the price alignment was the same as the 2012 model, we would the hex cpu as the base option. I say that because both are listed as $600 cpus by intel.
 
I see what you did there. You ignored the amazing advantages of internal storage (namely that you can create a faster, bigger, storage solution for a fraction of the cost) and just focused on the one factor most people on this forum don't care about: size.

It's like I went to 2 different steakhouses, and one serves me a great meal and the other serves me a rotten steak but with a huge side order of carefully-steamed dirty socks. Can't compare the two meals, I got a huge order of something I never wanted with it!


Guilty as charged! :p

Though your analogy is pretty nasty. :eek:

I think a better analogy is one restaurant serves a 8 oz prime cut (new Mac Pro) where as the other serves a 24 oz shank with a choice of sides (highly configurable old Mac Pro). ;)

And I ignored the advantages of expandable internal storage, because I actually want a smaller size and compact footprint. If I reason I don't haul my current Mac Pro around is because it's difficult to do so.
 
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