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Zirel

Suspended
Jul 24, 2015
2,196
3,008
Good points. Apple has its eggs in one basket. The iPhone like many smartphones can now only be incremental, so its losing the aura, as the aura played out in the past. The incidence of bugs and hardware issues is getting to be a feature. The 6 was a game changer, great sales, but it wasn't. many sales came from users going back to Apple as they finally have a proper sized phone, and Apple users who interrupted their upgrade path to grab one. Im sure the 6S series are down, a lot. The 7 will be thinner and lighter, and bendgate will probably become a reality rather than an artificially created news frenzy. If it loses the audio port, expect revolt. There isn't really a lot going for an iPhone now, its been done. Eggs in one basket allows you to excel if that egg is great, but when its just ok and fine, thats a while lot of risk. Computer sakes are steady, iPads are down, the Watch and Apple TV are mere drops. While there is inherently nothing wrong, the upsides don't now exist IMHO

You talk like Apple is run by a bunch of fools that don't know what they are doing.

You expect everything to go wrong and nothing to go right!

Seriously bugs? In what? I don't have any bugs on my iOS and OS X devices and I'm running a beta on my 3 main devices!

So much bull on the press that's easy to mistake the clickbait from the reality.

When Google and Microsoft fails, they are all COWARDS. And don't report, but the costumers feel and return their products and jump ship.

Face the reality they are writing for kids and underdeveloped countries,doesn't matter.
 

MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,481
3,493
NJ
Incredible that it's still down. I just bought a significant position in Apple at an average of $105 but would've waited for it to hit $96 if I had realized it still has room to travel down. I'd give it a day or two then buy in -- great bargain on a mostly blue chip stock.
 

ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,335
3,012
Between the coasts
Good points. Apple has its eggs in one basket. The iPhone like many smartphones can now only be incremental, so its losing the aura, as the aura played out in the past. The incidence of bugs and hardware issues is getting to be a feature. The 6 was a game changer, great sales, but it wasn't. many sales came from users going back to Apple as they finally have a proper sized phone, and Apple users who interrupted their upgrade path to grab one. Im sure the 6S series are down, a lot. The 7 will be thinner and lighter, and bendgate will probably become a reality rather than an artificially created news frenzy. If it loses the audio port, expect revolt. There isn't really a lot going for an iPhone now, its been done. Eggs in one basket allows you to excel if that egg is great, but when its just ok and fine, thats a while lot of risk. Computer sakes are steady, iPads are down, the Watch and Apple TV are mere drops. While there is inherently nothing wrong, the upsides don't now exist IMHO

If "smartphones can now only be incremental," then all the factors that follow are nearly meaningless. Once model-to-model changes become boring, brand loyalty becomes far more important. If the last iPhone was a satisfying product, you'll buy another. Add the ever-deepening and broadening infrastructure...

It's not that every Apple user has to be invested in every Apple product, but if one person loves their Watch, another is happy with Apple Music, another their Mac... you have a huge population of users who are not likely to change brands. That loyal customer base functions as an annuity. As long as nearly nobody leaves, any new products and customers added provide the necessary growth. And the world is hardly tapped-out for new iPhone owners, even if the USA and Europe are mature markets. Today China, tomorrow India, Indonesia, Brazil, eventually Africa...

The whole "all eggs in one basket" mentality is misplaced. There's this expectation that Apple's position is as fragile as Nokia's once was - one bad quarter, and someone else will own the business. What is missed in this scenario is that the move to smartphones was not a fad, it was an epochal change, both for the telephone and the computer. It merged the markets for pagers, cell phones and Blackberry into a single device, and added the flexibility of a general-purpose computer. The computing power made the smart phone camera competitive with the conventional point-and-shoot and camcorder. Music and video player, game console, ebook reader... you know the list.

Telephones are a necessity, and wireless-telephone-plus-computer turned out to be a home run combination. At this point, it's hard to imagine what new feature(s) could be added that would so change the fundamental nature of the device that the world would abandon ship for a new paradigm. Everyone is already doing voice control, which is the (necessary) replacement for the keyboard. Google Glass hasn't taken the world by storm. Next comes, what, bio-implants and direct mind control? Definitely not something that's just around the corner.

So what if iPhone becomes a stable business, rather than a growth business, so long as Apple continues to leverage its position to introduce new product categories that extend the ecosystem? Wearables, Home Kit, Health Kit, Car Play, Apple Music, Apple TV, Apple Pay... those are the growth markets of the future. All have far less penetration than iPhone, all have the potential to grow substantially before hitting their plateaus. None need to have universal appeal or usage to be a success. All reinforce the relationship with the core product, iPhone.

I certainly appreciate that it's impossible to remain a growth stock forever, and growth stocks are extra-sexy; a chance to make a fortune, rather than a steady living. But a highly-profitable, dividend-paying business that grows at a moderate rate is called a "Blue Chip," and there ain't nothing wrong with that.

If you look at Apple's historic P/E ratios, the market hasn't really considered Apple a "growth stock with a future" - a company expected to double and more on a regular basis (like, say, Google or Amazon that trade with P/E two and three times that of Apple, or some of the "next big things" that sell at ten times Apple's P/E). The P/E has remained in a fairly narrow range, often lower than that of the S&P 500, since before iPhone was introduced. The price rose in response to real earnings, and, at most, hopes for the next 12 months/latest model. The people who were most richly rewarded were rewarded despite the market's overall expectations (as embodied in the P/E). When buying low and selling high, they weren't selling to speculators who had finally realized they might make a killing - they were selling to a market that was as skeptical in 2015 as it was in 2005. Their capital gains came from the company's actual performance. That is a damn rare thing in investing.

The skepticism is heavier now than it was six months ago, yet the fundamentals aren't likely to change anytime soon. Consider this; if the earnings advice Apple announced at the last quarterly conference call turned out to be dramatically incorrect, Apple was legally obligated to issue an interim update to those projections. They certainly would have known that more than a month ago - when all the "experts" were already convinced there was bad news ahead. Yet nothing was announced. Chances are, Apple will announce results that are consistent with Apple's projections (Apple is not responsible for the over-enthusiastic projections of others). It's only the projections for the upcoming quarter that are "in play." Is it at all likely they'll be worse than the market has already anticipated?

No, the future will be much like the past. The chorus from the "It's all over for Apple" crowd will continue to dampen demand for the stock. Apple "believers" will continue to be rewarded solely for Apple's actual performance, and punished whenever the non-believers think they smell blood. The believers will never see the price go up simply because the non-believers finally see the light - by definition, the non-believers will never see the light.
 
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Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
It is not nuts at all. Cars are a necessity in our everyday life while a smartphone is not.

You could have fooled me...... Mobile phone may not be a necessity, but in this day and age, most people act like that they are...

Users can't go anyway with them, and the moment a question arises about leaving them at home, we all cringe at the thought of even lasting 2 seconds without tweeting from our iOS device...

I would argue cars are not either... We don't need cars.. In fact, u can leave your car at home and catch the train, bus, or walk (within distance)..

Cars are luxury. Depends on the situation, we can get along fine without them if needed... People got along fine with horse and carts too back in the day.
 

Fancuku

macrumors 65816
Oct 8, 2015
1,023
2,663
PA, USA
Cars are luxury. Depends on the situation, we can get along fine without them if needed... People got along fine with horse and carts too back in the day.
For you it may be a luxury but for most of us it is a necessity. I couldn't go anywhere without my car.
 

ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,335
3,012
Between the coasts
For you it may be a luxury but for most of us it is a necessity. I couldn't go anywhere without my car.

Yep, it's completely situational. One person's luxury is another's necessity. The place you live, your work, and your social life are major variables.

What seems more important to me is how both the telephone and car have transformed the world we live in. Both have destroyed barriers to human interaction and altered our very concept of what can be accomplished in the course of a day. While they may not be necessities in the grand scheme of things (one can be a subsistence farmer without them), they are key enablers of the world we live in. It would be very difficult to turn back the clock to a time when a person in transit was incommunicado, or even that the average person was likely to be in-transit as a routine occurrence.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
I think the recent and continued volatility of the market, means there's really no rhyme or reason for Apple's stock price decline. Its just following other stocks as they get pummeled by outside conditions.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
For you it may be a luxury but for most of us it is a necessity. I couldn't go anywhere without my car.

Not really focused here on the user,,, I was merely coming from the fact people lived in a time well before cars and they did just fine..... Givin that, i would treat all things we were once used to "a luxoury"

Even though there would be issues with this, its not to say we have to have them, just because we just got used to them.

And givin' Apple's stock is down, I can only say 1 reason only... Because they don't deal in the U.S .

(ok... 2 things... Greed and non-US)
 

benzslrpee

macrumors 6502
Jan 1, 2007
406
26
bulk of MS revenue is recurring software and licensing. typically this is more valuable compared to one-time product sale. Wall St sees a couple things impacting Apple in 2016
  • smart phone saturation in heavy buying markets
  • the appreciation of USD compared to Euro, RMB, Yen, Rupee etc
given smartphone is ~67% of total revenue the above two points are worrisome. then you mix in the economic uncertainty in China the outlook starts looking even dimmer

in this case Wall St does have a point. MS is largely a software company built on recurring revenue, Apple is a hardware company based on one-time sales. these are inherently two different companies with very different operating characteristics

yes many people fret over Starbucks. bad coffee crop yields, unpredictable weather etc all impacts their stock.

Spot on list from Philip Elmer Dewitt over at Fortune (god I hate their website):

http://fortune.com/2016/01/01/apple-stock-2015-whimper/?xid=yahoo_fortune
  • Heavy option activity
  • Journalism’s broken business model
  • CNBC
  • Ignorance
  • Wall Street myopia
  • Perception
PED brings up some good points. Microsoft currently has a PE of 37, Apple's is 11. Wall Street really believes Microsoft has 3x the prospects of Apple? Based on what, exactly? A race to the bottom cloud business where Amazon can undercut everyone because they don't need to make a profit? Also, all the worries and constant fretting over iPhone. Do people fret over Starbucks because all they do is sell coffee or Ford because all they do is sell cars? Some car companies have a higher PE than Apple. That seems nuts to me. Does Wall Street really think in 2016 everyone is going to stop buying smartphones? Seriously?
 

MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,481
3,493
NJ
I'm dying over here.

If only I had known the stock was about to drop to $95 constantly for a week.
 

newlifer

macrumors member
Jun 7, 2014
87
26
does anyone remember what happened when steve jobs left apple. the times are a-changin guys
 

navaira

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,934
5,161
Amsterdam, Netherlands
There's only one thing that can be done, put me in charge of Apple. Trust me. I've had a one-man business once and it lasted a good year before hitting the ground! Tim Cook has NOTHING on me.

Are there any other big companies whose stock goes 5% down upon announcing record earnings?
 

ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,335
3,012
Between the coasts
bulk of MS revenue is recurring software and licensing. typically this is more valuable compared to one-time product sale. Wall St sees a couple things impacting Apple in 2016
  • smart phone saturation in heavy buying markets
  • the appreciation of USD compared to Euro, RMB, Yen, Rupee etc
given smartphone is ~67% of total revenue the above two points are worrisome. then you mix in the economic uncertainty in China the outlook starts looking even dimmer

in this case Wall St does have a point. MS is largely a software company built on recurring revenue, Apple is a hardware company based on one-time sales. these are inherently two different companies with very different operating characteristics

yes many people fret over Starbucks. bad coffee crop yields, unpredictable weather etc all impacts their stock.

It's an overly-simplistic view of both companies, but that's the way of the world.

Microsoft's stable source of recurring revenue is due to Office. Huge, without a doubt. Windows, however, is far more at risk. The worldwide PC market is shrinking, and Microsoft has not been a significant player in Mobile, its replacement. It's harder to classify Windows as recurring; upgrades are voluntary, replacement of older PCs with new PCs less sure than it used to be.

Apple's official source of recurring revenues is Services. While Services is a damned big business by most measures, it has to get significantly larger to change Apple's overall complexion as a company, and we don't know yet whether Apple Music and Apple TV will pan out.

What we're left with is the question of whether a Mac, iPhone, or iPad can be considered a form of recurring revenue. Traditionally, accountants would have to say "no." Certainly, if you classify a smart phone as a "gadget," (as some analysts do), how can you expect a customer to buy more of them? There's hardly enough certainty here to amend GAAP to allow factors like hardware replacement cycles and brand loyalty to reclassify "one-time sales" as "recurring revenue."

There's a huge chunk of Apple's Services business that exists solely to ensure that the hardware business resembles recurring revenue, rather than one-time sale. Free OS and software upgrades??? If Microsoft did that, they'd have zero recurring revenue. iCloud? Maps? Apple's not selling ads (unlike Google). "Stickiness" and Customer Satisfaction is what turns Apple's one-time sales into recurring revenue, and it seems to work very, very well. But in the end, these are "off balance sheet" factors. When the market (as a whole) loves a company, such factors are used to justify stupendous P/E ratios. When the market is skeptical (as it always has been about Apple's future), then they're ignored.

Yeah, Tim and Luca took a shot at this, within the constraints of conventional accounting and securities law; a supplemental document reporting one billion devices in current use; nearly all of which are connected to iTunes and App Store. But only "believers" are going to pay attention to that. One analyst went so far as to scoff, suggesting that Services revenue should be much higher if there are one billion devices tapped into the services business. The Services transaction totals are much higher, as Luca explained - since Apple's sales of media and third-party software are on the "agency model" they can report only Apple's 30% commission as Revenue, not the other 70% that is passed along to the record labels, movie studios, and developers. If this was another company, someone would have latched onto the notion of "float" - billions of dollars spending a brief time in Apple's bank accounts, earning additional revenue for Apple. But this is Apple, where the term "healthy skepticism" takes on a whole new meaning.

Here's the thing about Services. Just how much services revenue per device do you need before it can meaningfully change the complexion of the company? On high-cost devices like iPhones, iPads, and Macs, it's a hard nut to crack. If we assume the life of an average smart phone is 3 years and a computer 5 years... you'd need to see something like $150/year per device, rather than $24 ($6 billion in quarterly revenue annualized, divided by 1 billion devices in use). I can see Services growing to be Apple's second-largest business segment - it's already close. But if you added all the hardware-based segments together... Services will likely always be supplemental income.

So it's not about Services as an identifiable business segment. It'll always be about "stickiness." And most analysts will continue to wash that sticky stuff off their hands before they sit down to pontificate.
 
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navaira

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,934
5,161
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Buy now, wait for iPhone sales to slow down, Apple Watch and iPads to be discontinued, Apple Music shut down and all Macs but Mac Pro 2013 to be removed from market, PROFIT watching shares jumping towards $200!
 
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MrAverigeUser

macrumors 6502a
May 20, 2015
895
397
europe
If you have a look at the quarterly report from yesterday, you see:apple does not just have most eggs in one bag, they have more and more eggs in this bag.

Nearly all the rest of their products are losing importance or (still) not of importance.

1) Only iPhone revenues are really growing/stable. The last 12 Months they sold only 300.000 more iPhones than before. That means stagnation, only compensated by higher prices.
2) Huawei, samsung, Nokia and some others are strong competitors. By technologic view, they are superior (samsung, Nokia) or getting nearer and nearer, being at the same time less expensive (for example Huawei).
3) Tim Cook started already a trick to hide the saturation in iPhone selling's by forcing yearly exchange-Contracts with providers. IN the first year this will compensate, after that the second-hand-market will let prices of used equipment (and the exchanged and refurbished ones, that apple must take back to sell a new one) let more and more go down.
4) From technological point of view, there is since years already stagnation/Saturation: In ALL product lines people get conscious that "More performing" and "thinner" has reached its asymptotic limits of relevance. This "more" is getting irrelevant and more and more people start to recognize this.
5) 800-1000 USD for a (smart) phone??? Are you kidding? Also here, there are limits being reached/surpassed.
6) In the western industrial world (North America, western Europe) middle-claw is melting down.
Eastern Europe, China and India did compensate, but how long? Russian market is dead. China is in a veritable crisis for years to come and Huawei will profit in China from lower prices. As for india: They will NOT compensate for the saturation and melting markets in nearly the whole world.
7) Customer Loyality: longtime loyal (Pro-)customers are getting more and more skeptic: Soldered Disks, soldered Ram, glued batteries. glittery design does not lead to more productivity. Lots of bugs in OSX and IOS are bad publicity. And no chance to upgrade Macs after the sale - the first customers begin to get angry about that.
8) revenues of iPod, iPad are constantly sinking since 1-2 years, already cannibalized by iPhones with the same features, since 5" screens also let consumer-iPads get obsolete.. Sold Macs are resting more or less stable. Marketshare is getting more, but not by selling much more Macs, by fact this is only because of stable number of Sold Macs in a worldwide shrinking market. Apple is not leading anymore, they aren´t as innovative as others.
Lenovo is growing. Surface was long before "iPad Pro" - and Dell XP15 (just an example) is a real challenger for MBP.
As for OSX: Windows 10 is stable and very fresh. And Microsoft does not throw a new OS full of bugs on the market every year...
9) Spotify and Deezer and many others share the streaming market. apple is entering too late. At the same time Amazon is competing with iTunes and streaming will let shrink rapidly the model of SELLING music as iTunes does. Even ALDI is entering the streaming market… As for electronic books: Amazon is by far the world leader.
10) apple watch is dead as all "Smartwatches". Nothing but short-living, trendy fashion.
11) "Titan" project: Leading manager just left apple. The classic automobile-industry is not as dump as Tim Cook believes. R&D of cars is much more complex than Tim Cook believes. It´s more than letting solder someone standard- electronic things together - somewhere in China. Tesla is already producing and google will enter - already too much US-enterprises in the boat. And people will buy less cars, but share them more and more. Google did understand, apple does NOT.
Volkswagen spent the most of ALL enterprises worldwide in R&D in 2013 and 2014. Apple not even 10% of that what VW spent. apple is on 23rd place on the list of investments in R&D. BTW: Microsoft is in the 2nd place on the record-listing after VW… so much for investments in REALWORLD Innovation...

In 1-2 Years the smartphone market will have changed. More and more people will stop to buy every year a "new" Smartphone for about 800-1000 USD which is in fact nearly the same as before. Smartphones are about to get boring...There will be soon other toys of interest. FASHION (iPhones and iPads and the new MBPs are more and more Jony Ive´s ridiculous lifestyle-FASHION-Products, not working machines) is a very volatile market! Shure that apple will not be the future Trendsetter any more.. nor are they innovative….they aren´t since years.... They just follow other Trendsetters.
The last Trendsetting for apple was the iPad. Once upon a time….
 
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newlifer

macrumors member
Jun 7, 2014
87
26
I expect 40-60 percent fall from current price. apple has reached its peak and without a killer new product the only way is down.. 6s plus is as excellent as was the original mac which led to steve's departure.. the market is over saturated, there's no innovation and there will be a global slowdown. I don't believe in the car.. be careful with your money
 
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