Why? Could you elaborate what's in the changes in iOS 10.2 that makes you suspect such a thing?
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iPad Pro 87W USB-C charger doesn't charge 12.9" iPad Pro @ 29W
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Why? Could you elaborate what's in the changes in iOS 10.2 that makes you suspect such a thing?
Well, I'm about to put the cat among the pigeons...
Apple has updated a support document. @butterburger may be on to something:
Unfortunately I haven't got a 61W or 87W adapter handy to test this.
Apple has updated a support document. @butterburger may be on to something:
Unfortunately I haven't got a 61W or 87W adapter handy to test this.
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^That's interesting. The page says it was updated on November 10th. Hmm.
2 weeks ago I picked up a 12.9" iPad Pro and just after I ordered a 29W charger and USB-C to Lightning cable along with it. I remember vividly the USB-C to Lightning cable product page had that type of wording:
"Here's what you can do with the USB-C Lightning cable: Fast Charge your iPad Pro 12.9-inch...." I remember being happy to see that mentioned as it was the reason I was purchasing the cable.
When I look at the product page for the USB-C to Lightning cable, I now see this wording:
I wonder if that was changed recently. Or if I'm totally out to lunch, haha.
I do have to say though, using the 29W to charge the 12.9 is such a nice option. Felt like it took forever to charge it with 12W previously.
2 weeks ago I picked up a 12.9" iPad Pro and just after I ordered a 29W charger and USB-C to Lightning cable along with it. I remember vividly the USB-C to Lightning cable product page had that type of wording:
"Here's what you can do with the USB-C Lightning cable: Fast Charge your iPad Pro 12.9-inch...." I remember being happy to see that mentioned as it was the reason I was purchasing the cable.
When I look at the product page for the USB-C to Lightning cable, I now see this wording:
I wonder if that was changed recently. Or if I'm totally out to lunch, haha.
I do have to say though, using the 29W to charge the 12.9 is such a nice option. Felt like it took forever to charge it with 12W previously.
Very interesting
. Unfortunately I'm on vacation right now in Canada so I can't do any testing for now. I'll see if I can snag another adapter on the way back home for testing.
Very interesting
Heyo. I was searching this topic since this exact topic was bugging me, and I was really impressed to see so much informed discussion about this. Glad to see everybody is as concerned as I am about cross-compatibility, even the Fruitier Side of the Force.
(USB-PD spec now says BC1.2 DCP is the only permitted D+/D- advertisement on Type-C, but iPads and iPhones require Apple 2.4a/12w advertisement. It's been causing some headaches when talking with companies... they're interested in "compatibility" with Apple devices, to the point of breaking everything else, even vanilla USB!)
I noticed you guys can't get very good data since Apple locks down the system. I actually have a USB-PD Analyzer from TotalPhase (donated, they were very generous) and a Google/Plugable "Twinkie" (donated from Plugable, again -- these guys rock). This lets me see exactly what is being negotiated and drawn from the Type-C USB-PD interface.
http://www.totalphase.com/products/usb-power-delivery-analyzer/
http://plugable.com/products/usbc-tkey/
Normally I go to my local Apple Store and futz around with their floor models. (They're kinda gotten used to me walking in and taking datalogs with lab equipment.
) And I actually bought an 87W Apple Charger and C-to-Lightning cable recently too, even though I don't own a Macbook Pro nor iPad Pro.If you guys are interested (and can point me to where the data would do the most good), I can make a trip to the store today and log how the 87W actually behaves on an iPad Pro. Would need to get the Store Manager's permission though.
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The original Apple C-to-Lightning cable has some fancy USB-PD controller chip jammed into it. That's what makes it so expensive (beyond the typical Apple premium), and allows it to fast-charge the iPad Pro at 14.5v/2a using USB-PD.
https://plus.google.com/102612254593917101378/posts/U9FTbvVNnZD
The iPad Pro (likely) communicates over the TI SDQ onewire protocol to the USB-PD chip inside the C-to-Lightning cable, which then (likely) negotiates 14.5v/2a as a USB-PD SNK. This is all super-duper proprietary, hence why I say likely, and I sincerely doubt someone's managed to reverse engineer it yet.
I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that counterfeit C-to-Lightning cable is just a "dumb resistor" C-to-femaleA (legacy device) adapter chained to a A-to-Lightning (legacy host) internally. Lightning cables have been cracked by now, so that's likely how and why they're faking MFi.
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJ1M2AM/A/usb-c-to-usb-adapter
+
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD818AM/A/lightning-to-usb-cable-1-m
=
Counterfeit BC Master
https://forums.macrumors.com/goto/post?id=23987762#post-23987762
In other words: the counterfeit (likely) entirely lacks the USB-PD chip. Therefore can only charge like a regular A-to-Lightning cable at 5v/2.4a rates, only on chargers with Apple 2.4a/12w signaling on the D+/D- lines. The only way to prove this would be to probe the counterfeit with some USB-PD traffic on the CC line. If it responds, it has a PD chip. If it doesn't, it's a "dumb" resistor.
And all this is happening because Apple is breaking spec in a highly proprietary manner. First with Lightning [which isn't USB], then with 14.5v [which isn't a standard voltage level]. Now end users have no way of telling what will or won't work short of using a $500 USB-PD analyzer.
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We are interested. Please bring along to test too a non-Apple PD PSU. With your analyser instrument, please observe whether iPad Pro+MacBook Pro-C PSU run at nine volt, or twenty volt (top range).
I think your main obstacle is to access an iPad Pro, when its battery is of a low state of charge. Because store display models are usually plugged-in, you likely will find their batteries are already topped-up.
I got some traffic dumps, but unfortunately the data is very depressing. Apple 9.7" iPad Pro, Apple 87W USB-PD charger, and Apple C-to-Lightning cable.
The 87W charger:
The Apple 87W adapter only advertises 5v/2.4a voltage levels. That's it. No 9v, no 20v. Something is very very wrong. It has inappropriate USB-PD packet incrementing (no ACK), and bursts-of-four of packet ID.
The C-to-Lightning:
Also, the C-to-Lightning cord never does any USB-PD traffic negotiation. It just acts like a "dumb" USB-C resistor-based device, and draws ~2A of current. Is the firmware in the C-to-Lightning USB-PD controller defective? Is it locked to 14.5v, or have some kind of voltage recognition bug?
The iPad Pro 9.7":
This 9.7" iPad Pro doesn't seem to request a higher voltage.... does only the 12.9" request >5v? This pad was full (~98%), but was the only one available to me to test. (They pulled it from the back, didn't want to push my luck.)
Summary:
Something is very very wrong. The fact the Apple 87w charger doesn't advertise the 9v or 20v levels is extremely concerning. This screams there is a defect/bug in Apple's own equipment that they are trying to cover up/work around....
The 87W charger:
The Apple 87W adapter only advertises 5v/2.4a voltage levels. That's it. No 9v, no 20v. Something is very very wrong. It has inappropriate USB-PD packet incrementing (no ACK), and bursts-of-four of packet ID.
The C-to-Lightning:
Also, the C-to-Lightning cord never does any USB-PD traffic negotiation. It just acts like a "dumb" USB-C resistor-based device, and draws ~2A of current. Is the firmware in the C-to-Lightning USB-PD controller defective? Is it locked to 14.5v, or have some kind of voltage recognition bug?
The iPad Pro 9.7":
This 9.7" iPad Pro doesn't seem to request a higher voltage.... does only the 12.9" request >5v? This pad was full (~98%), but was the only one available to me to test. (They pulled it from the back, didn't want to push my luck.)
Summary:
Something is very very wrong. The fact the Apple 87w charger doesn't advertise the 9v or 20v levels is extremely concerning. This screams there is a defect/bug in Apple's own equipment that they are trying to cover up/work around....
Yes! Only the 12.9" iPad Pro does fast charging (i.e. 14.5V 2A).
Yes! Only the 12.9" iPad Pro does fast charging (i.e. 14.5V 2A).
Well, in that case unfortunately this is as far as I go. I cannot afford a $800 purchase at this time. Despite the store person's suggestion, I don't feel it would be ethical to purchase and return it without a concrete reason.
(I only got the 29W charger only because I thought it would fast-charge my Nexus 6P, which it did not since it was a noncompliant 1.5A signal. And the Belkin TB3-40 2m cord didn't work, since it was a noncompliant active cable. So those were valid exchanges.)
This is the one downside of being unfunded. It is not possible to test everything. Instead I'll focus on the 87W Apple charger. I think I've figured out what it is doing. Question is if it is compliant or breaking spec. The 61W charger doesn't behave this way, at least according to the traffic logs I have. (I'll have to test more later in January when I can borrow a 61W charger again.)
So I bought another 87W charger and tested it against a drained iPad Pro 12.9" with a freshly purchased USB-C to Lightning cable from Apple, and sadly the results are the same
I lost track of time somewhat, but it charged
0 - 42% in 67 mins
which is clearly short of the 29W charging speed of
0 - 56% in 60 mins
From my previous test.
That support document is unfortunately inaccurate, the 29W charger is still the only charger that fast charges the iPad Pro 12.9".
I lost track of time somewhat, but it charged
0 - 42% in 67 mins
which is clearly short of the 29W charging speed of
0 - 56% in 60 mins
From my previous test.
That support document is unfortunately inaccurate, the 29W charger is still the only charger that fast charges the iPad Pro 12.9".
Interesting - and disappointing. Thanks for testing. I've noticed too that the product pages for the USB-C to Lightning cables also make the claim that the 61W and 87W support fast charging. So the error is pretty widespread. I wonder if it will come in future updates.So I bought another 87W charger and tested it against a drained iPad Pro 12.9" with a freshly purchased USB-C to Lightning cable from Apple, and sadly the results are the same
I lost track of time somewhat, but it charged
0 - 42% in 67 mins
which is clearly short of the 29W charging speed of
0 - 56% in 60 mins
From my previous test.
That support document is unfortunately inaccurate, the 29W charger is still the only charger that fast charges the iPad Pro 12.9".
Nathan, thanks a bunch for your testing. I've seen your work in passing on other USB-C products and it is super helpful.
Hmmm, the 87W charger does appear to be charging faster than the normal 12W charger, though, correct? So maybe the 87W *is* fast charging -- just not as fast as the 29W charger.So I bought another 87W charger and tested it against a drained iPad Pro 12.9" with a freshly purchased USB-C to Lightning cable from Apple, and sadly the results are the same
I lost track of time somewhat, but it charged
0 - 42% in 67 mins
which is clearly short of the 29W charging speed of
0 - 56% in 60 mins
From my previous test.
That support document is unfortunately inaccurate, the 29W charger is still the only charger that fast charges the iPad Pro 12.9".
It's possible - I don't know for sure, but it's not as fast I'd like it to be. If I have the time I'll repeat the test with a 12W charger, which may give more insight.
FYI, it would be better if you measured power draw directly with a kill-a-watt as testing with battery percentages can be somewhat inaccurate ... especially if you start from zero.
I have the 87w and the 29w chargers here, plus the 12" iPad Pro - the only thing I don't have unfortunately is the official Apple Lightning to USB-C cable to test because I also have the SmartThings plugs which would give me a wattage power draw reading.
I don't really need another USB-C/Lightning cable as it's not something id really use however i'm really interested in this thread and this sort of thing so i'll pick one up to help out with testing and get some power draw results in comparison to the fake BC Master cable I get (and hope it doesn't destroy my iPad Pro in the process haha)
Just a thought but it might also be interesting to what speed both iPads charge from the MacBook Pro USB-C ports, we know they give out 15w max, will they both pull the full 15w down either the official or the fake cables? I know connecting two MacBook Pro's together with a USB-C cable has the second one pull in the full 15w charge. I really wish Apple had gone for a 50w or something here if the computer is plugged in, it'd be great to have proper PD for bus powered devices, but I get it would confuse people why they can only use them without a plug when the main computer is powered.
Sounds great! Looking forward to the results.
The USB-C ports on the 2016 MacBook Pros charge the iPad Pro no faster than modern USB-A Macs unfortunately. Well, at least according to System Information.
Code:
USB 3.0 Bus:
Host Controller Driver: AppleUSBXHCISPTLP
PCI Device ID: 0x9d2f
PCI Revision ID: 0x0021
PCI Vendor ID: 0x8086
iPad:
Product ID: 0x12ab
Vendor ID: 0x05ac (Apple Inc.)
Version: 6.07
Serial Number: [removed]
Speed: Up to 480 Mb/sec
Manufacturer: Apple Inc.
Location ID: 0x14600000 / 29
Current Available (mA): 500
Current Required (mA): 500
Extra Operating Current (mA): 1600
Sleep current (mA): 2100Apple's support articles are not perfect, and they contain mistakes, just like rest of industry. Another example concerning USB power: Apple only documents Macs providing up to 1100 mA. But as Brookzy evidenced, Macs can supply up to 2100 mA since at least 2012.
Nathan-K, how may I contact you (without creating a Goolag account)? I am not able to send you a private message on this forum.
Did anyone try a Pro-C Power Adapter, since updating to iOS 10.2.1?
Many people have wasted time, money and efforts to replicate Original Apple product functionality in vain. Even I am guilty of doing it.So I bought another 87W charger and tested it against a drained iPad Pro 12.9" with a freshly purchased USB-C to Lightning cable from Apple, and sadly the results are the same
I lost track of time somewhat, but it charged
0 - 42% in 67 mins
which is clearly short of the 29W charging speed of
0 - 56% in 60 mins
From my previous test.
That support document is unfortunately inaccurate, the 29W charger is still the only charger that fast charges the iPad Pro 12.9".
This time I straight purchased 29W iPad Pro charger from Apple store along with USB-C Lightning cable with my eyes closed and swallowed all the hurt feelings of getting robbed. I also snagged extra 2 USB-C to lightning cables from Amazon.com Prime members exclusive offer at half price.
But hey, the combo just works and I don't have to waste time doing R&D on adapters which may or may not work.
How do you know it's charging at 27W? Did you time and compare it against the official 29W charger? Are you charging from the MBP itself or the adapter used to charge the MBP?
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To clarify, everything I used is "Original Apple product".
Last night I charged up my iPad Pro using the Apple 61W USB-C power brick and an Apple USB-C to Lightning cable. It was definitely faster than a standard 12W charge. Maybe it is negotiating 27W now, as of iOS 10.2.1. Still slower than the 29W USB-C power brick, but only slightly.