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And for the record, we have Apple and Apple’s generosity to thank for upping the base spec without a price increase, not some whiny, clickbait YouTubers who don’t know how to select a non-base spec configuration and who whine and complain that Apple’s supposedly “greedy”…
Apple’s generosity, you have got to be kidding? The same company that charges an arm and a leg for SSD upgrades. And before yesterday charged 200 dollar for 8GB extra.
Apple did a wonderful job on the Mx processors and overall quality of their laptops. But then greeded out by only adding non-user upgradable 8/256 for I don’t know how long. And charged crazy amounts for upgrades. My guess is that their R&D now said that the features they are working on are going to need 16GB. Apple probably wants to avoid another iPhone 15 debacle (a recent phone not having AI features, because of lack of ram). So they opted to make it 16GB across the board. Something they should done some time ago (at the intro of the m1, or at the very least: the M2 air would have been a good point for Apple: new design and it came with a price increase).
 
Some are completely delusional and no amount of reasoning is going to get through to them. Not even pointing out that apple discontinued a SKU they introduced to the market 7 months ago.

We (consumers) finally got a base option that adequately handles more demanding tasks out of the box and that’s all that matters.

We won
 
No worries. When it's time, it's time.

I mean, my 2017 5k iMac stopped receiving software updates about 5-6 years later, and I am still keeping it because its display makes for a gorgeous YouTube viewing experience for my dad. It's not like it suddenly just stopped working overnight.
That is honestly great. But the same could be said of cheap laptops that can be made to run Linux and still be useful for many people. Love when "old" hardware gets use out of them and makes people happy. But that does not negate the fact that 8GB was due for an upgrade in a 1000 dollar laptop, already some years ago.

I had a 2011 MBP with hard dive and 4GB. Back then you could upgrade them yourself. A few years later I upgraded both the ram and the hard drive to SSD. It made all the difference in terms of performace and it saved me from purchasing another laptop. Plus, it allowed me to get a decent price on it when I sold it (and even sold the ram and hard drive for a few bucks). Good luck with selling the 8GB machines in about a year or so.
 
That is honestly great. But the same could be said of cheap laptops that can be made to run Linux and still be useful for many people. Love when "old" hardware gets use out of them and makes people happy. But that does not negate the fact that 8GB was due for an upgrade in a 1000 dollar laptop, already some years ago.

I had a 2011 MBP with hard dive and 4GB. Back then you could upgrade them yourself. A few years later I upgraded both the ram and the hard drive to SSD. It made all the difference in terms of performace and it saved me from purchasing another laptop. Plus, it allowed me to get a decent price on it when I sold it (and even sold the ram and hard drive for a few bucks). Good luck with selling the 8GB machines in about a year or so.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make exactly.

I could be mistaken, but my 2012 MBA already came with soldered ram. Apple has stopped making their devices upgradeable since a long time ago, and at least now, they have a good reason for it (Apple Silicon and the performance improvements that come with it).

Second, if I thought I needed more ram in a laptop, I would not have held on to my MBA for as long as I have. I am not in the least bit bitter about consumers getting more ram in their Macs henceforth (I think it's a good thing). I don't care about being seen as having "lost" this round of arguments. Heck, I don't even like to bargain. That's just the sort of person that I am. Product / Service X is being offered at Price Y. I am okay with the terms, I pay for it. I am not okay with the terms, I don't pay for it. It is what it is, and I don't go around banging tables and yelling that something is too expensive.

It's a package deal when you buy a Mac with Apple Silicon these days. I knew what I was getting myself into. When I purchased my M1 MBA in 2020, I was realistically expecting around 6-7 years of software updates, assuming I even held on to it for that long. And the thought of reselling it has never crossed my mind. If and when I do upgrade, I may just keep my old MBA around in a drawer as a backup, so I could just return it to Apple for recycling? :)
 
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Some are completely delusional and no amount of reasoning is going to get through to them. Not even pointing out that apple discontinued a SKU they introduced to the market 7 months ago.

We (consumers) finally got a base option that adequately handles more demanding tasks out of the box and that’s all that matters.

We won
Anyone who thinks they know better how to run Apple than Apple is delusional… You have failed to win anything, because you haven’t proven any of the claims you and your side of the debate has made. You never proved 8GB isn’t enough for anyone (the opposite has been proven repeatedly), you haven’t proven that Apple was being “greedy” by not giving away nice things for free, you haven’t proven that 8GB Macs are somehow going to lose software support within the next couple years before the rest of the lineup (I know you personally said you’re not claiming that, but your side of the debate has made such claims), you haven’t proven that 8GB Macs aren’t capable of professional work (we’ve proven the exact opposite time and again with professional use-cases like graphic design, 3D modeling/sculpting, other member’s education work, office work, etc.). You haven’t proven a thing. Apple has decided to be generous and offer nice things for free. That doesn’t mean you win a debate in any way…
 
Apple’s generosity, you have got to be kidding? The same company that charges an arm and a leg for SSD upgrades. And before yesterday charged 200 dollar for 8GB extra.
Apple did a wonderful job on the Mx processors and overall quality of their laptops. But then greeded out by only adding non-user upgradable 8/256 for I don’t know how long. And charged crazy amounts for upgrades. My guess is that their R&D now said that the features they are working on are going to need 16GB. Apple probably wants to avoid another iPhone 15 debacle (a recent phone not having AI features, because of lack of ram). So they opted to make it 16GB across the board. Something they should done some time ago (at the intro of the m1, or at the very least: the M2 air would have been a good point for Apple: new design and it came with a price increase).
Yes, Apple’s generosity. Apple is not required to give away things for free. They easily could have decided to up the price-point for their new models for upping the base-spec configuration. But they didn’t, instead, they decided to be generous and give away that upgrade for free. Apple isn’t required to give away spec upgrades for free. You’re not entitled to a 16GB spec for the same price as an 8GB spec. Nobody is. Apple dictates the price they’re willing to sell their product at. You can choose to not buy it or buy it, but Apple doesn’t really owe you anything when it comes to pricing decisions…

Apple moved over to soldered RAM in 2012, over a decade ago. If you’re not over it by now, maybe you should look at other options… 🤦🏼‍♂️. Soldered RAM has had many benefits, especially now with the Unified Memory architecture of the M-Series chips. If you’re one who was comfortable cracking open your computer and replacing RAM cards, you could see soldered RAM as a downside, but many customers don’t ever upgrade their RAM, even with computers that use RAM cards. And now, RAM cards are slower and less energy efficient than the soldered RAM that’s available. I think soldered RAM makes more sense because more people benefit from the energy efficiency and speed gains of soldered RAM than they would from using RAM cards that they’d never upgrade anyways…

We’ve already demonstrated that Apple’s upgrade pricing isn’t crazy, and is actually generally in line with the competition. Our side of this debate have shown numerous examples of other companies charging the same or more for upgrades for computers in a similar market segment. Nobody’s being held at gunpoint to buy a Mac. If you don’t like Apple’s upgrade pricing, you could always look elsewhere.

Apple knows better when they should or shouldn’t change specs than anyone in this forum. They actually have the data and means to determine these things… I think we could actually sum this up very easily: Apple knows better how to run Apple than anyone in this forum… Period.
 
Some are completely delusional and no amount of reasoning is going to get through to them. Not even pointing out that apple discontinued a SKU they introduced to the market 7 months ago.

We (consumers) finally got a base option that adequately handles more demanding tasks out of the box and that’s all that matters.

We won
I am just at lost for words here: they must have a shrine of Tim Cook or something.
I think we could actually sum this up very easily: Apple knows better how to run Apple than anyone in this forum… Period.
Overall, looking at Apple profits, yes probably. Every business decision or product they make, no: just look at Magic Mouse ( ergonomics are awful), the butterfly keyboard, the cancelled Apple Car project or the Vision Pro, which is also not picking up as much steam as anticipated. And now they “cancelled” 8GB Macs, just when AI features , known for eating into Ram like it candy, are knocking on the door: coincidence? Apple makes some great products. But you are allowed to criticize Apple and their products. No need to worship a multibillion company as if it cured cancer and brought world peace.
 
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Overall, looking at Apple profits, yes probably. Every business decision or product they make, no: just look at Magic Mouse ( ergonomics are awful),

How do you know how this affects their business?

the butterfly keyboard,

That probably did have an impact, sure.

the cancelled Apple Car project or the Vision Pro, which is also not picking up as much steam as anticipated.

We don’t know that they did intend to launch a car, nor do we know what Vision Pro figures they were hoping for, nor which ones they ended up getting.

And now they “cancelled” 8GB Macs,

No, they have all Airs a speed bump.

Apple makes some great products. But you are allowed to criticize Apple and their products. No need to worship a multibillion company as if it cured cancer and brought world peace.

That’s neither here nor there.
 
I am just at lost for words here: they must have a shrine of Tim Cook or something.

Overall, looking at Apple profits, yes probably. Every business decision or product they make, no: just look at Magic Mouse ( ergonomics are awful), the butterfly keyboard, the cancelled Apple Car project or the Vision Pro, which is also not picking up as much steam as anticipated. And now they “cancelled” 8GB Macs, just when AI features , known for eating into Ram like it candy, are knocking on the door: coincidence? Apple makes some great products. But you are allowed to criticize Apple and their products. No need to worship a multibillion company as if it cured cancer and brought world peace.
First of all, insinuating that those who disagree with you must have a shrine to Tim Cook is disrespectful, and does nothing to help your argument. You later in the same comment double down and say we “don’t need to worship Apple”. Clearly no-one here is worshipping Apple. I have yet to see a single person offering up prayers to Tim Cook… 🙄

Most of the things you claim as examples of Apple making “bad decisions” are entirely subjective. You think the ergonomics of the Magic Mouse is terrible, I like the ergonomics of the Magic Mouse. That’s a matter of personal preference, and can’t be used as objective evidence for making an objective claim… Same with the Butterfly Keyboard and the other examples you cited. While lots of people didn’t like the Butterfly Keyboard, there were also plenty of people who didn’t have an issue with it. The Vision Pro is a niche device in a niche market. It’s not meant to sell like iPhones and iPads. We know very little about the Apple Car project, we don’t know if they ever planned on shipping a car, or if they were more focused on the software aspect of things (I suspect the later). None of these things are objectively bad decisions. Subjectively they could be considered so.

Furthermore you imply that because we don’t share your particular “criticism” of Apple, claiming they’re greedy by not giving away better specs for free and other such claims, that we have no criticisms of Apple. This isn’t true. Many of us here have other criticisms and things we’d like to see Apple do differently. We just don’t try to claim them as objective facts, and aren’t vilifying the company when they don’t put all of our wishlist items into practice… Many in this debate have done exactly that, and many of the people here vilifying Apple aren’t even Apple customers by their own admission. It would be like me going to a Windows forum to complain about Surface Products when I don’t own any… That kind of “criticism” isn’t good faith criticism, it’s vilification and trolling a fan group for a product you don’t like. Note that I am not saying you are doing so, I am saying that if I were to go to a Surface forum as a non-Surface customer and diehard Apple customer to vilify Microsoft constantly, that wouldn’t be constructive…

Again, objectively, the party that has the greatest interest in running Apple well, has the most data, and the most information about how to create the best product that will appeal to the most customers is Apple, nobody in this forum… Apple knows best how to run Apple…
 
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First of all, insinuating that those who disagree with you must have a shrine to Tim Cook is disrespectful,
Disagreeing is fine and healthy. But some of you have an unhealthy obsession over defending Apple over almost everything and every decission. It becomes almost comedy, so I make a joke out of it.
We know very little about the Apple Car project, we don’t know if they ever planned on shipping a car, or if they were more focused on the software aspect of things (I suspect the later). None of these things are objectively bad decisions.
Oh come on!
https://www.motor1.com/news/710650/apple-spent-10-billion-failed-car/

Burning through at least 10 billion dollars without anything to show...Great success!
This is exactly what I mean: according to you, Apple does not make any mistakes. None! Just like religious fanatics or people that have a strong attachment to certain politicians.

A question: if Microsoft would do exactly the same (i.e. burn through 10 billion dollars on a car project). And they come up with nothing. How would you call this? Failure, right? Same with everything: what if MS or Google would employ the Butterfly keyboard. This would be called a failure, right? But somehow, with Apple, it is called failure?
 
Disagreeing is fine and healthy. But some of you have an unhealthy obsession over defending Apple over almost everything and every decission. It becomes almost comedy, so I make a joke out of it.

Oh come on!
https://www.motor1.com/news/710650/apple-spent-10-billion-failed-car/

Burning through at least 10 billion dollars without anything to show...Great success!
This is exactly what I mean: according to you, Apple does not make any mistakes. None! Just like religious fanatics or people that have a strong attachment to certain politicians.

A question: if Microsoft would do exactly the same (i.e. burn through 10 billion dollars on a car project). And they come up with nothing. How would you call this? Failure, right? Same with everything: what if MS or Google would employ the Butterfly keyboard. This would be called a failure, right? But somehow, with Apple, it is called failure?
And your words were still disrespectful and irrelevant to the topic at hand, so do nothing to help your argument. We’re defending one decision, namely the decision to offer an 8GB RAM option. That’s hardly “defending Apple over almost everything and every decision”… You’re side of the debate made wild and unsubstantiated claims like “8GB isn’t enough for anyone”, “8GB isn’t enough for pros” (insert arbitrary definition of “pro computer user”), “Apple is being greedy by not offering higher specs for free”, etc. We have disproven most of these claims, and pointed out the subjective and non-objective “truth-level” of others. That isn’t “defending Apple on every decision”, it’s defending one particular thing and debunking false claims…

How do you know whether or not they have “nothing to show for it”? I’m sure they collected quite a lot of useful R&D data they can either sell to other companies, or use in future projects or products such as Apple CarPlay. We don’t know all of what Apple has to show for the project. So I cannot objectively claim to know whether their project was a “complete failure” or not. And I would say the same of Microsoft or Google. Too little is actually known beyond rumors and conjecture to objectively claim one way or another.

Actually, as much as I dislike Microsoft and their products, I believe they know best how to run their business. Things I deem to be shortcomings of their products others consider to be strengths or advantages. No product can really appeal to everyone. This is why even customers sometimes have mixed feelings about such things…

This is extremely simple: Microsoft knows best how to run Microsoft, Google knows best how to run Google, and Apple knows best how to run Apple…. I may disagree and dislike some decisions from these companies, but I cannot say that they’re “objectively wrong” or “failing” because they don’t implement my wishlist of requests or preferences…
 
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And your words were still disrespectful and irrelevant to the topic at hand, so do nothing to help your argument. We’re defending one decision, namely the decision to offer an 8GB RAM option. That’s hardly “defending Apple over almost everything and every decision”… You’re side of the debate made wild and unsubstantiated claims like “8GB isn’t enough for anyone”, “8GB isn’t enough for pros” (insert arbitrary definition of “pro computer user”), “Apple is being greedy by not offering higher specs for free”, etc. We have disproven most of these claims, and pointed out the subjective and non-objective “truth-level” of others. That isn’t “defending Apple on every decision”, it’s defending one particular thing and debunking false claims…

How do you know whether or not they have “nothing to show for it”? I’m sure they collected quite a lot of useful R&D data they can either sell to other companies, or use in future projects or products such as Apple CarPlay. We don’t know all of what Apple has to show for the project. So I cannot objectively claim to know whether their project was a “complete failure” or not. And I would say the same of Microsoft or Google. Too little is actually known beyond rumors and conjecture to objectively claim one way or another.

Actually, as much as I dislike Microsoft and their products, I believe they know best how to run their business. Things I deem to be shortcomings of their products others consider to be strengths or advantages. No product can really appeal to everyone. This is why even customers sometimes have mixed feelings about such things…

This is extremely simple: Microsoft knows best how to run Microsoft, Google knows best how to run Google, and Apple knows best how to run Apple…. I may disagree and dislike some decisions from these companies, but I cannot say that they’re “objectively wrong” or “failing” because they don’t implement my wishlist of requests or preferences…
Everyone seems to have their own truth these days.

Apple not only flat out removing a configuration 7 months after introduction, but going back and refreshing older models to bump up the RAM is about as clear of a ‘win’ in an debate considering the history of the company. This isn’t new for Apple anyway as they’ve always played this game of limbo with their entry level models until absolutely necessary to move up. You seem to be upset over labeling the company geeedy, but I never implied that it was a negative. It just is what it is as Apple has fiduciary responsibilities to extract as much value from their products as long as possible.

So when you consider the iPhone 15 AI debacle clearly Apple took at look at some internal tests and decided it was best to ‘generously’ give users who expect to use these machines for 4-8 years a ‘free upgrade’ to avoid a repeat issue.

My hope is that the additional few dollars required for the extra RAM doesn’t sink the company.
 
Everyone seems to have their own truth these days.

Apple not only flat out removing a configuration 7 months after introduction, but going back and refreshing older models to bump up the RAM is about as clear of a ‘win’ in an debate considering the history of the company. This isn’t new for Apple anyway as they’ve always played this game of limbo with their entry level models until absolutely necessary to move up. You seem to be upset over labeling the company geeedy, but I never implied that it was a negative. It just is what it is as Apple has fiduciary responsibilities to extract as much value from their products as long as possible.

So when you consider the iPhone 15 AI debacle clearly Apple took at look at some internal tests and decided it was best to ‘generously’ give users who expect to use these machines for 4-8 years a ‘free upgrade’ to avoid a repeat issue.

My hope is that the additional few dollars required for the extra RAM doesn’t sink the company.
It’s not a win for your side of the debate, because nobody here was arguing that Apple would never move to 16GB for the base spec models. What your side of the debate repeatedly argued was that 8GB RAM wasn’t enough for anyone, that 8GB wasn’t enough for “pro computer users”, that Apple was gouging customers, that Apple is “greedy” by not offering nicer specs for free, that Apple’s RAM upgrade pricing is “outrageous”, etc. All of these claims have been proven false or shown to be completely subjective. I don’t know if you personally made all of these arguments, I know you’ve made some of them. But these are the claims that I have been opposing this entire debate. Apple deciding to generously upgrade base spec models doesn’t “prove” any of the above claims. Your side of the debate didn’t “win” anything. If the debate was about whether or not Apple would ever move to 16GB base spec models, then you would have won the debate. But that wasn’t/isn’t what’s being debated in this thread. And none of the claims from your side of the debate have been proven…

“Greedy” is typically a negative title. I have never seen “greedy” used in a positive way… Meeting fiduciary responsibilities by extracting value from products isn’t “greed”, it’s responsible business management…
 
Apple also seems to disagree with you since two days ago. Indeed, 8GB suffices for many people. But that also holds true for Macbooks from 2013 with 4GB. Eye of the beholder and all that.

1. In my opinion (and the original topic), 8GB in a Pro machine of in 2024 2000 euros is/was not ok. According to you "Pro" machine is only a marketing term. But what about the Mac Pro or iMac Pro? Just marketing, or aimed at a certain user population? Even Apple-centric reviewers agree: https://www.macworld.com/article/2191793/14-inch-macbook-pro-m3-review.html They could not even run a standard benchmark because of lack of ram.
2. Say a student saved up and wants a powerful computer, also expecting to use it in the future for his first job. Sees the 2000 euro price tag + feels the build quality. But buys the 8GB. And finds out the multitasking is limited. And his photography hobby becomes a chore because Lightroom is slow. And finds out he likes Blender...
3. Just look at this example:
"Comparing a scene in Blender:
  • 214 seconds on my personal laptop M1 7GPU 8CPU 16GB Ram.
  • over 6 minutes on a M1 8GPU 8CPU 8GB Ram"
The more powerful 8GPU 8CPU 8GB M1 vs 7GPU 8CPU M1 16GB: the 8 GB is almost twice as slow, despite having an additional GPU core. So your stories about rendering on 8GB: yes it works. But very slow.

I would argue that most people would have been better served with a refurbished 16GB MBP M1Pro or M2Pro than a 8GB M3 MBP. Now all Macs have 16GB, I suspect that Mac sales will start shooting up. Let's just say, if people would ask me about what laptop to buy, I would now happily point them to any of the Mac base models :) Depending on their storage needs obviously.
 
Apple also seems to disagree with you since two days ago. Indeed, 8GB suffices for many people. But that also holds true for Macbooks from 2013 with 4GB. Eye of the beholder and all that.

1. In my opinion (and the original topic), 8GB in a Pro machine of in 2024 2000 euros is/was not ok. According to you "Pro" machine is only a marketing term. But what about the Mac Pro or iMac Pro? Just marketing, or aimed at a certain user population? Even Apple-centric reviewers agree: https://www.macworld.com/article/2191793/14-inch-macbook-pro-m3-review.html They could not even run a standard benchmark because of lack of ram.
2. Say a student saved up and wants a powerful computer, also expecting to use it in the future for his first job. Sees the 2000 euro price tag + feels the build quality. But buys the 8GB. And finds out the multitasking is limited. And his photography hobby becomes a chore because Lightroom is slow. And finds out he likes Blender...
3. Just look at this example:
"Comparing a scene in Blender:
  • 214 seconds on my personal laptop M1 7GPU 8CPU 16GB Ram.
  • over 6 minutes on a M1 8GPU 8CPU 8GB Ram"
The more powerful 8GPU 8CPU 8GB M1 vs 7GPU 8CPU M1 16GB: the 8 GB is almost twice as slow, despite having an additional GPU core. So your stories about rendering on 8GB: yes it works. But very slow.

I would argue that most people would have been better served with a refurbished 16GB MBP M1Pro or M2Pro than a 8GB M3 MBP. Now all Macs have 16GB, I suspect that Mac sales will start shooting up. Let's just say, if people would ask me about what laptop to buy, I would now happily point them to any of the Mac base models :) Depending on their storage needs obviously.
Adding new specs isn’t a sign of “disagreement”… Apple hasn’t come out saying “8GB isn’t more than enough for many base spec customers”. So trying to say they disagree with our side of the debate makes no sense. Again, we weren’t debating whether Apple may move to 16GB in a future base model. We were debating a number of false claims being leveled by your side of the debate… Or subjective claims wrongly being represented as objective truth…

MacBooks from 2013 are suitable for some, and I applaud anyone still using them. But they don’t get software updates, and are likely on their last legs by now. My 8GB M1 Mac is still in the prime of its life, and is running everything I want smoothly.

1. I think it was/is fine. The value isn’t dictated by the RAM spec, but the other high quality components like the beautiful display, the good sound system, the unparalleled battery runtime, and the overall build quality. I think all of these things add value. There really aren’t Windows laptops competing on that same level when it comes to all of those things combined. You have Windows laptops with good displays but poor sound systems, or poor battery runtime. I’ve yet to see a single Windows laptop that can compete on all of those things combined. And that adds value. Because it is unrivaled, it’s likely going to have a higher price-tag. And most of these “Apple-centric reviewers” are clickbait shisters who create artificial scandals regarding new Mac models every year to drum up views and clicks… There are a few good reviewers out there, but if you’re referring to reviewers like MaxTech, he is completely dishonest and untrustworthy. He’s lied in his videos…

2. I’m using my 8GB M1 Mac for professional graphic design work and various other uses like video editing, 3D modeling/sculpting, emulating Windows games, etc. I think this hypothetical student should be more than fine. I don’t use Lightroom, but I use a Lightroom adjacent product, and I’ve never encountered a beach ball or it “feeling slow”. Same with Blender. But if someone plans on using Blender for really large projects, and/or animation, then they should probably definitely get a larger setup. In my experience, rendering always takes some time with every computer I’ve ever used. My 8GB M1 Mac is actually the fastest I’ve ever used. But this “shifting workflow” theory could be applied to a 16GB base spec as well. Your student buys a 16GB model, but then later decides to start up his own indie animation studio, and finds the 16GB RAM to be limiting… The problem is, you could make the exact same hypothetical with the 16GB model. In fact, for animation, I’ve seen many people recommend at least 32GB of RAM, typically a lot more…

3. Refurbished is always a good option. I’ve actually primarily bought my computers refurbished. Some don’t like to buy refurbished models. And the 8GB refurbished models are yet cheaper, making it much more accessible for people on a budget that still want the nicer hardware.

And at least you don’t seem to be anti-Mac, but many of the people I’ve been debating in this thread are admittedly anti-Mac, and haven’t even used or bought a Mac. I’ve been happily referring people to the base spec Macs for years now, and everyone I’ve referred them to have been very happy with them. I have been very happy with my 8GB M1 Mac, and I plan on using it for the next 3-4 years for my personal and professional use…
 
And at least you don’t seem to be anti-Mac, but many of the people I’ve been debating in this thread are admittedly anti-Mac, and haven’t even used or bought a Mac.
No indeed, I am certainly not anti-Mac! Just anti-8GB as you might have noticed ;) I am typing this on a refurbished (you could say new: 1 battery cycle) M1Pro (i.e. 16GB) with 1TB that costed me way less than a new M3 8GB/512GB would have costed me. The latter might not be true anymore soon, since the latter will drop in value really, really fast.
And also not anti-Apple: I also have an iPhone 13 mini. But I am critical of Apple: I truly wished it had USB-c and I am happy that any future iPhone will finally have USB-C (thanks EU!).
 
No indeed, I am certainly not anti-Mac! Just anti-8GB as you might have noticed ;) I am typing this on a refurbished (you could say new: 1 battery cycle) M1Pro (i.e. 16GB) with 1TB that costed me way less than a new M3 8GB/512GB would have costed me. The latter might not be true anymore soon, since the latter will drop in value really, really fast.
And also not anti-Apple: I also have an iPhone 13 mini. But I am critical of Apple: I truly wished it had USB-c and I am happy that any future iPhone will finally have USB-C (thanks EU!).
That’s fine, nobody’s saying you have to buy an 8GB model. Clearly you were able to get a model you think is a great value. But some of us also prefer a yet cheaper option that gives us access to the nicer hardware. The 8GB base spec has provided that option for years. That’s why I bought an 8GB M1 Mac. And I got a chance to try an 8GB M1 before I bought one, and knew it would be more than enough for my workflow, and a big upgrade over the 16GB Intel Macs I had used. And my M1 Mac is still performing beautifully for my workflow. I plan on happily using it for the next 3-4 years.
 
At last it’s settled and proof Tim Cook listens. 16Gb base.

All those who for some reason thought 8Gb was fine may well now have second thoughts as increasingly their machines will be unable to fully exploit new software.

I do hope that those in marketing at Apple have now been told to button it in future after making ridiculous claims that brought Apple into ill repute.

Have a first order in for 50 Mac minis and same iMacs with follow up after 3 months
 
I plan on continuing to happily use my 8GB M1 Mac until the end of its support life. It’s running beautifully for my workflow, and I don’t see my needs more than doubling anytime soon…
 
At last it’s settled and proof Tim Cook listens. 16Gb base.

All those who for some reason thought 8Gb was fine may well now have second thoughts as increasingly their machines will be unable to fully exploit new software.

I do hope that those in marketing at Apple have now been told to button it in future after making ridiculous claims that brought Apple into ill repute.

Have a first order in for 50 Mac minis and same iMacs with follow up after 3 months
Feels great that many won’t have to even think about the activity monitor anymore. $500 Mac Mini for college with 16GB RAM is now a great value for students.

What a great win for consumers that no price hike occurred.
 
And 8GB of RAM is a great bargain for students as well. I’m sure many will continue happily using their 8GB Macs for years to come.
 
Apple also seems to disagree with you since two days ago. Indeed, 8GB suffices for many people. But that also holds true for Macbooks from 2013 with 4GB. Eye of the beholder and all that.

1. In my opinion (and the original topic), 8GB in a Pro machine of in 2024 2000 euros is/was not ok. According to you "Pro" machine is only a marketing term. But what about the Mac Pro or iMac Pro? Just marketing, or aimed at a certain user population? Even Apple-centric reviewers agree: https://www.macworld.com/article/2191793/14-inch-macbook-pro-m3-review.html They could not even run a standard benchmark because of lack of ram.
2. Say a student saved up and wants a powerful computer, also expecting to use it in the future for his first job. Sees the 2000 euro price tag + feels the build quality. But buys the 8GB. And finds out the multitasking is limited. And his photography hobby becomes a chore because Lightroom is slow. And finds out he likes Blender...
3. Just look at this example:
"Comparing a scene in Blender:
  • 214 seconds on my personal laptop M1 7GPU 8CPU 16GB Ram.
  • over 6 minutes on a M1 8GPU 8CPU 8GB Ram"
The more powerful 8GPU 8CPU 8GB M1 vs 7GPU 8CPU M1 16GB: the 8 GB is almost twice as slow, despite having an additional GPU core. So your stories about rendering on 8GB: yes it works. But very slow.

I would argue that most people would have been better served with a refurbished 16GB MBP M1Pro or M2Pro than a 8GB M3 MBP. Now all Macs have 16GB, I suspect that Mac sales will start shooting up. Let's just say, if people would ask me about what laptop to buy, I would now happily point them to any of the Mac base models :) Depending on their storage needs obviously.
Wow I didn't see this one earlier.

That hits the point harder than even the original opening post does.
 
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Wow I didn't see this one earlier.

That hits the point harder than even the original opening post does.
A. This is not a scientific test. He doesn’t tell us what settings were enabled/disabled on the computers (things like energy saver can substantially slow down such performance). We don’t even know if the settings were all the same between the compared devices. He doesn’t even say whether or not the settings in Blender itself were the same across the devices. So this is not really evidence for anything.

B. Again, if someone is planning on using their computer for heavy 3D projects and lots of rendering, they probably shouldn’t be using a base spec configuration. Whether it’s 8GB or 16GB. They’d probably be looking at going with a 24GB or 32GB configuration at least. And he notes he is using a MacBook Air. MacBook Airs are fanless, so processes like rendering throttle more to keep the system cool. A M1 8GB Mac with a cooling fan will perform tasks like this faster than a MacBook Air. And an M3 8GB Mac with a cooling fan (the topic of this article), should perform faster… All of that said, I’m creating high poly count models and importing them into Blender with zero issues on my 8GB M1 Mac (with a fan).

C. The base spec models aren’t meant to cater to all workflows, especially very resource taxing ones. If I were a 3D animator, I would never even consider a base spec configuration. The base spec models are meant to cater to average users and medium workflows. People wouldn’t even be trying to create Blender projects on an Intel Mac with 8GB of RAM. The M-Series chips have made such a dramatic difference in performance that the 8GB base spec models can actually handle Blender quite well now for a base spec, at least for sub-animation-level workflows. We can always dig up some super resource taxing workflow to imply the base spec is “being held back”, but this is just silly. By that line of thinking, all Macs should only ship with 128GB of RAM to make sure they’re not at risk of “being held back”… Prepare to gasp when you see the new prices for the Mac lineup…

The fact of the matter is that 8GB is enough and has been enough for many many base spec customers for years. For some people it isn’t enough, and they’ve had the option to upgrade to a spec that suits them better. That’s why the upgrade options exist. Your average person isn’t rendering a bunch of 3D models on their computer. They’d probably actually be pleasantly surprised they actually can on their computer without toasting it like many budget Intel powered laptops…
 
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Overall, looking at Apple profits, yes probably. Every business decision or product they make, no: just look at Magic Mouse ( ergonomics are awful), the butterfly keyboard, the cancelled Apple Car project or the Vision Pro, which is also not picking up as much steam as anticipated. And now they “cancelled” 8GB Macs, just when AI features , known for eating into Ram like it candy, are knocking on the door: coincidence? Apple makes some great products. But you are allowed to criticize Apple and their products. No need to worship a multibillion company as if it cured cancer and brought world peace.
I feel like a lot of the criticism aimed at Apple feels like a kid who scored 98% for a test, and he is being overly criticised for that one question he didn't get right, rather than being acknowledged for the other questions that he did do well in. And even if he did score 100%, my bet is that the critics would just find something else to find fault with, such as his handwriting or even the time he took to complete the test.

That feels like the state of Apple discourse today. People clearly have no interest in analyzing Apple as a company or having an honest conversation about how Apple operates Apple or what makes it tick. A lot of what I am reading here just feels very superficial and shallow and people just seem more interested in trying to explain away Apple's success, rather than explain it.

Something like the charging port of the Magic Mouse being on the bottom is being far given more oxygen than say, a discussion of the impact of the gray market on growing the active iPhone user base (in the context of rising iPhone prices and lengthening upgrade cycles) or a new Apple Store opening in a country (which should further help to boost sales and grow the install base), even though the former is really quite inconsequential and has practically zero impact on Apple's success as a company.

To put things another way, the signal-to-noise ratio here is pretty bad. A lot of noise, not much of a signal. All these nitty gritty little things like the power button at the bottom of the new Mac Mini? They just don't matter in the greater scheme of things, yet they are what account for the majority of comments (and most of it pretty superficial to boot as well).

The simple truth of the matter is - you don't run a successful business by giving users everything they want (not least because users almost always want more specs at a cheaper price, but will struggle to accurately describe what the next big thing will be). Rather, you should seek to emulate what Apple has done - create a unique user experience that people are willing to pay a premium for. Rather than sell a commoditised product that ends up in a race to the bottom in terms of pricing (like what we are seeing with android handsets and the PC market).

Apple is not perfect, but in all honesty, what company is, and I challenge anyone here to name me any other company who has been executing flawlessly all this time. The competition clearly has its fair share of issues, some appear flat out rudderless, yet only Apple seems to be subject to this ridiculous double standard where people here expect the sun and the moon, yet don't want to pay anything beyond cost price for them.

This is why I believe Apple will go on to proper in spite of all the criticism being levelled at it. For all their hiccups and missteps and tales of doom and woe (eg: DMA, lawsuits, patent issues), I continue to believe that Apple is headed in the right direction, generally speaking. They are not going to forget how to make great products overnight, yet this forum loves to position Apple as some special snowflake which is perennially one flop away from irrelevancy.

Why this narrative persists, I still cannot wrap my head around. I have thought about this for well over a decade, and the only logical conclusion is that people, for some reason, still want to explain Apple's success away rather than try to explain it. Perhaps it's all a mirror of today's 24-hour news cycle that's increasingly focused on keeping viewers engaged via rage-bait and manufactured outrage. Sure, it keeps Apple in the news, and it also gets frustrating when you realise that a lot of the news have very little traction, tend to lose steam within a week or two, and frankly, just don't really matter in the long term.

I go back to my guiding principle - Apple does a lot of things differently, and if all you are doing is simply comparing Apple to everyone else and then go “Hey, Apple isn’t following what everyone else is doing, so I don’t think whatever Apple is doing is going to work”, I think they go down the wrong path. The best way of covering Apple is to begin with Apple. You have to focus with Apple, and then you move outwards. You start with Apple, and then you analyse the industry that Apple operates in. Only then can we begin to actually have a productive and meaningful conversation regarding Apple. :)
 
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