Exactly, very well put! I personally think more than anything, much of this is a result of the 24-hour news cycle and platforms rage-baiting viewers. Many of the Apple review YouTubers are putting out absolute trash that’s designed for clickbait. Much of it is some YouTuber who would never buy a base-spec to begin with complaining about one thing or another about the base-spec model of some Apple product…. I think the power button on the bottom of the new Mac Mini actually makes a lot of sense. There’s less room on the back now, so prioritizing that space for ports (something most users use on a regular basis) over a power button on the back (something I suspect most users use very infrequently by comparison) makes sense. The charging port on the bottom of the Magic Mouse is clearly a design aesthetic choice, and I prefer it. You wouldn’t have such a nice slope to it if they had to add a port on the front. What many forget is that Apple values aesthetic design as well. It’s like they view their computers as a piece of art. I think that’s part of why Apple jives so well with us creatives. They don’t want to just make a functional computer that looks like crap (looking at you Windows PCs), they want to make a computer that functions well and looks elegant. And they continually achieve that goal. Like the iPad Pro with it’s cantilevered Magic Keyboard Case. Not only does it address a practical function (adding a keyboard that’s light but still achieving good balance with the cantilevered design), but it also looks very elegant and unique due to it’s cantilevered design. Apple gets the aesthetic quality of their products. While other companies are wrapping their computers in ugly, gaudy plastic, Apple is making pieces of art.I feel like a lot of the criticism aimed at Apple feels like a kid who scored 98% for a test, and he is being overly criticised for that one question he didn't get right, rather than being acknowledged for the other questions that he did do well in. And even if he did score 100%, my bet is that the critics would just find something else to find fault with, such as his handwriting or even the time he took to complete the test.
That feels like the state of Apple discourse today. People clearly have no interest in analyzing Apple as a company or having an honest conversation about how Apple operates Apple or what makes it tick. A lot of what I am reading here just feels very superficial and shallow and people just seem more interested in trying to explain away Apple's success, rather than explain it.
Something like the charging port of the Magic Mouse being on the bottom is being far given more oxygen than say, a discussion of the impact of the gray market on growing the active iPhone user base (in the context of rising iPhone prices and lengthening upgrade cycles) or a new Apple Store opening in a country (which should further help to boost sales and grow the install base), even though the former is really quite inconsequential and has practically zero impact on Apple's success as a company.
To put things another way, the signal-to-noise ratio here is pretty bad. A lot of noise, not much of a signal. All these nitty gritty little things like the power button at the bottom of the new Mac Mini? They just don't matter in the greater scheme of things, yet they are what account for the majority of comments (and most of it pretty superficial to boot as well).
The simple truth of the matter is - you don't run a successful business by giving users everything they want (not least because users almost always want more specs at a cheaper price, but will struggle to accurately describe what the next big thing will be). Rather, you should seek to emulate what Apple has done - create a unique user experience that people are willing to pay a premium for. Rather than sell a commoditised product that ends up in a race to the bottom in terms of pricing (like what we are seeing with android handsets and the PC market).
Apple is not perfect, but in all honesty, what company is, and I challenge anyone here to name me any other company who has been executing flawlessly all this time. The competition clearly has its fair share of issues, some appear flat out rudderless, yet only Apple seems to be subject to this ridiculous double standard where people here expect the sun and the moon, yet don't want to pay anything beyond cost price for them.
This is why I believe Apple will go on to proper in spite of all the criticism being levelled at it. For all their hiccups and missteps and tales of doom and woe (eg: DMA, lawsuits, patent issues), I continue to believe that Apple is headed in the right direction, generally speaking. They are not going to forget how to make great products overnight, yet this forum loves to position Apple as some special snowflake which is perennially one flop away from irrelevancy.
Why this narrative persists, I still cannot wrap my head around. I have thought about this for well over a decade, and the only logical conclusion is that people, for some reason, still want to explain Apple's success away rather than try to explain it. Perhaps it's all a mirror of today's 24-hour news cycle that's increasingly focused on keeping viewers engaged via rage-bait and manufactured outrage. Sure, it keeps Apple in the news, and it also gets frustrating when you realise that a lot of the news have very little traction, tend to lose steam within a week or two, and frankly, just don't really matter in the long term.
I go back to my guiding principle - Apple does a lot of things differently, and if all you are doing is simply comparing Apple to everyone else and then go “Hey, Apple isn’t following what everyone else is doing, so I don’t think whatever Apple is doing is going to work”, I think they go down the wrong path. The best way of covering Apple is to begin with Apple. You have to focus with Apple, and then you move outwards. You start with Apple, and then you analyse the industry that Apple operates in. Only then can we begin to actually have a productive and meaningful conversation regarding Apple.
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8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests
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A bit of a problem to compare budget intel powered laptops with laptops that start at ~$1,000, often 3-4x the price of those cheap models Dell/HP try to offload.
Anyway this isn't about trying to score reactions on a forum, but rather accurately criticizing Apple for selling $1,500+ laptops equipped with 8GB RAM. To their credit they corrected it in a big way to end the discussion once and for all across their entire product stack. Consumers and business purchases like @Motorola68000 not only save a bit of money, but even more importantly no longer have to worry about taking a huge performance hit with future macOS/AI updates.
A HUGE win for consumers!
I don't believe you'll get much better value with an 8Gb. machine when the Mac mini base configuration has 16Gb and is so cheap.
But onwards and upwards.
Best regards
I’ll continue to recommend the 8GB models to people on a budget, because they can be bought refurbished at a nice discount. And they’re more than enough for many base-spec customers, even those with professional workflows. 🙂
Best regards to you as well. 👍🏻
Not all of these Intel base-spec Windows laptops are all that cheap. Many low-end laptops cost $600-$700 or more now. Below that price point, you’re likely looking at something that’s reusing a bunch of old hardware or is refurbished/used. That’s at least what I’ve seen. Computers in general have gotten more expensive with market inflation. So These Macs are not 3-4x more expensive, at most they’re twice. But that’s perfectly reasonable when you compare the hardware. None of those budget $600-$700 Windows laptops have the same quality of display, sound system, battery runtime, build quality, etc. If RAM is the most important metric (it isn’t for many customers), then by all means buy the cheaper Windows craptops that are a far inferior experience. But many people value other specs of a computer more than the RAM, because they’re not running an indy 3D animation studio…
And customers with very demanding workflows shouldn’t buy base-spec models. Base-spec models are not geared towards highly demanding use-cases. They’re designed for medium workflows. The things that most people will use them for. Not highly resource taxing things like 3D animation and 8K video editing. This is why upgrade options exist…
In addition they are not built with durability in mind. Most will break or fail within a year or two
I’m not sure I would go so far as to say they’ll break in a year or two. Many have used base-spec models to the end of their support lifecycle which is typically around 6-8 years. I’ve never had a problem with any of my base-spec Apple products failing that quickly. 👍🏻
I just had to respond to this, one of the funniest and most out of touch narratives I've seen in tech spaces hahaI feel like a lot of the criticism aimed at Apple feels like a kid who scored 98% for a test, and he is being overly criticised for that one question he didn't get right, rather than being acknowledged for the other questions that he did do well in. And even if he did score 100%, my bet is that the critics would just find something else to find fault with, such as his handwriting or even the time he took to complete the test.
That feels like the state of Apple discourse today. People clearly have no interest in analyzing Apple as a company or having an honest conversation about how Apple operates Apple or what makes it tick. A lot of what I am reading here just feels very superficial and shallow and people just seem more interested in trying to explain away Apple's success, rather than explain it.
Something like the charging port of the Magic Mouse being on the bottom is being far given more oxygen than say, a discussion of the impact of the gray market on growing the active iPhone user base (in the context of rising iPhone prices and lengthening upgrade cycles) or a new Apple Store opening in a country (which should further help to boost sales and grow the install base), even though the former is really quite inconsequential and has practically zero impact on Apple's success as a company.
To put things another way, the signal-to-noise ratio here is pretty bad. A lot of noise, not much of a signal. All these nitty gritty little things like the power button at the bottom of the new Mac Mini? They just don't matter in the greater scheme of things, yet they are what account for the majority of comments (and most of it pretty superficial to boot as well).
The simple truth of the matter is - you don't run a successful business by giving users everything they want (not least because users almost always want more specs at a cheaper price, but will struggle to accurately describe what the next big thing will be). Rather, you should seek to emulate what Apple has done - create a unique user experience that people are willing to pay a premium for. Rather than sell a commoditised product that ends up in a race to the bottom in terms of pricing (like what we are seeing with android handsets and the PC market).
Apple is not perfect, but in all honesty, what company is, and I challenge anyone here to name me any other company who has been executing flawlessly all this time. The competition clearly has its fair share of issues, some appear flat out rudderless, yet only Apple seems to be subject to this ridiculous double standard where people here expect the sun and the moon, yet don't want to pay anything beyond cost price for them.
This is why I believe Apple will go on to proper in spite of all the criticism being levelled at it. For all their hiccups and missteps and tales of doom and woe (eg: DMA, lawsuits, patent issues), I continue to believe that Apple is headed in the right direction, generally speaking. They are not going to forget how to make great products overnight, yet this forum loves to position Apple as some special snowflake which is perennially one flop away from irrelevancy.
Why this narrative persists, I still cannot wrap my head around. I have thought about this for well over a decade, and the only logical conclusion is that people, for some reason, still want to explain Apple's success away rather than try to explain it. Perhaps it's all a mirror of today's 24-hour news cycle that's increasingly focused on keeping viewers engaged via rage-bait and manufactured outrage. Sure, it keeps Apple in the news, and it also gets frustrating when you realise that a lot of the news have very little traction, tend to lose steam within a week or two, and frankly, just don't really matter in the long term.
I go back to my guiding principle - Apple does a lot of things differently, and if all you are doing is simply comparing Apple to everyone else and then go “Hey, Apple isn’t following what everyone else is doing, so I don’t think whatever Apple is doing is going to work”, I think they go down the wrong path. The best way of covering Apple is to begin with Apple. You have to focus with Apple, and then you move outwards. You start with Apple, and then you analyse the industry that Apple operates in. Only then can we begin to actually have a productive and meaningful conversation regarding Apple.
You see, people nowadays, especially gen Z, aren't really in love with corporations besides maybe some young men. And you're coming with a early 2010's mindset, back when everyone and their mother were talking about the newest smartphone.
There's a reason people do not discuss the gray market or "apple stores" - by your logic I could ask "why isn't the media publishing news about AliExpress and the increase of Chinese smartphone market share"?
You bring up "user experience that people would pay a premium for" but this is assuming said experience is superior than a cheapo/mid-range Android phone, which only holds if you know for sure what everyone wants. All I've seen so far supporting this theory is corporate garbage and dodgy studies.
And your "commoditized product in a race to the bottom" thing is a wild claim if you go outside your bubble. Because guess what, your phone is an appliance just like your fridge and your washing machine. People all over the world still use mid-range phones from 2019 because they care about other stuff in their life, not the latest iphone or the difference between bard and openAI.
Given all of this I need to come back to your "gray market" point of view - so you're basically admitting people are willing to pay less money for the latest iphone, and then claim the others are "in a race to the bottom"? These two claims are fundamentally exclusive - it proves people want good products for a cheap price.
Apple is still part of the industry no matter how much they're trying to pretend they're special and apple shareholders gobble it up.
Seeing as you’re not an Apple customer, and seem to just be here in an Apple fan forum to try to cause trouble, nobody should care about your opinion of Apple’s products… It seems that you only care about RAM spec, and all of the other specs like display quality, build quality, battery runtime, sound quality, etc. are unimportant to you. But polling shows many of those things are some of the key things people look at when deciding to buy a computer. Apparently (judging by your arguments that display quality and battery runtime don’t matter) all you look at is the RAM spec, it could have a CRT display and require plugging into the wall and you wouldn’t care…. Heck, you even argued “there’s power outlets everywhere, so battery runtime doesn’t matter”… 🤦🏼♂️😂. But many customers actually care about battery runtime and display quality…
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Sure it is. I've already made my arguments and most in this thread agree that brand new 8GB Macs shouldn't have been a thing in 2023, let alone 2024.
The facts: Apple discontinued an offering they introduced months ago, decided to make a major move to include 16GB on even their most budget friendly options and even went as far back as updating the lineup of Macs they originally introduced almost 3 years ago. Take a look at the MKBHD video review of the M4 Mac Mini even he was surprised to say at just how insane a value it is with 16GB RAM.
What's more interesting to me is how they handle the upcoming iPhone SE refresh. Surely they are likely going to want to make it Apple Intelligence ready. What does it do with the remaining iPhone 15 and 14 stock? How can a budget device which I'm assuming will cost less than those have a feature that more expensive models don't? Is it possible that we see ANOTHER win for consumers? The only time I ever recall apple updating or refreshing an iPhone was eliminating the original 4GB model for the 8GB and 16GB variants.
You and your side never proved your arguments that Apple’s “greedy”, “anti-consumer”, that 8GB models are supposedly “useless”, that they’re supposedly “useless for pros”, that you “can only run two or three apps at once”, that Apple’s RAM upgrade pricing is supposedly “unreasonable”, and many other such wild claims that we’ve disproven and debunked… According to your side of the argument, the new Mac Mini is just the “bare minimum” they should be offering, and isn’t a great bargain or value. My side of the argument actually appreciates the value of these spec upgrades, because we don’t expect nice specs to be handed to us for free constantly… Note that I’m saying your side of the argument, not you as an individual, because I don’t know if you’ve made all of these arguments or not. But those are the arguments I’ve been debating and debunking this entire debate…
Like I said, it's responses like this which demonstrate my point perfect about how people are all too eager to explain away Apple's success when really, we should be better trying to explain it.
First, context is everything. Yes, the media could run articles bout cheap Chinese phones boosting android market share, and to what end again? What exactly does it mean for them and for the end user?
With Apple, I believe I have categorically stated my points crystal clear. Even though iPhones sales seem to have plateaued, the active iPhone user base continues to grow, thanks in part to the 2nd hand market. Some of you will be quick to argue that phones which change hands this way don't earn Apple any money. Well, yes and no, considering that Apple is also a part of this grey market. And because they have the spare parts, it's not too difficult for Apple to refurbish used iPhones (of which they get many via the upgrade programme) and resell them for a decent price still.
Second, this growth in install base means more iPhone users that Apple can sell accessories, additional hardware and services to. Heck, just them using Apple Pay earns Apple a cut. This is something that android OEMs don't benefit from, because they don't have an ecosystem that they can continue to leverage after the sale of the initial device. It just stops there, the phone effectively becomes a liability once it leaves their warehouse, and that's why these handsets tend to not be supported for very long, if at all. And this also goes back to why Apple is willing to support their phones with updates for a minimum of 5 years. Because there's still money to be made from iPhone users, even if they never spent a cent acquiring said iPhone.
The problem isn't Apple. The problem is when people like yourself choose to interpret what Apple does in a very superficial manner. Your worldview is essentially "lower prices means more sales = good for everybody", not realising that this is the exact mentality that has led to the current state of affairs where android handset makers are barely breaking even while Apple continues to rake in the lion's share of profits in the market. And still people want to insist that Apple is some special snowflake who has forgotten how to make great products and is perennially one flop away from irrelevancy.
I have never denied that Apple is not a part of whatever market they choose to operate in. However, Apple does a lot of things differently, and I go back to my original point that if all you are doing is simply comparing Apple to everyone else and then go “Hey, Apple isn’t following what everyone else is doing, so I don’t think whatever Apple is doing is going to work”, I think they go down the wrong path.
And I guess if that's what you are here to do - make statements that are rooted in ideology rather than make statements that are correct (in the greater scheme of things), then go ahead, and we will just continue this merry go round for the near foreseeable future. It won't change a thing with regards to how Apple operates, how their user base chooses to interact with Apple devices, or how Apple continues to be successful for a good long time to come.
And for the record, @Abazigal is far more in touch than you are. Seeing as you aren’t even an Apple customer, and seem to be up for any junk display and battery combo so long as it has this magical RAM spec…
Exactly! Apple isn’t producing cheap junk to try to compete for the bottom portion of the market. They don’t just slap together cheap display panels, old and underpowered Intel CPUs, crappy trackpads, all in a cheap, lousy plastic shell. That’s what the other companies do. What Apple does is make beautiful computers that are like a piece of art. Beautifully designed, with beautiful performance and display and sound hardware. Apple doesn’t just sell a cheap bundle of cheap plastic and circuitry, Apple sells an experience. And many Apple customers place a high value on that experience. The software is specifically designed for the hardware, and they both work seamlessly and efficiently together, unlike Windows. Also, unlike Windows, macOS provides more unified standards for software development, making software perform much better and more efficiently on Apple’s hardware than on Windows. Apple is selling a premium product, not a bargain bin special. As I said before, Apple even pays close attention to the aesthetic of their products because they treat their computer design as an art-form. I think this is part of why Apple appeals to creatives.Like I said, it's responses like this which demonstrate my point perfect about how people are all too eager to explain away Apple's success when really, we should be better trying to explain it.
First, context is everything. Yes, the media could run articles bout cheap Chinese phones boosting android market share, and to what end again? What exactly does it mean for them and for the end user?
With Apple, I believe I have categorically stated my points crystal clear. Even though iPhones sales seem to have plateaued, the active iPhone user base continues to grow, thanks in part to the 2nd hand market. Some of you will be quick to argue that phones which change hands this way don't earn Apple any money. Well, yes and no, considering that Apple is also a part of this grey market. And because they have the spare parts, it's not too difficult for Apple to refurbish used iPhones (of which they get many via the upgrade programme) and resell them for a decent price still.
Second, this growth in install base means more iPhone users that Apple can sell accessories, additional hardware and services to. Heck, just them using Apple Pay earns Apple a cut. This is something that android OEMs don't benefit from, because they don't have an ecosystem that they can continue to leverage after the sale of the initial device. It just stops there, the phone effectively becomes a liability once it leaves their warehouse, and that's why these handsets tend to not be supported for very long, if at all. And this also goes back to why Apple is willing to support their phones with updates for a minimum of 5 years. Because there's still money to be made from iPhone users, even if they never spent a cent acquiring said iPhone.
The problem isn't Apple. The problem is when people like yourself choose to interpret what Apple does in a very superficial manner. Your worldview is essentially "lower prices means more sales = good for everybody", not realising that this is the exact mentality that has led to the current state of affairs where android handset makers are barely breaking even while Apple continues to rake in the lion's share of profits in the market. And still people want to insist that Apple is some special snowflake who has forgotten how to make great products and is perennially one flop away from irrelevancy.
I have never denied that Apple is not a part of whatever market they choose to operate in. However, Apple does a lot of things differently, and I go back to my original point that if all you are doing is simply comparing Apple to everyone else and then go “Hey, Apple isn’t following what everyone else is doing, so I don’t think whatever Apple is doing is going to work”, I think they go down the wrong path.
And I guess if that's what you are here to do - make statements that are rooted in ideology rather than make statements that are correct (in the greater scheme of things), then go ahead, and we will just continue this merry go round for the near foreseeable future. It won't change a thing with regards to how Apple operates, how their user base chooses to interact with Apple devices, or how Apple continues to be successful for a good long time to come.
In short, it would be like trying to compare a fine restaurant to McDonalds. They just aren’t really even close. Yes, they loosely operate in the “same market” but they don’t tend to attract the same clientele for the same reasons. Apple is more like a fine restaurant. Sure, Jeb’s Barbecue down the road may sell a steak for a bit less, but you don’t get the same overall experience at Jeb’s Barbecue as you do at the fine restaurant… And the steaks at Jeb’s Barbecue aren’t cooked the same, and don’t taste as good…
Weird to still get notifications on a topic that has been decisively settled.
The M4 Mac mini is going for $499 with the coupon on Amazon, but estimated shipping time is now 1-2 months out.
Those things must be FLYING as consumers are racing to finally leave the 8GB RAM macs behind.
What a great win for customers.
The M4 Mac mini is going for $499 with the coupon on Amazon, but estimated shipping time is now 1-2 months out.
Those things must be FLYING as consumers are racing to finally leave the 8GB RAM macs behind.
What a great win for customers.
Indeed almost literally what I said some time ago: if Apple is willing to put 16GB in, their computers will sell like hotcakes. Watch the quarterly results on Mac in 3 months. Same for the M4 MBP. The M3 MBP was poor value because of the 8Gb. Now the M4 MBP must be selling like crazy. But the 8GB defense squad will argue it has to do with the M4 or upgrade time for previous m1 or M2 buyers. I just give up arguing.
But just imagine Apple would have put 8Gb in the base m4 mini: would it get these raving reviews and sell like hotcakes cakes. I think not….
But you have absolutely NO idea how many M4 mini's were allocated and shipped to Apple. Also any new product release is going to have an initial surge in sales.
None of your side’s claims were proven… Nothing was “decisively settled”… 😂🤣
I will continue to use and enjoy my 8GB M1 Mac for many more years to come.
As to the “what a great win for customers” comment, all of Apple’s product releases have been great wins for customers for probably at least the last decade…
That last one is a pretty hot take that only a complete Apple devotee can utter: butterfly keyboard? Vision Pro? Magic Mouse? Apple Arcade? 8GB M3 MBPs at 2000 euros?
Surprise, surprise, this forum is for “Apple devotees”… I highly doubt most average Mac users are hanging out in forums like this. Second of all, there were plenty of people who were fine with the butterfly keyboard. How is the Vision Pro not a win for customers? A new product with new functionality is clearly a win, even if it’s not a product designed for all customers…. The Magic Mouse is great, and has been great since day one. The ergonomics and aesthetic are unrivaled in my opinion. Apple Arcade is a nice gaming service, however does the existence of a gaming service harm customers again or not serve as a “win”? The 8GB M3 MBP was and is a great option for those who don’t need excessive amounts of RAM and want to save some money. And it should be noted that every example you cited here is obviously subjective. Some people liked the butterfly keyboard, and most were probably somewhat indifferent. Claiming the Vision Pro is somehow bad for customers is nonsensical. The only controversy over the Magic Mouse is the charging port placement, and most of the people I see making that into a “big deal” are not even Apple Customers and are just trying to find something to complain about. It needs charged so infrequently, it’s not that big of a deal to just charge it when it’s not in use… These are all subjective opinions.
Apple is a very successful company, you don’t get to be that successful by constantly releasing products that don’t appeal to your customers. You release winning products every year that appeal to your customer base. And that’s what Apple has consistently done, despite the complaints from some.
Not likely. In fact we would likely be in yet another thread similar to this one in where people are uploading benchmarks showing how the lack of RAM is impacting performance. This should be celebrated by all instead of some defending Apple for their decision to stick with RAM amount that was found in the most budget of laptops since 2022.
Some just don't like to see customers win for some odd reason. I had Safari with a few tabs open and decided I wanted to see what my RAM utilization was and it was sitting at 9GB! I did have a YouTube video playing, but outside of that no other tasks open. Unbelievable.
The hard shipment numbers don't matter. What matters is that the demand is much higher than they anticipated unless there is evidence that Apple had some supply chain issues that are causing the delay. I am assuming this is a combination of the tech nerds such as ourselves recognizing how good of a deal it is now along with the glowing reviews people had made on the base model.
A HUGE WIN for all.