8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests

[ric22]

Well, they also invest a lot of money into improving their CPU designs, and I think the key motivator was the Cook edict of owning or controlling all key technologies, and only secondarily to also rake in more margin.

Hmm, I'd say the financial side is more important than the control. But Intel were proving disappointing. And yes, a lot of money is thrown into CPU development, but the majority of that would be spent anyway creating the A series chips. The M series are a branch off that

 

[Kal Madda]

Hmm, I'd say the financial side is more important than the control. But Intel were proving disappointing. And yes, a lot of money is thrown into CPU development, but the majority of that would be spent anyway creating the A series chips. The M series are a branch off that

While it’s true that the A series chips and M series chips are related, they are definitely not the same, and have enough differences that they require different development and production processes. And Apple is reported to have spent over 1 billion dollars on M3 tape outs alone, that doesn’t even include R&D costs or the rest of the production costs.

Also, the control aspect is definitely important, because it now allows Apple to integrate their chips better with hardware and software features they want to deliver, rather than trying to tack those onto someone else’s system. And this results in much better value for customers than what they were getting with Intel Macs. Whether Apple spends more or less on M-Series Macs or not (we don’t know, because we lack hard data on the costs of producing the M-Series chips except for the report that Apple spent over 1 billion on tape outs alone for the M3), The M-Series Macs definitely provide better value for customers.

 

[Kal Madda]

An Intel-based $1,099 13-inch current-gen MacBook Air would likely have the 134U and 164U options, for $332 and $448.

An Intel-based $1,599 14-inch current-gen low-end Pro would likely have the 115U through 165U options, for between $363 and $490.

Finally, the higher-end 14-inch and 16-inch models would likely go all the way to the 155H and 185H, for $503 and $640.

Now, Apple will likely get better volume discounts, sure. But I find it hard to believe they spend $332, let alone $490 on the M3.

So I looked up these chips and it says “recommended customer price” for those on Intel’s website. But I wonder if companies ordering these in bulk spend anywhere close to that, or if that’s just the markup for ordering one for your custom PC rig. I know you could get replacement motherboards for Intel MacBooks for not much more than some of those cited CPU costs, so I would think they’d be getting them discounted below what the listed recommended customer price is. Even if they didn’t, and that’s what Intel CPUs cost, I don’t see any hard data on the manufacturing costs of the M3 chips minus the report that they spent over 1 billion dollars on tape outs alone.

 

[Heat_Fan89]

And there are softwares that add patches for running newer versions of macOS on unsupported Macs. But your average person isn’t going to do registry edits or the patcher softwares. What I’m talking about is official support, and 5-6 year old computers were dropped with official support with Windows 11. 👍🏻

I get what you are saying but that was a TPM requirement. We don't know and there have been NO indications that Microsoft will require a newer version of TPM to run Windows 12. If TPM 2.0 were not required thos 5-6 year old PC's would be able to run Windows 11. That seems to be an anomaly rather than the norm.

If you can run a laptop or desktop in Windows 10 you get all of the official security updates until Microsoft no longer supports the OS, which Windows 10 is still being supported. So the example of using the 2006 ThinkPad running Windows 10, it would still be current today so currently that's close to 18 years of official support.

Windows 10 really has a much higher user base vs Windows 11. So the group that would want to extend the life of their laptop or desktop that is officially unsupported by Microsoft would be small. But even so if you can install Windows 11 on an 18 year old laptop, you would get official OS and security support from Microsoft.

Windows 11 keeps adding users, but Windows 10 is still king

According to the latest Statcounter figures, Windows 11 reached its largest-ever global market share in January, hitting 18.1%. Windows 10, in contrast, has seen its share fall...

www.techspot.com

 

[chucker23n1]

While it’s true that the A series chips and M series chips are related, they are definitely not the same,

They have the exact same cores.

So I looked up these chips and it says “recommended customer price” for those on Intel’s website. But I wonder if companies ordering these in bulk spend anywhere close to that, or if that’s just the markup for ordering one for your custom PC rig. I know you could get replacement motherboards for Intel MacBooks for not much more than some of those cited CPU costs, so I would think they’d be getting them discounted below what the listed recommended customer price is. Even if they didn’t, and that’s what Intel CPUs cost, I don’t see any hard data on the manufacturing costs of the M3 chips minus the report that they spent over 1 billion dollars on tape outs alone.

Let me fix that reply of yours:

"When I said 'I have never seen an Intel chip that costs that much.', that was a woefully uninformed thing to say."

 

[Kal Madda]

I get what you are saying but that was a TPM requirement. We don't know and there have been NO indications that Microsoft will require a newer version of TPM to run Windows 12. If TPM 2.0 were not required thos 5-6 year old PC's would be able to run Windows 11. That seems to be an anomaly rather than the norm.

If you can run a laptop or desktop in Windows 10 you get all of the official security updates until Microsoft no longer supports the OS, which Windows 10 is still being supported. So the example of using the 2006 ThinkPad running Windows 10, it would still be current today so currently that's close to 18 years of official support.

Windows 10 really has a much higher user base vs Windows 11. So the group that would want to extend the life of their laptop or desktop that is officially unsupported by Microsoft would be small. But even so if you can install Windows 11 on an 18 year old laptop, you would get official OS and security support from Microsoft.

Windows 11 keeps adding users, but Windows 10 is still king

According to the latest Statcounter figures, Windows 11 reached its largest-ever global market share in January, hitting 18.1%. Windows 10, in contrast, has seen its share fall...

www.techspot.com

And my old Mid 2012 MacBook Pro still get security updates even though it isn’t running the latest version of macOS, so that’s quite a lot of support too. But security updates aren’t the same as feature updates. Besides, most people update their computer about every 5 years, most don’t even use computers for the approximate 8 years of feature updates that Apple supports their Macs for. That’s why I don’t think it’s a big deal really that Windows 11 dropped support for 5 year old computers, because that’s about when most people usually upgrade anyways.

 

[enb141]

If you’re a Windows fan, and don’t like Macs, then why hang out in a Mac fan forum? Many Windows computers aren’t officially supported by Windows 11, and a bunch of janky modifications have to be made with things like registry edits in order to get them to install Windows 11. And Windows 10 will be dropped in 2025, that’s only 1 year from now since we’re in 2024. And many computers that don’t officially support Windows 11 are A lot less than 8 years old. One of my family members had a Windows computer that was 5 years old when Windows 11 was announced, but didn’t get Windows 11 due to Windows 11’s overly strict hardware requirements. And lots of heavier apps require newer versions of Windows as well. I can still install plenty of basic softwares on my old unsupported Intel Mac, but just not heavier apps that have higher requirements. And the same is generally true of Windows.

I don't like apple pricing, that's it.

Just because he was pissed with his "new computer" doesn't means was Microsoft's fault.

The same happens with macs, if you got for example an intel mac pro last year days before the announcement of the mac pro apple silicon, then that computer will not get updates in a few years from now, so if you get a new computer make sure is a new technology (M3 for Macs, 14 Gen Intel for PC (or it's AMD equivalent)).

 

[Kal Madda]

They have the exact same cores.

Let me fix that reply of yours:

"When I said 'I have never seen an Intel chip that costs that much.', that was a woefully uninformed thing to say."

But they’re not the exact same chips, and have different designs.

And how is me saying that I’ve never seen x thing priced at x an “uninformed thing to say”? I hadn’t. I’m talking about my experience. And I even said that that could be the price… But I definitely doubt that the “recommended customer price” for selling 1,000 chips is the same as what a company pays for each when they order thousands on the scale Apple did. I would expect they’d get a discount. And even if they didn’t, and we assume that that’s exactly what it costed Apple, we have no hard numbers on how much it costs Apple to produce the M3 chips. The only number we have to go on with the M3 chips is that they reportedly spent over 1 billion on just the tape outs.

PS edited with info provided by @webkit in his response.

PS second edit: to put into context how much Apple spent just on tape outs alone for the M3, 1 billion could have bought them 3,012,048 Intel 134U processors (assuming the “recommended customer price”)…

 

[Heat_Fan89]

And my old Mid 2012 MacBook Pro still get security updates even though it isn’t running the latest version of macOS, so that’s quite a lot of support too. But security updates aren’t the same as feature updates. Besides, most people update their computer about every 5 years, most don’t even use computers for the approximate 8 years of feature updates that Apple supports their Macs for. That’s why I don’t think it’s a big deal really that Windows 11 dropped support for 5 year old computers, because that’s about when most people usually upgrade anyways.

It is, but what i'm saying is that those 5-6 year Windows PC's unfortunately got caught in the crosshairs of a TPM requirement. If it happens again with Windows 12 requiring computers to have newer requirements from the previous 6 years then that could be the trend going forward but as of yet there have been no indications of that happening. Dell and the other PC mfg's are still offering PC's with TPM 2.0, so we will have to wait and see what Windows 12 requires.

 

[webkit]

So I looked up these chips and it says “recommended customer price” for those on Intel’s website. But I wonder if companies ordering these in bulk spend anywhere close to that, or if that’s just the markup for ordering one for your custom PC rig.

On the Intel website:

Recommended Customer Price (RCP) is pricing guidance only for Intel products. Prices are for direct Intel customers, usually represent 1,000-unit purchase quantities, and are subject to change without notice. Prices may vary for other package types and shipment quantities. In bulk, price represents individual unit. Listing of RCP does not constitute a formal pricing offer from Intel.

 

[Kal Madda]

I don't like apple pricing, that's it.

Just because he was pissed with his "new computer" doesn't means was Microsoft's fault.

The same happens with macs, if you got for example an intel mac pro last year days before the announcement of the mac pro apple silicon, then that computer will not get updates in a few years from now, so if you get a new computer make sure is a new technology (M3 for Macs, 14 Gen Intel for PC (or it's AMD equivalent)).

A. The family member in question wasn’t upset with Microsoft, and neither was I. I think you misinterpreted that.

B. Most people aren’t buying Macs that old expecting lots of support. But most Macs get about 8 years of OS support life. And in the case of some Windows PCs with Windows 11, they got about 5 (at least with the new and latest features).

C. I agree you should buy new/newish technology. And most people do so about every 5 years.

 

[Kal Madda]

It is, but what i'm saying is that those 5-6 year Windows PC's unfortunately got caught in the crosshairs of a TPM requirement. If it happens again with Windows 12 requiring computers to have newer requirements from the previous 6 years then that could be the trend going forward but as of yet there have been no indications of that happening. Dell and the other PC mfg's are still offering PC's with TPM 2.0, so we will have to wait and see what Windows 12 requires.

That could be, or that could not be. Like you said, we’ll see. But in either case, most people only use their computers for around 5 years before they upgrade. Both provide enough support generally for this upgrade cycle. So I don’t see that as a major selling point. Also, I know this is biased, but as a non-Windows fan, I would rather not live through 10 years of torment with a Windows system, lol! 😂👍🏻. MacOS is sooo much better, and even using an unsupported Mac is better than a Windows PC in my opinion. 👍🏻

 

[Kal Madda]

On the Intel website:

Recommended Customer Price (RCP) is pricing guidance only for Intel products. Prices are for direct Intel customers, usually represent 1,000-unit purchase quantities, and are subject to change without notice. Prices may vary for other package types and shipment quantities. In bulk, price represents individual unit. Listing of RCP does not constitute a formal pricing offer from Intel.

Thank you for that info. 👍🏻 It seems reasonable to me that Apple likely didn’t pay quite that price tag since it talks about pricing varying depending on shipment quantities. Apple was a very large customer for Intel, so I’m sure they would have given them a discount. And even if they didn’t, we don’t know how much Apple may be saving or not by going to M-Series chips. They could be saving a lot, or they could be spending around the same, we don’t know. 👍🏻

 

[Heat_Fan89]

That could be, or that could not be. Like you said, we’ll see. But in either case, most people only use their computers for around 5 years before they upgrade. Both provide enough support generally for this upgrade cycle. So I don’t see that as a major selling point. Also, I know this is biased, but as a non-Windows fan, I would rather not live through 10 years of torment with a Windows system, lol! 😂👍🏻. MacOS is sooo much better, and even using an unsupported Mac is better than a Windows PC in my opinion. 👍🏻

Trust me when I say, I hate Windows 11 with a passion. Not because of the UI/UX changes but because it has become an advertising vehicle for Microsoft. Imagine trying to get work done in Microsoft Edge and the upper right corner delivers a popup about a new feature, suggestion or tip. So I have to stop what i'm doing and get rid of the prompt. There is only one laptop in my home that has Windows 11 and only because it supports a 2009 business program that has close to 20 years of data. Every other Windows laptop and desktop with the exception of my two gaming rigs and both of those are running Windows 10 have been switched over to Linux Ubuntu, Linux Manjaro and Linux Mint.

 

[Kal Madda]

Trust me when I say, I hate Windows 11 with a passion. Not because of the UI/UX changes but because it has become an advertising vehicle for Microsoft. Imagine trying to get work done in Microsoft Edge and the upper right corner delivers a popup about a new feature, suggestion or tip. So I have to stop what i'm doing and get rid of the prompt. There is only one laptop in my home that has Windows 11 and only because it supports a 2009 business program that has close to 20 years of data. Every other Windows laptop and desktop with the exception of my two gaming rigs and both of those are running Windows 10 have been switched over to Linux Ubuntu, Linux Manjaro and Linux Mint.

Same here. The biggest frustration that caused me to switch over to macOS from Windows originally was the automatic updates I couldn’t opt out of. A. Originally they would just install in the middle of me working on a project. B. They’d introduce several bugs that I couldn’t avoid by holding off an updating, or fix by reverting to a previous update, because it would just install the new update all over again. And after using macOS, I realized that I really liked the way it works, the simplicity, and the aesthetic. I’ve found macOS to be a much better fit for me. 👍🏻

 

[Chuckeee]

And yes, a lot of money is thrown into CPU development, but the majority of that would be spent anyway creating the A series chips. The M series are a branch off that

That is a fair statement and I agree. Apple’s silicon development is strongly driven by iPhone and refinement & enhancement of the A level chips. The M series are primarily scaled up versions of some previously developed A chip. The way things are going, for many casual users a current generation smartphone has all the computational power they will ever need, a dedicated keyboard and bigger display just makes human interface easier.

 

[enb141]

A. The family member in question wasn’t upset with Microsoft, and neither was I. I think you misinterpreted that.

B. Most people aren’t buying Macs that old expecting lots of support. But most Macs get about 8 years of OS support life. And in the case of some Windows PCs with Windows 11, they got about 5 (at least with the new and latest features).

C. I agree you should buy new/newish technology. And most people do so about every 5 years.

You are talking about most macs vs some PCs.

Most windows PCs will get at least 10 years of OS Support.

 

[Kal Madda]

You are talking about most macs vs some PCs.

Most windows PCs will get at least 10 years of OS Support.

And very few use their computers that long without upgrading to something newer. And this may trigger Windows fans, but why would I want to live through 10 years of torture in purgatory with Windows vs 7-8 years of a smooth and wonderful experience on macOS? 😂

 

[chucker23n1]

The M series are primarily scaled up versions of some previously developed A chip.

This. That might change in a future generation, but so far it hasn't. Apple develops p-cores and e-cores for the iPhone, later on uses the same e-cores in the Watch, and the p-cores and e-cores in Macs (and the iPad and Vision platforms), just more of them and/or at a higher clock. They may add some auxiliary capabilities like a media encoder, or Thunderbolt support, or a newer LPDDR version, but even then, that eventually tends to trickle down. Few of the M-series features were developed only for the M-series. (I don't know if Thunderbolt will ever come to the iPhone, but not so much because the Mac is special but because there isn't much point to it on an iPhone.)

All of this is a tradeoff. It allows Apple to have competitive performance per watt across the line, it allows them to keep the release schedules in sync, it allows them to be in control of their own destiny. One example where the approach is less than ideal is the Mac Pro, which, if money were no object, would probably get a different design.

 

[enb141]

And very few use their computers that long without upgrading to something newer. And this may trigger Windows fans, but why would I want to live through 10 years of torture in purgatory with Windows vs 7-8 years of a smooth and wonderful experience on macOS? 😂

Yeah, what a heaven, no internal SSD upgrades, no RAM upgrades, almost 0 gaming, most apps are not available for mac.

What a heaven

 

[Kal Madda]

Yeah, what a heaven, no internal SSD upgrades, no RAM upgrades, almost 0 gaming, most apps are not available for mac.

What a heaven

And why would I want to have to crack open my computer and swap out fragile parts? I tried that, it wasn’t all it’s cracked up to be… And I’m not really a heavy gamer, but there are plenty of games on the Mac. And it depends on what you consider “most apps”. Most popular apps are on both. There are very few that aren’t. And if I want to use Windows software, I can use Parallels Desktop to run Windows apps like native apps on the Mac. And there’s nothing on Windows that I really want to run, so I don’t even bother with that.

And it absolutely is wonderful having the choice to opt out of software updates on my device, not get constantly heckled to use Edge, not get all of those annoying popups and bloatware that slow my system down. I have a smooth OS that runs my apps efficiently, with no loud fans whirring, seamless integration with my iPad and iPhone, and a UI that is much more intuitive and useful, at least to me.

I’d trade swapping out RAM and/or internal SSDs (something I’m not really interested in doing) with the ability to opt out of software updates. That’s a feature I enjoy even on my iPhone, that Windows just doesn’t offer… Probably requires too much horsepower…

 

[enb141]

And why would I want to have to crack open my computer and swap out fragile parts? I tried that, it wasn’t all it’s cracked up to be… And I’m not really a heavy gamer, but there are plenty of games on the Mac. And it depends on what you consider “most apps”. Most popular apps are on both. There are very few that aren’t. And if I want to use Windows software, I can use Parallels Desktop to run Windows apps like native apps on the Mac. And there’s nothing on Windows that I really want to run, so I don’t even bother with that.

And it absolutely is wonderful having the choice to opt out of software updates on my device, not get constantly heckled to use Edge, not get all of those annoying popups and bloatware that slow my system down. I have a smooth OS that runs my apps efficiently, with no loud fans whirring, seamless integration with my iPad and iPhone, and a UI that is much more intuitive and useful, at least to me.

I’d trade swapping out RAM and/or internal SSDs (something I’m not really interested in doing) with the ability to opt out of software updates. That’s a feature I enjoy even on my iPhone, that Windows just doesn’t offer… Probably requires too much horsepower…

Open a computer, specially desktops is something that any teenager could do.

Most apps that I use are not available for mac.

 

[Kal Madda]

Open a computer, specially desktops is something that any teenager could do.

Most apps that I use are not available for mac.

Most people aren’t interested in opening their computers to swap components. Very few people actually do that.

And many apps that I use aren’t on Windows…

Also, if you aren’t a Mac user, and aren’t a Mac fan, then why are you hanging out in a Mac fan forum? It seems kind of odd…

 

[enb141]

Most people aren’t interested in opening their computers to swap components. Very few people actually do that.

And many apps that I use aren’t on Windows…

Also, if you aren’t a Mac user, and aren’t a Mac fan, then why are you hanging out in a Mac fan forum? It seems kind of odd…

I explained to you a few posts ago, I love computers and I love gadgets but I don't like Apple pricing.

 

[Kal Madda]

I explained to you a few posts ago, I love computers and I love gadgets but I don't like Apple pricing.

But do you like Macs? Everything you’ve said so far implies to me that you vehemently dislike them…

It’s okay if you don’t like them btw, nobody’s saying you don’t have the right to speak your mind, I’m just genuinely curious about if you’ve ever used a Mac, and if you like Macs, or are a Windows fan.