More assumptions without evidence. And Apple has actually supplied a whole system for self-repair for their computers, even their iPhones.
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8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests
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It isn’t gouging. It’s perfectly fine upgrade pricing. Just because you don’t like it and don’t want to pay it doesn’t mean it’s gouging…
A-Tech 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200 MHz SODIMM PC4-25600 (PC4-3200AA) CL22 Non-ECC Laptop RAM Memory Modules
A-Tech 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200 MHz SODIMM PC4-25600 (PC4-3200AA) CL22 Non-ECC Laptop RAM Memory Modules
www.amazon.com
Here's a random deal on Amazon for 32 GB RAM for laptops. A pair costs ~$90 therefore 16 GB would cost only $45 USD. This comes out to about $3 per GB whereas Apple's 8 GB upgrade comes out to $25 USD per GB.
If someone wants to think that's perfectly fine, I've got an ounce of gold that I'll price at $16k USD. Note that the present price of gold is $2050 an ounce. Compare these figures and that goes to show how extreme their price gouging is.
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It’s also not the same thing. Those are ancient RAM cards which don’t perform anywhere near the same as the more energy efficient and higher speed RAM used in the M-Series Macs. Plenty of other competitors are charging near the same, the same, or more for similar upgrades.A-Tech 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200 MHz SODIMM PC4-25600 (PC4-3200AA) CL22 Non-ECC Laptop RAM Memory Modules
A-Tech 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200 MHz SODIMM PC4-25600 (PC4-3200AA) CL22 Non-ECC Laptop RAM Memory Moduleswww.amazon.com
Here's a random deal on Amazon for 32 GB RAM for laptops. A pair costs ~$90 therefore 16 GB would cost only $45 USD. This comes out to about $3 per GB whereas Apple's 8 GB upgrade comes out to $25 USD per GB.
If someone wants to think that's perfectly fine, I've got an ounce of gold that I'll price at $16k USD. Note that the present price of gold is $2050 an ounce. Compare these figures and that goes to show how extreme their price gouging is.
(Also should be noted that A-Tech is a cheap brand that I would never trust in any of my computers).
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Incorrect and incorrect again.
www.theverge.com
When Apple allegedly endorsed right to repair they bypassed this by sabotaging anyone's attempt to replace components not bought through Apple. You can buy two iPhones (you bought them and own them) take them apart and swap logic boards... the hardware will reject the components based on their serial numbers. This in effect makes it impossible to repair your own property unless you send it back to Apple, and paying their outrageous rates.
A fact has been presented and now you must reform your argument to conform to this new reality.
The right-to-repair movement is just getting started
Apple’s stunning support for right-to-repair isn’t the whole story.
www.theverge.com
When Apple allegedly endorsed right to repair they bypassed this by sabotaging anyone's attempt to replace components not bought through Apple. You can buy two iPhones (you bought them and own them) take them apart and swap logic boards... the hardware will reject the components based on their serial numbers. This in effect makes it impossible to repair your own property unless you send it back to Apple, and paying their outrageous rates.
A fact has been presented and now you must reform your argument to conform to this new reality.
Forget the logic board, it is the same for the small lid position sensor on MacBooks. This is a small low cost part, there is no black market for MacBook lid position sensor but it is still serialized and requires Apple repair.Incorrect and incorrect again.
The right-to-repair movement is just getting started
Apple’s stunning support for right-to-repair isn’t the whole story.
When Apple allegedly endorsed right to repair they bypassed this by sabotaging anyone's attempt to replace components not bought through Apple. You can buy two iPhones (you bought them and own them) take them apart and swap logic boards... the hardware will reject the components based on their serial numbers. This in effect makes it impossible to repair your own property unless you send it back to Apple, and paying their outrageous rates.
A fact has been presented and now you must reform your argument to conform to this new reality.
It's December 2024, and the McDonalds fanboys are heading for an after work burger:
Person A: "Wow, McDonalds now charge $100 for a burger!? And $40 for a ketchup sachet?!? And they seal the burger in such a way that you can't add your own ketchup? That's crazy expensive! I haven't even had a pay rise this year!"
Person B: "How ridiculous to complain! Burger King charge the same for a burger and $45 for a ketchup sachet, ergo making McDonalds' pricing CHEAP. Don't you understand how these things work? If you don't want ketchup, don't pay the extra for it. The overwhelming majority of people are happy without ketchup and happy to pay these prices."
Person A: "Ah, indeed, how silly of me not to understand immediately. In fact, I think we should spend the next few months posting many hundreds or thousands of times on online forums to defend McDonalds from naysayers that dare defame our favourite corporation. 😍"
Person A: "Wow, McDonalds now charge $100 for a burger!? And $40 for a ketchup sachet?!? And they seal the burger in such a way that you can't add your own ketchup? That's crazy expensive! I haven't even had a pay rise this year!"
Person B: "How ridiculous to complain! Burger King charge the same for a burger and $45 for a ketchup sachet, ergo making McDonalds' pricing CHEAP. Don't you understand how these things work? If you don't want ketchup, don't pay the extra for it. The overwhelming majority of people are happy without ketchup and happy to pay these prices."
Person A: "Ah, indeed, how silly of me not to understand immediately. In fact, I think we should spend the next few months posting many hundreds or thousands of times on online forums to defend McDonalds from naysayers that dare defame our favourite corporation. 😍"
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Don’t forget “one serving of ketchup sells well and is more than enough for the vast majority” 👍
McDonald’s to cut prices on some items
With McDonald’s now reporting weaker than expected sales at its U.S. stores, executives are finally acknowledging customers need a break.
Here's further proof that refusing to buy overpriced products can compel a corporate juggernaut to cut prices. Imagine if every Mc customer were all in favor about defending the prices and making the exact same arguments. It's all about price gouging and blaming it on inflation, or justifying the added expense on some fictional gimmick. In the case of Apple they're asserting that 1 GB of their RAM equals 2 GB of their competitors when real world tests show that's not the case.
You can get the parts and tools from Apple to make your own repairs. Only some parts like the Secure Enclave and FaceID aren’t just “swap-in” components for obvious security reasons. Batteries can be replaced pretty easily, I’ve replaced the battery myself. There is a tool that I believe you can rent from Apple that will allow you to authenticate and replace a FaceID sensor and whatnot. And I’ve replaced batteries with third-party batteries and never had an issue. No sabotaging involved… It’s painfully obvious why you wouldn’t want to source replacement FaceID sensors or a replacement Secure Enclave from third-parties…Incorrect and incorrect again.
The right-to-repair movement is just getting started
Apple’s stunning support for right-to-repair isn’t the whole story.
When Apple allegedly endorsed right to repair they bypassed this by sabotaging anyone's attempt to replace components not bought through Apple. You can buy two iPhones (you bought them and own them) take them apart and swap logic boards... the hardware will reject the components based on their serial numbers. This in effect makes it impossible to repair your own property unless you send it back to Apple, and paying their outrageous rates.
A fact has been presented and now you must reform your argument to conform to this new reality.
PS, opinions aren’t facts, they’re just opinions… I don’t have to “reform” anything to match with your opinion of reality…
And just because one or more companies traditionally charge higher than average prices doesn't automatically make it price gouging either. Is Rolls-Royce price gouging by charging around four times more for its Cullinan SUV than Cadillac charges for its similarly sized Escalade SUV or Lincoln charges for its similarly sized Navigator SUV?
About the only times price gauging may become "legal" issues is when there is a sudden, urgent need for a particular product (typically due to a natural disaster, epidemic/pandemic, etc.) and companies greatly increases their usual prices in response, or if a company is able to take advantage of little competition (e.g., monopoly or duopoly) in a market. Neither of these apply to Apple in the laptop/computer world.
Perhaps not but my response was to a specific comment that, "It's 2024 and Apple still sells laptops with only 8 GB RAM." As I noted, there are several companies selling laptops in 2024 with even less RAM than Apple and therefore I don't think it's unreasonable for Apple to still sell laptops with 8GB RAM.
Whether or not the total price of a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro is worth the money versus "comparable" competitor machines is up to buyers to decide. I've put comparable in quotes because people are going to have different wants/needs and views as to what machines are comparable as far as quality, hardware and software (including OS) features, etc.
If I recall BMW installed seat heaters in their vehicles but charge a monthly fee in order to use them. In this case they deliberately installed the heaters into all of the cars because creating a 'normal' seat in addition to the heated ones would add more overhead, thus all cars have this feature. When you purchase the car it's officially yours and yet BMW installed software in order to render the heater useless without BMW's extortion fee. Sure enough this stirred a lot of controversy and BMW dropped the subscription altogether.
BMW drops plan to charge a monthly fee for heated seatsThe Vergehttps://www.theverge.com › bmw-cancel-heated-seat-s...
Customer complaints do have an impact.
BMW drops plan to charge a monthly fee for heated seatsThe Vergehttps://www.theverge.com › bmw-cancel-heated-seat-s...
Customer complaints do have an impact.
Yeah cheap laptops, which Apple doesn't make. It's like questioning how Ferrari can build a car which can't exceed 160 km per hour... 100 MPH to my American counterparts. Then when you present that there are many 'budget' cars that can't reach this, you can understand the absurdity of such a comparison? Or that the $250k USD vehicle has poor air conditioning, lack of MP3 interface with the sound system, seat heaters, ext. And yet there are many less expensive vehicles with all or better features.
Meanwhile Ferrari does notice these shortcomings and allows you to upgrade for absurdly high costs, sometimes the upgrades of these basic features cost more than some budget cars! Seriously the cost to upgrade the RAM from 8 to 16 GB and the storage from 256 to 512 GB is $400 USD... more than enough to buy a Chrome Book.
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That was horrible PR from BMW. Plus it likely wouldn't have taken long for someone to work out how to override that bullsh*t and activate such features without paying a subscription.
Yes, but there's a difference between "Apple sells a $599 laptop and it has 8 GiB RAM" and "Apple sells a $1,599 laptop with 'Pro' in its name and it has 8 GiB RAM". One is entry-level/budget, which Apple doesn't make in the Mac line. The other is not.
You know, we're on page 82 of this thread and there's still "it's up to the buyer" arguments being made. Like, if you're that laissez-faire-libertarian about it, why even participate in a discussion about cost/benefit at all? It's a moot point to make. Nobody is claiming Apple is forcing them at gunpoint to buy a Mac.
No but Apple absolutely has removed upgradability from their entire computer line and have cornered the market on a particular demographic. The question for them to decide is how much they can overcharge before Apple users decide to abandon the brand. I am such an example who'd be willing to buy a new computer even though I don't exactly need it, but their extremely low specs and sky high upgrade costs are exactly what I don't want. If this is to be the new norm for Apple, I should transition over to Windows and learn to be comfortable with that.
Buying a new Apple now will just lead to the exact same deadlock five years down the road. By then it will be Apple having finally settled on 16 GB RAM only for the new norm to be 32.
Buying a new Apple now will just lead to the exact same deadlock five years down the road. By then it will be Apple having finally settled on 16 GB RAM only for the new norm to be 32.
Again, the particular post I responded to had an issue with Apple still selling laptops in 2024 with 8GB RAM. Period. I disagree and feel that it's perfectly reasonable for Apple to still be selling laptops with 8GB in 2024 given that there are still several companies selling laptops with even LESS than 8GB RAM.
People choose computers for all sorts of reasons and customers still find, even with more premium machines, 8GB sufficient, and therefore I think it's perfectly reasonable for Apple to still be offering 8GB RAM machines for those customers. Apple is a more premium brand and therefore doesn’t offer 4GB or less machines but 8GB I think is still fine today.
What makes one computer "better" and possibly worth a higher price than another is subjective and can go beyond just RAM. Therefore, I think it’s fine that Apple sells laptops with 8GB RAM at the price points they do. Not everyone may agree, hence my comment that it's up to buyers to decide. This is not about being forced to buy a Mac or another model, it’s about there being many factors that can go into a computer purchase. Buyers decide which things are most important to them and if the TOTAL PACKAGE is worth the money versus the competition.
Okay then please show us how we may buy these MacBook pros with 16GB RAM for $1624 from the Apple Store. I would like very much to upgrade the RAM for the cost of the RAM and not the $175 Apple tacks onto it. Although some may deny reality the cost of a 16 GB RAM module comes to about $3 per GB and not $25 per GB as we get through Apple. Go ahead and inform us how we may upgrade the computer to our hearts' desire without being extorted by Apple's outrageous upgrade costs.
EDIT: I have a question to my opponents as to what constitutes price gouging in your opinion. At what point would you concede that price gouging is happening? This is opinion and thus I need to know at what point would you draw the line. Please provide examples of products where you'd pay 8x the market value and not feel extorted.
Our side has provided two indisputable facts that have since been ignored and never contested. One: Apple used to have upgradable RAM and Storage devices which have since been replaced with non-upgradable hardware that can only be bought through them. Two: Apple is charging multiple times the market value on said upgrades. And while other computer companies may be charging just as much for likewise non upgradable components they likewise are price gouging.
These are facts. They are supported by evidence. In order to discount this you must prove these untrue, otherwise these neuter all counter arguments. We don't live in a world where money is infinite or doesn't affect spending habits.
EDIT: I have a question to my opponents as to what constitutes price gouging in your opinion. At what point would you concede that price gouging is happening? This is opinion and thus I need to know at what point would you draw the line. Please provide examples of products where you'd pay 8x the market value and not feel extorted.
Our side has provided two indisputable facts that have since been ignored and never contested. One: Apple used to have upgradable RAM and Storage devices which have since been replaced with non-upgradable hardware that can only be bought through them. Two: Apple is charging multiple times the market value on said upgrades. And while other computer companies may be charging just as much for likewise non upgradable components they likewise are price gouging.
These are facts. They are supported by evidence. In order to discount this you must prove these untrue, otherwise these neuter all counter arguments. We don't live in a world where money is infinite or doesn't affect spending habits.
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Again, how "reasonable" that is depends entirely on the price point.
The point is that RAM is the most likely bottleneck on such a Mac. Storage (SSD) could be as well, but you can always expand that externally, and/or shift some of your stuff elsewhere (cloud, NAS, USB stick, whatever). With RAM, you cannot. And the M3 is unlikely to be much of a bottleneck.
How do you expect Apple to stay in business without marking up RAM by 8x?
/s
😂
The "Apple gouge factor" is simply out of control
Perhaps $1,624 is possible at one of the many Apple authorized resellers that discount MacBooks but I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Apple prices are low or the lowest in the market. Apple is a premium brand and to maintain that premium reputation can have overhead costs beyond what lesser brands may have and this therefore can lead them to charge a higher markup on things.
It's really not that unusual for premium or upscale brands or businesses to charge more for largely identical things. Andy's Hot Dog Cart may charge $1.29 for a 12 ounce Coke while down the street Chez Andre's Fine French Cuisine may charge $6.99 for the same 12 ounce Coke. It happens but doesn't necessarily make it price gouging.
I addressed price gouging in one of my other posts in this thread earlier today:
About the only times price gauging may become "legal" issues is when there is a sudden, urgent need for a particular product (typically due to a natural disaster, epidemic/pandemic, etc.) and companies greatly increase their usual prices in response, or if a company is able to take advantage of little competition (e.g., monopoly or duopoly) in a market. Neither of these apply to Apple in the laptop/computer world.
And how reasonable the price point is can depend on the person buying, why they are buying, what they value, their budget, attachment to the brand, etc. etc. etc.
