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MacModMachine

macrumors 68020
Apr 3, 2009
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Do you mean their SSD's are as fast as RAM? I doubt that. Actually in my MBP 2019 SSD is not very fast compared to cheap NMVe drives sold separately, so unless M1 comes with something totally different I don't think it is possible.
it doesent have to be as fast as ram, were taking a difference of a fraction of a second. the ssd is 3300mbps , the ram is probably upwards of 15000-20000...who knows without benchmarks. you can move 3gb file in a second. on top of that ARM executes against a 4 stage pipeline, its faster at executing and moving memory with efficiency than x86. ARM code may be bigger, but its significantly more efficient.

you can fill the ram in a few seconds. or operate right off the ssd with very little difference.

not a big deal imho.
 
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bry223

macrumors regular
Mar 1, 2004
186
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8GB is not enough even for moderate work tasks. If you plan on checking your email, watching YouTube videos then go for it, that pool is meant for you.

I had a MacBook Air w/ 8GB of RAM. My workflow typically consists of:

2 Browsers w/ multiple tabs (I need to use Firefox to access Hyperion through Oracle)
2-3 Heavy Excel Documents
1 Power Point
1 Word Document

With just this, I am ALWAYS swapping to the SSD because I’ve maxed out my memory. To me this isn’t even heavy.

Some will say “Well the iPad can use limited memory fine” that’s because 1). The iPad suspends processes in the background when ever you switch to a new app 2). What penetration of users are actually using their IPads for heavy workflows? 99% of the people who buy iPads are buying it for basic functions

Without a doubt 8GB is fine for the college student who has a limited workflow, or Mom who just wants to shop on Etsy. But if you are doing anything moderate, you need to step it up.
 

MacModMachine

macrumors 68020
Apr 3, 2009
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Some will say “Well the iPad can use limited memory fine” that’s because 1). The iPad suspends processes in the background when ever you switch to a new app 2). What penetration of users are actually using their IPads for heavy workflows? 99% of the people who buy iPads are buying it for basic functions
how do you know the m1 does not employ the same design ?
 

richpjr

macrumors 68040
May 9, 2006
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As always, people have different needs in their systems for their workflow. It's wonderful that some people can get by with 8 GB, for a lot of other people, it's not nearly enough. I'm disappointed 16 is the most you can get - I have 32 GB in my 16" MBP and 64 GB in my Windows 10 PC.
 

psingh01

macrumors 68000
Apr 19, 2004
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... or Apple is matching the base configs they had on the Intel Air and two-port MBPs...

The 8GB base hasn't changed for those models. For a lot of folks it's going to be sufficient. Those who need more can upgrade to 16. Those who need even more would choose a four port model, just as before. Only difference is those haven't yet shifted to ARM.

My opinion wasn’t limited to arm macs. It is valid for the Intel macs as well. There are certain components that they hold on to for many years without reducing the price or increasing the specs even though the cost to them goes down over time. These are great for their margins. If they can squeeze out more profit by selling 8gb ram in 2020 they will do it.
 

jambon

macrumors regular
Jul 15, 2010
191
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London
I think you have two types of people, those who NEVER close an app, and never close a tab (these most likely have their entire desktop covered in links to apps and never take time to organize) - and those who keep a cleaner desktop, and close apps when they are done with them. But again, our faster SSDs are making page files good enough to overcome RAM limits.
And 4000 unread emails
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
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US
As always, people have different needs in their systems for their workflow. It's wonderful that some people can get by with 8 GB, for a lot of other people, it's not nearly enough. I'm disappointed 16 is the most you can get - I have 32 GB in my 16" MBP and 64 GB in my Windows 10 PC.
Let's remember that the two-port Intel MBP13 also was limited to 16GB. So this isn't really a "new" thing.

I anticipate when the four-port MBP13 transitions you'll have higher RAM configurations available, just as you presently do on the four-port Intel MBP13s.

My opinion wasn’t limited to arm macs. It is valid for the Intel macs as well. There are certain components that they hold on to for many years without reducing the price or increasing the specs even though the cost to them goes down over time. These are great for their margins. If they can squeeze out more profit by selling 8gb ram in 2020 they will do it.
From a purely business standpoint, better to set the baseline to what a substantial number of buyers can get by with and provide a paid upgrade path for those who know they need more. Otherwise the business is missing out on potential revenue, both by the (admittedly likely small) addition cost in systems for users not needing the higher spec and by not gaining the upgrade revenue from those who do.
 
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seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
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Because the line between the two is becoming ever increasingly more blurry. Fact remains, 8gb is perfect for the Air. Even Apple tells people that. And they're telling you with the removal of the fan that you shouldn't be doing anything that taxes it very hard, because the performance is going to dip without a fan to cool it. If you think the software you're going to run requires 16gb, the Air is NOT for you.

First of all, requiring lots of memory and requiring lots of performance are not always the same thing, for casual users a pile of browser tabs and a couple large office documents is enough to eat a significant portion of 8GB just by themselves.

Second of all, talking personally where I have heavier requirements than the typical casual user, I have a 2020 Air with 16GB of RAM, why isn't it for me? I wanted a machine that can do light dev work for personal projects (I have a beefier and soon to be upgraded machine through work, plus I can offload truly intensive stuff to the cloud, even for personal projects) but can handle loading up a few VMs, a pile of docker containers, a lot of browser tabs, or all three. I also didn't want the touchbar. The air works great for my needs, it wouldnt work as great with 8GB of RAM

Third of all, despite the two becoming closer in some ways including silicon and some application frameworks now, the use cases are not the same. The big difference being people expect to be able to multitask and have things just work in the background way more on a laptop than on an iPad - that requires more RAM

tl;dr you have no idea what you're talking about.
 

MacModMachine

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Apr 3, 2009
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Suspending background applications is an OS feature, not a chip feature, and I can't think of anyone who would want that on MacOS
i never said it was a chip feature , i was referring to the new mba/mbp.

its simple , it can work that way and be efficient.

its a matter of arm's arch. short execution pipeline , ability to move data in half the time x86 can. the biggest problem is folks on these forums have zero ARM arch. experience and assume its the same as an intel chip....smh....
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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Try running a couple VMs, or a local k8s cluster with an application stack for dev work, or just a ton of browser tabs. I regularly hit 8GB of browser RAM usage on my work laptop between chrome and firefox, and I have to carefuly manage VM RAM usage right now, which is why my next work machine will have 32GB of RAM and my next personal laptop certainly isnt going below the 16GB in my 2020 MBA
Then clearly these ENTRY LEVEL SYSTEMS are not for you perhaps? This is seriously similar to complaining about a $200 Dell Desktop because it doesn't have a GTX 3080 in it for you to play 4K games. These M1 systems are ENTRY LEVEL. Obviously people running statistical analysis, 16K footage, dozens of virtual machines, 500+ browser tabs will need more powerful computers. Which will happen next year or 2022. This is going to be a 2 year transition.
 

russell_314

macrumors 604
Feb 10, 2019
6,677
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USA
No one here has used the new Macs with the M1 chip and unified memory. No one here is on the development team for new Macs. Everyone here seems to know how much RAM is required to make them work correctly...
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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No one here has used the new Macs with the M1 chip and unified memory. No one here is on the development team for new Macs. Everyone here seems to know how much RAM is required to make them work correctly...
Yes agreed. I tested Affinity Photo on my iPad Pro pretty hard, and it is surprising how much it can handle when the iPad Pro I tested it with only had 4GB of RAM. Affinity Photo on my iMac took up WAY more RAM. The fact that these new macs can run iPad and iPhone apps natively means we might see more of these benefits on the desktop/laptop.
 
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russell_314

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Yes agreed. I tested Affinity Photo on my iPad Pro pretty hard, and it is surprising how much it can handle when the iPad Pro I tested it with only had 4GB of RAM. Affinity Photo on my iMac took up WAY more RAM. The fact that these new macs can run iPad and iPhone apps natively means we might see more of these benefits on the desktop/laptop.
I suspect the unified memory will be more efficient but who knows. This is why we wait for people to post YouTube videos on how they perform with specific applications. I would bet my salary that MKBHD has been testing one for at least a week by now. I can't wait for the review!
 

seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
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Then clearly these ENTRY LEVEL SYSTEMS are not for you perhaps? This is seriously similar to complaining about a $200 Dell Desktop because it doesn't have a GTX 3080 in it for you to play 4K games. These M1 systems are ENTRY LEVEL. Obviously people running statistical analysis, 16K footage, dozens of virtual machines, 500+ browser tabs will need more powerful computers. Which will happen next year or 2022. This is going to be a 2 year transition.

Or.... they are, and the MBA with 16GB works just fine for me for personal use? 16GB of RAM isn't a huge amount of RAM these days, I don't really get you folks who seem to think that it's gobs and gobs of memory.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,142
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8GB is not enough even for moderate work tasks. If you plan on checking your email, watching YouTube videos then go for it, that pool is meant for you.

I had a MacBook Air w/ 8GB of RAM. My workflow typically consists of:

2 Browsers w/ multiple tabs (I need to use Firefox to access Hyperion through Oracle)
2-3 Heavy Excel Documents
1 Power Point
1 Word Document

With just this, I am ALWAYS swapping to the SSD because I’ve maxed out my memory. To me this isn’t even heavy.

Some will say “Well the iPad can use limited memory fine” that’s because 1). The iPad suspends processes in the background when ever you switch to a new app 2). What penetration of users are actually using their IPads for heavy workflows? 99% of the people who buy iPads are buying it for basic functions

Without a doubt 8GB is fine for the college student who has a limited workflow, or Mom who just wants to shop on Etsy. But if you are doing anything moderate, you need to step it up.
Completely false. Video professionals and educators state even 8GB of RAM is fine for 1080p video production. While 4K does benefit from having more RAM, it doesn't mean it is required in any way. If you are fine with having a video project take twice as long, then 8 GB of RAM is fine. When people state 8GB of RAM is not enough, or 16GB of RAM is minimum required these days, I am waiting for proof that you will receive constant "Out of Memory" errors. But, even videos demonstrating 8 GB vs 16GB vs 32GB vs 64GB shows that tasks are just slower on 8GB of RAM. Sure you can't have 500+ chrome tabs open, but not all of us do. I only have 7 tabs open max. Do you REALLY need dozens of tabs open? You don't look at all 12+ tabs at once. Bookmark it and visit it later.

Also, your comment about the iPad suspending processes doesn't really fit all scenarios. I tested Affinity Photo HARD on iPad Pro and did the same thing on my iMac. The amount of RAM Affinity Photo used on my iMac was more RAM than the iPad had installed. So unless my iPad magically increased its RAM, some other enhancements were made.
 
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seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
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i never said it was a chip feature , i was referring to the new mba/mbp.

its simple , it can work that way and be efficient.

its a matter of arm's arch. short execution pipeline , ability to move data in half the time x86 can. the biggest problem is folks on these forums have zero ARM arch. experience and assume its the same as an intel chip....smh....
But why would anyone *want* it to?

Even the most casual user doesn't expect their apps to just suspend in the background on a full fledged computer, laptop or desktop, every time they tab away from them, that's a massive step backwards in how people use laptops and desktops (don't forget, we're talking about the new mini too), for absolutely no reason. It's a workaround on tablets to get around limitations to the form factor (especially how large a battery you can cram into the form factor) that people accept because heavy multitasking on even an iPad Pro right now is not something people generally expect from that kind of UI. Why would you want it ported to a Mac when the better answer, one that in terms of computer components doesnt cost much, is more RAM (which I'm pretty certain the next gen AS SoCs will support on die, and 16GB is already supported now, the main problem a lot of folks have is that if you live somewhere where BTO is limited you may get stuck with 8 like it or not)?

I have lots of CPU arch experience, including ARM, I have literally been paid to do cross arch performance optimizations as an engineer, your argument is just silly
 
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rafark

macrumors 68000
Sep 1, 2017
1,841
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I totally agree. 8gb is actually *a lot* for most people. My mom uses a Windows laptop with 4 gigs and she barely complains. Browsers nowadays use a lot of ram but still not enough to fill up 8gb unless you’re a power user in which case I doubt you’d be buying an air anyway....
 
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seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
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I totally agree. 8gb is actually *a lot* for most people. My mom uses a Windows laptop with 4 gigs and she barely complains. Browsers nowadays use a lot of ram but still not enough to fill up 8gb unless you’re a power user in which case I doubt you’d be buying an air anyway....
My wife is a teacher, hardly a software engineer, and when you combine zoom, the videos and docs and other resources she keeps open, plus virtual lab software and a pile of browser tabs she easily eats 8GB of RAM
 

seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
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Not anymore with M1 chips. macOS now is more advanced iPad OS
What are you even talking about? MacOS didn't become a different OS because of the ongoing arch switch. They're both Darwin at their core, as they always have been, and some iPadOS/iOS frameworks have been added because there's no need for cross-compiling, but it's still a different OS at the user level, with different use cases and different user expectations. I mean, you get that Big Sur runs on Intel machines too, right? I'm typing to you on one right now, it's still MacOS

CPU arch and OS are not the same thing, if I run Debian on ARM, POWER, x86 or SPARC it's still Debian, it's still Linux. There might be some frameworks that are unsupported or unavailable because they rely on specific instruction sets (WINE comes to mind as an obvious one), but it's still the same OS. The same is true here with MacOS.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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What are you even talking about? MacOS didn't become any different because of the ongoing arch switch. They're both Darwin at their core, as they always have been, and some iPadOS/iOS frameworks have been added because there's no need for cross-compiling, but it's still a different OS at the user level, with different use cases and different user expectations. I mean, you get that Big Sur runs on Intel machines too, right? I'm typing to you on one right now, it's still MacOS
macOS didn't become any different? Running iPhone and iPad apps natively is no difference compared to how macOS ran before? Really?

Have you ever used an iPad Pro? The fact that I really pushed Affinity Photo to its limits as a test with thousands of layers when my iPad Pro only had 4GB of RAM and I performed the same test on my iMac that has 128GB of RAM and Affinity Photo showed it was taking up 9 GB of RAM. Unless my iPad magically gained more RAM, there are clearly some benefits here. And the fact that macOS now, natively, can run iPad apps means I can run that same iPad version of Affinity Photo and get lower memory.
 
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seek3r

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Aug 16, 2010
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macOS didn't become any different? Running iPhone and iPad apps natively is no difference compared to how macOS ran before? Really?

Have you ever used an iPad Pro? The fact that I really pushed Affinity Photo to its limits as a test with thousands of layers when my iPad Pro only had 4GB of RAM and I performed the same test on my iMac that has 128GB of RAM and Affinity Photo showed it was taking up 9 GB of RAM. Unless my iPad magically gained more RAM, there are clearly some benefits here. And the fact that macOS now, natively, can run iPad apps means I can run that same iPad version of Affinity Photo and get lower memory.

Yes, that's a new capability, it's not a change in the paradigm of a desktop OS (it's also something that's been present for devs in a limited fashion for a while when building iOS apps).

I really don't think you understand the difference between capability and *use*. The iPad Pro is an incredibly fast machine, but it's also a completely different UX and people use it differently and have different expectations than they do from a laptop. People do not expect desktop applications to pause or close when tabbed away from in desktop computing, period. We had that, years ago, we got better, we got real multitasking, there's a reason multifinder on the Apple side was such a big deal. The tradeoffs needed for an iPad style device are not necessary for a macbook pro or air or mini and nobody wants them there. Going there just so you can justify "nObOdY nEeDs MoRe RaM" as a talking point is absurd. And of course Apple *isnt* going that way, again you can get the new machines with up to 16GB of RAM now, but again, for people without access to BTO systems that may not be available, and that sucks (for that matter you can't get the mini with the high RAM amounts you used to, which also sucks since there's a lot of folks who could use that), which is kinda the point people are trying to get through your head here without luck.

BTW the way we get to the merge of how software works that you seem to convinced is here already is having fast enough persistent storage that it becomes RAM, RAM that holds state without power. While there are prototypes of several ways of doing that at modern memory speeds and latency, and some very very expensive and limited pieces of tech out there for it, it's not here yet. It's core memory, mark 2, and we arent there yet for consumers.
 
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Ethosik

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Oct 21, 2009
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Yes, that's a new capability, it's not a change in the paradigm of a desktop OS (it's also something that's been present for devs in a limited fashion for a while when building iOS apps).

I really don't think you understand the difference between capability and *use*. The iPad Pro is an incredibly fast machine, but it's also a completely different UX and people use it differently and have different expectations than they do from a laptop. People do not expect desktop applications to pause or close when tabbed away from in desktop computing, period. We had that, years ago, we got better, we got real multitasking, there's a reason multifinder on the Apple side was such a big deal. The tradeoffs needed for an iPad style device are not necessary for a macbook pro or air or mini and nobody wants them there. Going there just so you can justify "nObOdY nEeDs MoRe RaM" as a talking point is absurd. And of course Apple *isnt* going that way, again you can get the new machines with up to 16GB of RAM now, but again, for people without access to BTO systems that may not be available, and that sucks (for that matter you can't get the mini with the high RAM amounts you used to, which also sucks since there's a lot of folks who could use that), which is kinda the point people are trying to get through your head here without luck.

BTW the way we get to the merge of how software works that you seem to convinced is here already is having fast enough persistent storage that it becomes RAM, RAM that holds state without power. While there are prototypes of several ways of doing that at modern memory speeds and latency, and some very very expensive and limited pieces of tech out there for it, it's not here yet. It's core memory, mark 2, and we arent there yet for consumers.
Okay that is enough. Stop shoving words down my throat. Where did I say nobody EVER needs more RAM? I have specifically stated NUMEROUS times that statistical analysis, 16K video production, dozens of virtual machines, and many many more things DO REQUIRE more RAM. We even have a server at work that has 4TB of RAM and it NEEDS it. So do not go around saying I am just posting in threads saying:

Going there just so you can justify "nObOdY nEeDs MoRe RaM" as a talking point is absurd

On my iMac I have 128 GB of RAM. I need this for many virtual machines, Kubernetes containers and many things I have listed before. So please, stop shoving words down my throat. I NEVER said "nObOdY nEeDs MoRe RaM"
 
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