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JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
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I'm pretty sure that most Mac users aren't comp sci majors.
Granted I didn't go to a big name school, but I'd say a good 1/3 of the students in my CS classes were using Macs. The ratio was higher in the Unix and (of course) the iOS classes.
And that's a good thing. I'd rather see more MR commenters with math, physics, or EE degrees than comp sci.
Let be real, we're most likely to get Arts and Humanities degrees here.
That said, the average MR commenter seems to be running notorious resource pig Google Chrome with 15-20 tabs. If these are CS graduates, the world is doomed.

:p
Hey, some of the smartest people I know (yes that includes CS grads) are tab hoarders!
 

Herrpod

macrumors 65816
May 29, 2019
1,000
1,979
I disagree. My 2015 MBA has 8GB and I have several applications open. I'm not doing graphical design or video editing but I'm definitely feeling the constraints of 8GB. Web browsers themselves use a lot of resources these days. 8GB is definitely constraining these days which is why I went with 16GB on the M1 MBA I ordered.
And yet my iPad does fine with less than 8gb and doesn’t refresh browser tabs. The Air will be fine with 8.
 
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bklement

Cancelled
Oct 3, 2019
336
495
For the Air, there's no real reason to get more than 8. If you need 16 on an Air, you probably actually need a MBP.
Yes, there is. The touchbar pro's are unusable if you use programs with hotkeys including function keys.
 

EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
All kinds of strange things crop up in this thread.

1. RAM requirements are pretty much independent of instruction set. Data is what requires RAM, the RAM footprint of the instruction code is typically much, much smaller.
2. Caches don't help at all with RAM size requirements. Caches help with average latency as seen by the cores, as well as average bandwidth. But NOT with footprint. If you need more than 8GB of RAM, caches won't help at all.
3. Fast SSD:s does help reduce the impact of paging for data as you run out of RAM. This is important, as that is the scenario where regular people most clearly perceive that they are running out of RAM. The clack-clack-clack of mechanical disks is gone, and speed from PCIe SSDs is more than an order of magnitude faster than the mechanical disks. It is also still more than an order of magnitude slower than RAM in both latency and bandwidth however, so if you run out of RAM, your performance will still drop massively. But for short bursts (swapping in the data of a background app shifted to the foreground for instance) it's nowhere near as painful as it used to be. CPU instruction set doesn't affect this at all. Hardware resources for encryption and compression can affect it to some modest degree. SSD performance typically degrade a bit over time/usage, and as it is getting full. Hence it makes sense to have some margins in SSD capacity to alleviate both of these.
4. A unified memory subsystem means that the graphics data consume application data space. This is business as usual (actually it might be a bit better) if you were running integrated graphics before, but it is worse in terms of RAM required if you are used to having a GPU with its own local memory.

TLDR: Nothing has significantly changed in terms of RAM requirements if you compare with previous integrated graphics systems. But since you can't upgrade the memory you need to make some reasonable projections about your future use of your Mac to decide how much RAM you want, and order it from the start (if possible).
 

makzr

macrumors member
Nov 29, 2016
42
69
Germany
People think Mac OS is gonna somehow magically start using less RAM but the truth is, Mac OS is still bloated as it was, maybe even more so with Big Sur. Go look at the Activity Monitor if you don’t believe me.

Maybe it will become more efficient and less bloated when they ditch x86 libraries, but we are still years away from that.
The Activity Monitor doesn‘t show the real usage, it shows allocation ... man, how hard is it to accept that?

Having 8 of 8GB is perfectly fine. Unused memory is wasted memory.

If you want to use the Activity Monitor, watch for „Compressed“ and „Swap Used“. As long as macOS doesn‘t compress tons of memory and start writing large amounts to the swap file everything is fine.

That‘s what „full“ memory looks like:
1605434387981.png

7 of 8 GB in use, 10GB swap file, 5GB compressed, memory pressure is high.

That‘s still perfect fine:
1605434730959.png

6 of 8 GB in use, 260MB swap file, 300MB compressed.

This is also fine:
1605434838749.png

6 of 8 in use, 1GB compressed, 0GB swap file.


ps: I agree that macOS is more bloated than is should be. But it runs perfectly fine on 8GB for regular users and even for light pro usage.
 
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Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
People think Mac OS is gonna somehow magically start using less RAM but the truth is, Mac OS is still bloated as it was, maybe even more so with Big Sur. Go look at the Activity Monitor if you don’t believe me.

Maybe it will become more efficient and less bloated when they ditch x86 libraries, but we are still years away from that.
I think you confuse what activity monitor shows..it shows allocation and how its used
 
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Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
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People with 6-8 gb ram on windows10 should be fine under 8gb ram under arm macos
I see some diff in ram management from macos under arm than intel macos mac mini with arm dev kit and intel one
 

Marshall73

macrumors 68030
Apr 20, 2015
2,713
2,837
Now with you saying 99 percent, do you have evidence to back this up or are you talking about something in which you have no knowledge of? The Youtube channel Max Tech which is a very Apple centric channel did a good comparison of 8GB, 16, 32GB, and 64GB. There was a notable performance boost throughout moving to 16GB or higher.


“8 Gigabytes is simply not enough even with basic web browsing on chrome. It suffered greatly in basically every single test. Taking almost twice as long for video and photo editing. If you’re a gamer you will need at least 16GB of RAM for a smooth gaming experience.”
So, what you are saying is Chrome sucks and don’t put that garbage on your Mac. ;)
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,523
19,679
All kinds of strange things crop up in this thread.

1. RAM requirements are pretty much independent of instruction set. Data is what requires RAM, the RAM footprint of the instruction code is typically much, much smaller.
2. Caches don't help at all with RAM size requirements. Caches help with average latency as seen by the cores, as well as average bandwidth. But NOT with footprint. If you need more than 8GB of RAM, caches won't help at all.

Exactly! I find it very strange that some people claim that ARM Macs will somehow magically double the effective amount of RAM. Memory is memory, Apple Silicon won't change that simple fact.

3. Fast SSD:s does help reduce the impact of paging for data as you run out of RAM. This is important, as that is the scenario where regular people most clearly perceive that they are running out of RAM. The clack-clack-clack of mechanical disks is gone, and speed from PCIe SSDs is more than an order of magnitude faster than the mechanical disks. It is also still more than an order of magnitude slower than RAM in both latency and bandwidth however, so if you run out of RAM, your performance will still drop massively. But for short bursts (swapping in the data of a background app shifted to the foreground for instance) it's nowhere near as painful as it used to be. CPU instruction set doesn't affect this at all. Hardware resources for encryption and compression can affect it to some modest degree.

Just a few things I'd like to add here. Most of the time running out of RAM means that the total memory usage of all the open apps exceeds the amount of available RAM. Fast SSDs and memory compression can work wonders in this case. Reloading browser tab memory from SSD is almost always faster than the usual tab switch animation, which results in a seamless user experience. So 8GB can indeed be more than plenty even for a heavy multitasker as long as the currently active tasks (the one the user directly interacts with) need less than 8GB.

Where compression/SSD won't help though if you actually need more RAM at a given time. If the system has to swap memory in and out for an active application, you will have lag. Same applies if multiple applications have to be active simultaneously (as is the case for some development workflows where you have multiple VMs open with active components).

Overall, I think that the RAM is becoming less critical to ensure smooth multi-tasking operation, but one needs to make sure that one has enough RAM for the relevant workflows.

4. A unified memory subsystem means that the graphics data consume application data space. This is business as usual (actually it might be a bit better) if you were running integrated graphics before, but it is worse in terms of RAM required if you are used to having a GPU with its own local memory.

This is not necessarily the case. Anything in the GPU memory has to first pass though the CPU memory, so even on a system with separate GPU RAM you will have significant system RAM usage dedicated to GPU operation. Furthermore, GPU resources are frequently mirrored in the system RAM by the driver so that they can be reloaded/synchronized quickly. In practice, having more VRAM actually often means that more of your system RAM being stolen by the driver.

Apple's implementation of unified memory simplifies this entire driver spiel massively. There are no copies to worry about, no synchronization, no DMA transfers. Everything is just virtual memory. Pages that are use less will be compressed/offloaded, and if the GPU needs them, they will be transparently loaded again. The overall memory allocation efficiency improves tremendously. Frankly, unified memory is probably the aspect of Apple Silicon that excites me the most — this will make GPUs so much more useful.

And of course, let's not forget about texture compression — Apple GPUs are leaders in compression standards support, which can dramatically increase the size of effective memory. Using latest ASTC compression, you can fit dozens (or more) of megabytes of texture data into the 8GB RAM space without any perceivable quality loss, while still having enough space for your application code.

That said, the average MR commenter seems to be running notorious resource pig Google Chrome with 15-20 tabs. If these are CS graduates, the world is doomed.

15-20 tabs? Why so little? I have 30 tabs open right now, and that's a fresh Big Sur install :)

Granted I didn't go to a big name school, but I'd say a good 1/3 of the students in my CS classes were using Macs. The ratio was higher in the Unix and (of course) the iOS classes.

In the classes I teach (mostly humanities) I'd too estimate that around 1/3 of students use a Mac.
 

0906742

Cancelled
Apr 11, 2018
2,313
613
I believe that virtual memory (swapping) will be faster for the M1. If swapping latencies are low enough then you may indeed appear to have the same performance from a machine with less physical memory. This phenomenon is not new.
Do you mean their SSD's are as fast as RAM? I doubt that. Actually in my MBP 2019 SSD is not very fast compared to cheap NMVe drives sold separately, so unless M1 comes with something totally different I don't think it is possible.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,523
19,679
Do you mean their SSD's are as fast as RAM? I doubt that. Actually in my MBP 2019 SSD is not very fast compared to cheap NMVe drives sold separately, so unless M1 comes with something totally different I don't think it is possible.

They won't be as fast but since the SSD controller is now integrated on chip and Apple has likely gone full custom with their SSDs, we can expect the latency and the queue depth to have improved significantly. Qurious about the benchmarks.
 

Herrpod

macrumors 65816
May 29, 2019
1,000
1,979
Why are you comparing a Mac with an iPad? Macos and iPad OS are different.
Because the line between the two is becoming ever increasingly more blurry. Fact remains, 8gb is perfect for the Air. Even Apple tells people that. And they're telling you with the removal of the fan that you shouldn't be doing anything that taxes it very hard, because the performance is going to dip without a fan to cool it. If you think the software you're going to run requires 16gb, the Air is NOT for you.
 
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ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,638
Indonesia
Because the line between the two is becoming ever increasingly more blurry. Fact remains, 8gb is perfect for the Air. Even Apple tells people that. And they're telling you with the removal of the fan that you shouldn't be doing anything that taxes it very hard, because the performance is going to dip without a fan to cool it. If you think the software you're going to run requires 16gb, the Air is NOT for you.
Did you watch the Keynote? Apple literally said to use the MacBook Air for photo and video editing to show off the power of the M1. It's ridiculous to then tell consumers that the MacBook can only be used for non taxing software.

If Apple think MacBook Air shouldn't use more than 8GB RAM, then why have the option for BTO to begin with?
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,571
US
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deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,571
US
If Apple think MacBook Air shouldn't use more than 8GB RAM, then why have the option for BTO to begin with?
Oh let's not be disingenuous -- surely you understand that Apple can certainly "think" that most MBA users don't need more than 8GB, while providing the option of more for the (smaller) portion of users who do.

Edit - I misunderstood the context, my error. Disregard.
 
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deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,571
US
Having a uniform touch surface instead of separate, physical keys is the problem, not what it displays. Having to look at the keyboard every time I want to use a function key diminishes any gain the bigger termal envelope supposed to give.
Yet you said the touch bar pros are "unusable" - which clearly isn't the case since you can still use the hotkeys.

Touchbar may be less efficient for hotkeys for you due to the discontinuity, I won't dispute that. Just interested in helping folks better understand the tradeoffs and what's possible/not possible. Thus clarifying that it's not unusable in the conventional sense of the term.
 
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filmbuff

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2011
968
364
Did you watch the Keynote? Apple literally said to use the MacBook Air for photo and video editing to show off the power of the M1. It's ridiculous to then tell consumers that the MacBook can only be used for non taxing software.

If Apple think MacBook Air shouldn't use more than 8GB RAM, then why have the option for BTO to begin with?

8gb is surely enough for the photo and video editing most people are likely to do on a Macbook Air. I mean I used to edit HD video on a 2012 Air with integrated graphics, now I do 4K on my 13" MBP with only 8GB RAM and integrated graphics. Could it be faster? Probably. Does it matter for editing a 20 minute video every 6 months? Not at all.
 

Runs For Fun

macrumors 65816
Nov 6, 2017
1,138
2,601
People think Mac OS is gonna somehow magically start using less RAM but the truth is, Mac OS is still bloated as it was, maybe even more so with Big Sur. Go look at the Activity Monitor if you don’t believe me.

Maybe it will become more efficient and less bloated when they ditch x86 libraries, but we are still years away from that.
Yep. Big Sur has felt slightly slower for me. Inevitable for running the latest OS on older and older hardware.
 
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