Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,869
Okay, so that took a long time to write, and I'm not at all sure if I've written it well enough to be clear to non-engineers (I am definitely not a professional columnist), and I haven't made progress on a huge number of things I wanted to touch on.

I do feel like writing some more on the topic. Maybe tomorrow. If any of you have feedback, or requests of things you'd like to understand more about, please speak up.
 

Azl

macrumors member
Jul 21, 2012
63
25
Karlsruhe, Germany
But it is pretty easy to get an intel mac under „memory pressure“ i have not yet seen an example when someone managed to do that to an m1. And that with people actually trying hard to get them there.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,869
In all things, we need quantitative data. I have yet to see anything like rigorous testing of whether it's easier or harder to push M1 into memory pressure.

Rigor would require tight controls in all areas. At minimum, you'd want to open exactly the same set of apps, load exactly the same set of docs in those apps, and do exactly the same things in the same sequence. Ideally, you should script it all so that a robot is doing the sequencing of operations. You'd also want to have data logging to monitor memory use as all this was happening. You'd also want very similarly configured machines, e.g. both having 8GB RAM / 256GB Apple SSD. You'd also want to make sure that the person running the tests rebooted the machine before each test run, and ran only the test.

That might all sound absurd, but when we try to test claims like "system X uses less memory than system Y", that's what we actually have to do to prove it for sure. Anecdotal claims where there is literally no head-to-head comparison, much less a well controlled one, just don't mean anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: consumeritis

IowaLynn

macrumors 68020
Feb 22, 2015
2,145
589
Are there 3rd party apps ready now to actually see what is going on, or are we unfortunately left to rely on Activity Monitor? I want a 2nd or 3rd opinion, doctor.

When I'm using Edge in Windows it has its own task manager to show different activities taking place and cpu, memory, time, network traffic for tabs, extensions, etc.

Macworld has some glossed over "articles," fluf, today about m1 and it's just kool-aid kids.

Sounds like a lot if parallel computing goes in inside AS m1.
 

Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
3,695
1,665
Utah
Accelerating retain/release is important, and a really big clue as to why M1 is so fast, but does nothing to reduce the amount of memory a program needs.
Gruber acknowledges that, as everyone else does, in a vague seemingly tautological way that amounts to "if it really needs more RAM, it really needs more RAM."

But his claim isn't about that, it's about equal performance with less RAM, or faster performance with the same RAM. In that regard, speed does matter.

Most programs can run with varying amounts of RAM. If machine A has 32GB, it might run program X with 16GB, say. Machine B, with only 16GB RAM, can still run X, but might use only use 10GB. If all else were equal, A would prrobably run X faster. But if B has speed advantages in RAM use and perhaps other ways, it might run X just as fast or faster.

That's the main point, as I understand it. Just to clarify what I think Gruber means about a couple other points:

He mentions that Android uses garbage collection and iOS uses reference counting, and that's one big reason why an iPhone needs less RAM than an Android phone. This is true! Of the two memory management techniques, GC tends to be more wasteful of RAM. But it's a non sequitur here. We're only concerned with macOS on Intel versus macOS on M1, and the frameworks aren't going to count references any harder on M1 than they do on Intel. Apple has given us no reason to believe that memory management at this level is any different on M1.
His point there is only to illustrate the principle, not to claim the same particular difference applies with Intel, though that might confuse some people who aren't reading as carefully as you are.

Gruber mentions that he has a lot of stuff open on his 16GB review unit, and everything's smooth. But that's not an impossible result for Intel Macs either.
He may be comparing to machines comparable in cost, size, etc. The comparisons I've seen are remarkable, though not yet rigorous as you point out in your other post.
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,382
3,439
London
I thought 8GB was enough, but.I was wrong:

Screenshot 2020-11-21 at 22.17.18.png
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,142
7,120
What apps are you running that would cause that much memory swap ?
It looks like IntelliJ IDEA has about 5.57GB in his screen shot. Is that RAM usage?

Typically large software development projects needs 16GB of RAM or even more.
 

crawfish963

macrumors 6502a
Apr 16, 2010
942
1,671
Texas
But it is pretty easy to get an intel mac under „memory pressure“ i have not yet seen an example when someone managed to do that to an m1. And that with people actually trying hard to get them there.
I believe The Verge was able to but it was a rediculous load that will not be practically done by anyone. Something like 4 4k exports with 100+ chrome tabs open plus several other applications. Not realistic.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
You are incorrect. I have 30+tabs open in Safari, 30+tabs open in Firefox and only 8gb RAM. Further, my memory pressure is reported as green by activity monitor. This is in a 2020 MacBook Air, Intel. So you are clearly wrong.
You do realize that not all tabs use the same amount of RAM, right? Might be worth realizing before you make sweeping statements like that...
 

dingclancy23

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2015
250
339
I am giving up. I am trying to make the M1 Pro slow down, and I can't. Pay attention to my swap size...
This is crazy good. And this is not a discussion of the RAM anymore. There is some magic going on here that cannot explaiend by just more RAM.

That is what people here have been saying all along. This is not your traditional computer.
 

dburkhanaev

macrumors 6502
Aug 8, 2018
295
170
They said these are their most popular Macs, not necessarily entry level ones. They showcased some not-so-entry-level uses during the presentation. I think we have all been overstating what we need to get the job done and what we want or think we want. Maybe. Don’t know.
2 ports only. Max 16gb RAM. No 10gb Ethernet option on the mini where it was there before. These aren’t ASi equivalent to existing Pro machines. Port bandwidth alone proves that. And you can’t just hub everything through two channels of thunderbolt, even if it’s TB4.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,895
I had to put my 2c in.

RAM usage is a function of software design, and not hardware design.
Apple transitioning into its own hardware design does not mean software will be using less RAM.
RAM is RAM is still true, whether on Apple silicon or Intel.

The reason software/app developers use more RAM in their software designs is because in the Intel paradigm, there is a huge disparity in speed between RAM and SSD/disks. Since data is stored on SSD/disks, running operations on that data will be much faster if that data is copied to RAM. Thus, to allow a great user experience, more data on high speed RAM is the way to go.
Now, on apple silicon paradigm, the speed disparity is much much less. Thus, running operations on data stored in SSD/disks is a much more reasonable proposition than it is on Intel’s.
Software devs can then re-design the software to copy less data to RAM, and still be able to provide great user experience.

Less RAM is a decision from software devs. Apple simply made the decision making easier.
how does this makes sense? The same SSD used in Wintel machines is used in Apple machines. Are you saying the faster the SSD the less RAM needed?
 

Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
3,695
1,665
Utah
2 ports only. Max 16gb RAM. No 10gb Ethernet option on the mini where it was there before. These aren’t ASi equivalent to existing Pro machines. Port bandwidth alone proves that. And you can’t just hub everything through two channels of thunderbolt, even if it’s TB4.
The Mini went back a step, but it's also significantly cheaper than before. No doubt more fully-featured versions with M* chips will come later.

The laptops have the same ports and RAM limits as what they replaced. The external monitor support decreased some, which will affect a few pros who prefer base-level machines.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pioneer9k

MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,895
I thought 8GB was enough, but.I was wrong:

View attachment 1676212

I am not sure you understand that graph. You see where its says pressure 24%? Thats the important piece, this means your system is very relaxed. You have long way to reach 100%. You have more than enough.

Sluggishness is probably due to emulation or software hiccups not the hardware.
 

thettareddast

macrumors 6502
Aug 29, 2016
401
539
So what we're now hoping for is that Gruber will go on to introduce some kind of evidence that this co-design has resulted in lower memory consumption. But that evidence never arrives. At best he just repeats anecdotes of people being excited that they replaced an Intel Mac with lots of memory with a M1 Mac that has less, and the M1 Mac was still faster. But this doesn't show that M1 has memory-use-reducing magic!
He didn't make that claim so why is he bound to explain it? He simply said - which seems observably true - that it performs fast even with little RAM i.e. there is less RAM dependence to maintain performance.

Which is all that an end user is interested in. That it runs fast and well.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,869
He didn't make that claim so why is he bound to explain it? He simply said - which seems observably true - that it performs fast even with little RAM i.e. there is less RAM dependence to maintain performance.

Which is all that an end user is interested in. That it runs fast and well.
Regardless of Gruber's intent, many are taking that section of his article as evidence that M1 has magic which greatly reduces memory use for virtually any task. I can't make Gruber explain anything (he's probably never reading this thread), nor am I trying to. I'm just addressing the audience here and trying to let people know that the magic isn't real.

There are some known reasons to expect M1 Macs to save some memory relative to Intel. There are also some known reasons to expect them to use more. (I want to cover these in more detail in a future post.)

I have seen no reason to believe M1 has more than mildly changed how much memory is used for most tasks. If 16GB wasn't enough to run your workload on an Intel Mac without frequent performance loss due to swapping, it still won't be enough now.

And there's evidence in plain sight that Apple's product line managers agree with me. Why have they kept the high end versions of the Intel 13.3" MacBook Pro and Intel Mac Mini around, despite the fact that their CPUs and GPUs look really sad next to M1? One of the most important reasons is the topic of this conversation.
 

thettareddast

macrumors 6502
Aug 29, 2016
401
539
I have seen no reason to believe M1 has more than mildly changed how much memory is used for most tasks. If 16GB wasn't enough to run your workload on an Intel Mac without frequent performance loss due to swapping, it still won't be enough now.

And there's evidence in plain sight that Apple's product line managers agree with me. Why have they kept the high end versions of the Intel 13.3" MacBook Pro and Intel Mac Mini around, despite the fact that their CPUs and GPUs look really sad next to M1? One of the most important reasons is the topic of this conversation.
But these are tangential conclusions tenuously linked to the original contention that 8GB is sufficient for many users on M1, due to how the entire system manages memory

There are many possible reasons for the latter:

  • Users of the high-end system have bigger dependency on:
    • Software compatibility for critical apps - the ARM transition is not complete​
    • Support for peripherals e.g. multiple high res screens​
  • This is just base performance for the architecture, they'll introduce stronger M-chip along with even better systems (e.g. new displays) for products that are more position-appropriate
  • They'll package more ram in later production runs when the manufacturing matures with higher yields (maybe...)

So nobody is saying 8GB or 16GB is end all and be all. They'll introduce more in higher end machines. But it seems very plausible now that 8GB is delivering overall same or better performance than 16GB did with Intel configuration.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.