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Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
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Utah
They actually don't add up more than the memory in the machine unless the app is being buggy, which can happen with any app. The pictures I posted, the app is not being buggy. At the end of the day this is what this is what Apple says, its ALSO what the terminal is reading. You have been completely unable to provide a counter argument. This is where Apple says to go, and I will take their word over yours. If you know more than Apple does about their own software please enlighten me. Again like I asked you before is Apple wrong saying this is where to go to check memory usage?

And I'm very much aware that its 180 with the student discount, which is what I used for both of my 16GB MBAs. It is why I said "more like an extra 80" dollars since the student discount cuts 100 over the price of the machine. 180 - 100 = 80, simple math. Lastly, I said from the very beginning that 8GB will be enough for some, others will regret it, as I did. That's a fact and others share the same view. There isn't a counter argument for this, sorry. No need to wrap my head around something that isn't up for dispute ?
Ha, buggy software, except when you're using it, I see.

I'm not disagreeing with Apple, whose language is so vague it would be hard to disagree with. I'm disagreeing with your interpretation and application of it, which doesn't follow, or even make sense when you say things such as that MacOS allocates more RAM than it uses, since what you quote from Apple apparently equates those terms. In any case, my impression is that what Apple reports as RAM usage can't be directly compared for performance purposes between systems, only very roughly at best.

The simple math is that it's $180 more to get the additional 8GB. The $100 is subtracted if you get 8GB too, so it's still $180 difference. The rest is sophistry.

No one is disagreeing that some will regret 8GB. Some will regret 16 too. It's things like "16GB is what most users should get" that remain doubtful.
 
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alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
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yes. Exactly. Thank you. Can’t stand these little boys who think more ram in their laptop makes up for any other inadequacies they may have. The world has changed, the M1 dances around any intel system with any amount of ram.
been using edo ram till ddr4 and also most of proc in market (intel 80286 till now,itanium real 64 proc, amd apu, ryzen).Rule system wouldnt be changed easily if proc change. Like us , database rule still the sama db size equivilant to x certain ram size so we can get data faster. Like sql server on mac we need to used docker min 4gb intel and wouldnt change spec easily.So lumpsump all ram still need 8 gb and above.

Ram not enough swap disk . Arm also will less focus on background process compare to normal intel would not interfere process same time either background or not .

Will i buy arm soon available . Yeah maybe but for meeting client still using huawei d5 ryzen because hdmi (mega important) and ipad. .
 

armoured

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2018
211
163
ether
The folks who are saying 8gb is not enough are still stuck in the intel model and android model of structure. The mac is now like the iPhone. iPhone needs Less ram to perform tasks that an android needs more ram to perform. This is why for most people who were fine with 16gb on intel would be fine with 8 on m1 and those who needed 32gb on intel MacBook pros are fine with 16gb

it’s a paradigm shift

The iOS/ipadOS app/memory management models are different in really significant ways from macos. So no, there's no obvious reason (that I'm aware of) that less memory is optimal on the M1 macs compared to intel macs. Certainly not because ios and macos have some similarities. iOS is much more strict about what requirements apps should adhere to and the OS will actively kill/quit apps when it needs memory. The iOS model is much more explicit that users should not need to quit - let the OS handle it. (Related to that is the explicit permissions structure about using resources when apps not open - somewhat related to the 'multitasking exists but priority to the active app, get in the way and we'll shut you down.).

The 'browse apps' function in iOS that users think means 'apps that are open' isn't exactly accurate - they may be nothing more than a placeholder but actually be moved (mostly) out of memory.

As I understand it (or best I can explain it), the big difference is that it is inherent to iOS that apps should always be in a "kill-able" state and ready to restart back to where they left off, and that all of the info needed to do so may be ejected from ram at any time. (A bit simplistic because there are procedures to warn the app to free up resources and do some handling if needed - but if they don't, they'll still be kicked out). In this paradigm, the ideal is that what I've called "kill-able" is probably more akin to an app-level sleep mode ("be ready to wake up back to previous state quickly"). Obviously in macos apps can do some of this on their own (like re-opening closed documents or web pages), but they're mostly not forced to.

But: even if Big Sur brought in more of this (not sure about that), this is NOT unique to the M1s.

Or bluntly: if people think they can 'get by' with less RAM in M1 macs, there's no new paradigm - probably what they are perceiving is that the system is much faster overall and there's less of a penalty (compared to what they were using before) to running out of memory.

An analogy: in hard drive days, the 'best' advice to speed things up (all else equal) was 'more RAM' - going to hard drive for swap etc was SO much slower, the penalty for running out of memory was enormous. And of course there were core functions like starting up and loading info from 'disk', launching new programs, etc, that 'more RAM' didn't help. (Moving from a slow HDD to a faster one barely helped, but it did help)

When SSDs became available/widely used, the relative benefits changed. Ballpark SSDs are perhaps 100X faster than HDDs (latency actually more improved than data transfer, writes less so than reads, so a simplification). Now the heuristic became "if you're still running an HDD as your system disk - switch to an SSD. After you've done that, upgrade your ram."

SSDs changed the hit from going to swap (dramatically), and they also sped up things that more RAM didn't help as much as it used to (booting, launching, reading in data for first time, etc). On an HDD system, active swapping meant a HUGE performance penalty, possibly making your system unusable - and I've lived that. Switching to an SSD meant your (e.g. 4gb) system now magically had 'enough' ram, whereas with HDD you really really needed 8 or 12gb or your system would choke and die from time to time. But the truth was, the upgrade to 8 or 12gb was still a good idea - only the cost/benefit trade-off of more ram changed a lot. (Demanding users would absolutely switch to an SSD and upgrade the ram.)

How this relates to the M1s: everything is faster. Bottlenecks less significant. Penalty to going to swap is less significant (not order of magnitude better, but significant). Other benefits / improvements make these penalties less noticeable.

In other words: if you're coming from an HDD system, everything on the M1 seems magical. It doesn't mean there's no penalty from swap, just much, much less. Probably so much better you don't even notice you're occasionally a bit short of ram. If you're coming from a 'normal' SSD system that's a bit older (slower SSD and ram), maybe five years old, you also might not notice - or only infrequently and decide you can live with it.

That's fine: if you like it, you like it, don't want to pay more because 'fast enough', that's your call. (I suspect you may notice in a few years, but again - your decision, and it's still an improvement).

But NONE OF THAT means or implies that M1 magically uses less memory. You just aren't noticing it - probably because everything so much better, it seems to you like it uses less memory.

Many users may never care and the benefit from more memory too small. That's their call. My 4gb airbook is fine for light use - but can choke and die quickly when memory gets tight. I know from desktop use 8gb was manageable some of the time, 16gb is very good, but 24 or 32 gb is better - noticeably so (24 to 32 is much less noticeable though). (Mind on the desktop going from 16gb to 32 recently was only about a hundred bucks, so a no-brainer for me in terms of cost.)

For me, I'll splurge the $200 to go to 16gb, and it will really be worth it. Everyone else can make their own decision.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,895
My world.

If you feel 8 is enough, sure - fine - go nuts.

RAM is cheap, going large on RAM is the best life-extending move you can do for a machine, and has been since the 80s.

There's a sweet spot in terms of price vs. capacity for consumer machines and right now around 16 GB is it. Remember - that 8 GB is shared with the GPU as well.

On a premium machine, getting stiffed for memory is a psychological wound as well.

I don't know how many times we have said this already but over and over again we have demonstrated how 8 GB on M1 MBP is showing its more than sufficient and beating out its Wintel rivals. If you need more that means you do professional/creative work that needs high end machine in which the current released Mac Mini and MBP are not products for you.

In the future, surely Apple will release iMac, MBP, and Mac Pro with 64Gb and 128GB RAM configurations where you can go crazy with it. This is the entry models for the most basic need.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,142
7,120
I don't know how many times we have said this already but over and over again we have demonstrated how 8 GB on M1 MBP is showing its more than sufficient and beating out its Wintel rivals. If you need more that means you do professional/creative work that needs high end machine in which the current released Mac Mini and MBP are not products for you.

In the future, surely Apple will release iMac, MBP, and Mac Pro with 64Gb and 128GB RAM configurations where you can go crazy with it. This is the entry models for the most basic need.
The Mac mini seems to be a great candidate for 1080p or 4K video work.
 

Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
3,695
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Utah
But: even if Big Sur brought in more of this (not sure about that), this is NOT unique to the M1s.
I agree with much of what you say, but I don't think we know much about whether there are differences between how memory is handled between M1s and Intels. An OS can and does operate differently on different platforms.
 

M1 Processor

macrumors member
Nov 11, 2020
98
62
Ha, buggy software, except when you're using it, I see.

I'm not disagreeing with Apple, whose language is so vague it would be hard to disagree with. I'm disagreeing with your interpretation and application of it, which doesn't follow, or even make sense when you say things such as that MacOS allocates more RAM than it uses, since what you quote from Apple apparently equates those terms. In any case, my impression is that what Apple reports as RAM usage can't be directly compared for performance purposes between systems, only very roughly at best.

The simple math is that it's $180 more to get the additional 8GB. The $100 is subtracted if you get 8GB too, so it's still $180 difference. The rest is sophistry.

No one is disagreeing that some will regret 8GB. Some will regret 16 too. It's things like "16GB is what most users should get" that remain doubtful.

Haha nice try. As a point of reference, I have not have any issues with Activity Monitor. Mind you I have been using MacOS/OS X, since Panther and never had issues with this since it was introduced into Mavericks. I have heard some reports from others and I am giving people like you the benefit of the doubt. It is a piece of software and can have it bugs, just like Safari does from time to time. In any case, Apple says this is where to go and this is where I will go. There language isn't "vauge" at all and they are pretty descriptive. There are definite performance differences between 8GB and 16GB of RAM. I am basing this off of two machines side by side. And again, I am also using terminal commands to match Activity Monitor.

As for the point of RAM. I said "more like" meaning similar, not a precise measurement. If people are afraid to cough up the extra 200 dollars, many people are eligible for discounts which would reduce this if they decided to look. And again I have two MBAs with the student discount, I know exactly how much you save. Nice try trying to twist my words though.

As for "16GB is what most users should get" this is a matter of opinion, it may very well be incorrect, but at least I am providing an argument for my opinion, unlike you. Many users here are reporting that they are having issues with 8GB, myself included. I moved from 8GB to 16GB from these issues and I am sharing my experience. My argument is yes, many users can get by with 8GB of RAM, but for many Apple users a Macbook is a major investment, which they will keep for several years. Two years from now, still well within the lifespan of their device, RAM usage will undoubtedly be higher than it is now, and that user may run issues which cannot be rectified on an non upgrade-able machine. Doubling the RAM, is a small increase in the price of the device, but will be felt immediately and for the life the the device. If you are afraid to cough 200, simply ask Apple for discounts, there are numerous for people if they only looked. That 200 charge will "seem like" less, if they only investigated. One of the places I worked offered a 15 percent discount! It is a solid argument, and at least I am providing an argument. You simply disagree with nothing to back it up.
 

M1 Processor

macrumors member
Nov 11, 2020
98
62
Everyone talks about 8GB being enough today ..... But in 2, 4 or 6 years? Is 8GB enough then too?
All computers I have had require more RAM than less after years go by. The software is updated and sets higher requirements.

If you have the money, why not update RAM then the life of the computer increases.
Exactly. This is my entire argument. The average mac is kept for several years, a small investment goes a long way. And some people in the future will come to regret having 8GB because the system is non-upgradable.
 

Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
3,695
1,665
Utah
at least I am providing an argument for my opinion, unlike you.
That you're unable to track an argument doesn't mean it isn't there. I've made my points clear enough.
Exactly. This is my entire argument. The average mac is kept for several years, a small investment goes a long way. And some people in the future will come to regret having 8GB because the system is non-upgradable.
And, again, some will regret spending the extra money on RAM instead of something else. This just isn't as simple as some want to make it. Depends very much on individual use cases and individual preferences.
 

armoured

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2018
211
163
ether
I agree with much of what you say, but I don't think we know much about whether there are differences between how memory is handled between M1s and Intels. An OS can and does operate differently on different platforms.

They are the same underlying systems. The same operating system. Most apps are working in rosetta without recompile; many apps are being just recompiled with no big changes - nothing significant changed for them, there was no big change in memory handling.

I mean, here you're just outright speculating - it's magical thinking, unless you've got a source for this.

Don't you think if apple really had found a way to use dramatically less memory with M1, they would have touted this as an achievement?

I repeat, apart from speed making memory shortages less painful, there's no reason anyone has made public that the M1 macs use less memory. If that extra speed making it less painful formula works for you, that's fine, but if you're hitting those memory shortages, you ARE giving up performance.
 
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MEJHarrison

macrumors 68000
Feb 2, 2009
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Everyone talks about 8GB being enough today ..... But in 2, 4 or 6 years? Is 8GB enough then too?
All computers I have had require more RAM than less after years go by. The software is updated and sets higher requirements.

I'm not sure that statement is as true today as it used to be. My first computer was a Commodore 64, so I know what you're talking about. You used to get a new computer and it was outdated a year or two later.

But thinking back on more recent times, when I got my last MacBook Pro in early 2014, I asked myself "8GB or 16GB?" When I replaced that laptop earlier this year, I asked myself "8GB or 16GB?" I suspect in 5-7 years when I'm looking to replace it, I may very well ask "8GB or 16GB?". Unless something changes with my job or I pick up a new hobby, I don't suspect my hardware needs will grow significantly in that time.

That's not to say that higher and higher requirements are no longer a thing. But the rate of growth seems to have slacked off considerably from the old days.
 

Apple Knowledge Navigator

macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2010
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I honestly don't understand the purpose of this thread.

"8GB RAM is a disappointment?"

What? Why where you expecting something different to suddenly happen?

Get 16GB and your problem is solved. The choice is no different to pre-M1; get the amount of RAM you're going to need. M1 doesn't change the amount of RAM apps require, it simply changes how quickly the RAM is used.
 

Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
3,695
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Utah
They are the same underlying systems. The same operating system. Most apps are working in rosetta without recompile; many apps are being just recompiled with no big changes - nothing significant changed for them, there was no big change in memory handling.

I mean, here you're just outright speculating - it's magical thinking, unless you've got a source for this.

Don't you think if apple really had found a way to use dramatically less memory with M1, they would have touted this as an achievement?

I repeat, apart from speed making memory shortages less painful, there's no reason anyone has made public that the M1 macs use less memory. If that extra speed making it less painful formula works for you, that's fine, but if you're hitting those memory shortages, you ARE giving up performance.
You've got it backwards about who's speculating. I pointed out facts, that we don't know much about whether there are differences between how memory is handled between M1s and Intels, and that the same OS operates differently on different platforms. You've reached conclusions about both that are highly speculative.

It might make sense to adjust how memory is used if the "pain" of using less is decreased.

I agree nothing directly bearing on the amount of memory needed has been made public by Apple. The vast majority of Mac buyers don't even know what RAM is or why it matters. Apple has emphasized things that most people can understand: speed, energy usage, etc.
M1 doesn't change the amount of RAM apps require, it simply changes how quickly the RAM is used.
Changing how quickly RAM is used, and how fast swap is, can affect how much RAM is required to run smoothly. We don't really know if changes have been made in how RAM is handled in the M1s.
 

Never mind

macrumors 65816
Oct 25, 2018
1,071
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Dunedin, Florida
Everyone talks about 8GB being enough today ..... But in 2, 4 or 6 years? Is 8GB enough then too?
All computers I have had require more RAM than less after years go by. The software is updated and sets higher requirements.

If you have the money, why not update RAM then the life of the computer increases.
Most apps are still using Rosetta and as soon as these apps are upgraded to work with the M1 chip natively, I bet we will see a need of more ram.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,142
7,120
You will need more than $800 for a decent build.
I agree. Unless you want to go VERY CHEAP, I wouldn't get anything less than the RTX 2060 or the AMD 5700XT which are around $300-$400 for the GPU itself. I don't think you can get every other component, shipping and tax for $400.
 
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Robospungo

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2020
286
432
You will need more than $800 for a decent build.
Not true. Even $800 Canadian is more than enough for a gaming setup that will blow the doors clean off an Apple setup.

But I guess it all depends on what you mean by "decent". I take that to mean playing AAA titles at 1080p with good frame rates.
 
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magbarn

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2008
3,021
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Most apps are still using Rosetta and as soon as these apps are upgraded to work with the M1 chip natively, I bet we will see a need of more ram.
I'm hoping the native versions will be much more efficient. When trying to import 200-300 RAW DSLR files my 2012 i7 2.6 Mac mini with 16gb of ram is able to import in Lightroom without stuttering down to a crawl like my 8gb M1 Mac mini does with the memory pressure firmly in the yellow zone. I'm hoping when the native Lightroom Classic comes out it will relieve the memory pressure by being more efficient than Rosetta. Nevertheless, I've already placed an order for the 16gb Mac mini as I don't know when Adobe will get around to releasing the Native version.. There's no "magic" that allows the M1 to use less memory manipulating 45 MP Mirrorless/DSLR files than Intel version.

Before others may say "you're using a low end model to do high end work", my 16gb MacBook Air M1 is able to process the same files almost as fast as my 2019 octacore MBP 16. Significantly faster than my now sold 2020 MBP 13 i7...
 

alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
2,193
524
I'm hoping the native versions will be much more efficient. When trying to import 200-300 RAW DSLR files my 2012 i7 2.6 Mac mini with 16gb of ram is able to import in Lightroom without stuttering down to a crawl like my 8gb M1 Mac mini does with the memory pressure firmly in the yellow zone. I'm hoping when the native Lightroom Classic comes out it will relieve the memory pressure by being more efficient than Rosetta. Nevertheless, I've already placed an order for the 16gb Mac mini as I don't know when Adobe will get around to releasing the Native version.. There's no "magic" that allows the M1 to use less memory manipulating 45 MP Mirrorless/DSLR files than Intel version.

Before others may say "you're using a low end model to do high end work", my 16gb MacBook Air M1 is able to process the same files almost as fast as my 2019 octacore MBP 16. Significantly faster than my now sold 2020 MBP 13 i7...
your signature said you got good macbook pro 2020 ? same result?
 

magbarn

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2008
3,021
2,388
your signature said you got good macbook pro 2020 ? same result?
That was my 2020 i7 MBP loaded 13. I need to update my sig.
It's quad core i7 is outclassed by the M1 in both CPU/GPU.
It's only advantage was 2 extra TB ports and 32gb ram option
 

Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
3,695
1,665
Utah
There's no "magic" that allows the M1 to use less memory manipulating 45 MP Mirrorless/DSLR files than Intel version.
Hard to say based on what you say, since you're not comparing to an 8GB Intel version, nor with native software in both cases.
 

alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
2,193
524
That was my 2020 i7 MBP loaded 13. I need to update my sig.
It's quad core i7 is outclassed by the M1 in both CPU/GPU.
It's only advantage was 2 extra TB ports and 32gb ram option
okay .. i'm waiting also to order but can't yet( not available in apple website). haiya . thinking mac mini 16gb also
 
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