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xav8tor

macrumors 6502a
Mar 30, 2011
533
36
Like you said, I pulled the number 99% out of thin air. However, that doesn't invalidate my point. Additionally, I never said that accessibility was unimportant to everyone, rather I was agreeing with BRLawyer when he said that the improvements to accessibility weren't exciting. Not that all accessibility features were useless, but that the improvements weren't great.

So lets get rid of the straw man and focus on the point:

As I've said twice now, I agree OS X is not moving in the direction I would like to see it go. It is getting dumbed down...considerably. And in answer to you embedded quote that didn't copy, as I said in response to you already, I read the whole thing, and no, normally, invalidation of one (distinctly separate) claim doesn't invalidate the other. He does make some good points, but the manner in which they were presented, and subsequently defended, unfortunately waters them down in the eyes of the majority.
 
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nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,542
406
Middle Earth
There is nothing wrong with Mountain Lion.


This thread has devolved into a bitching session about Accessibility. This isn't surprising because the mere attempt at telling someone that one feature is more important than another is self centered and invites a fight.

The more constructive post would have mentioned existing features and then discussed what features are missing and why such features deserved to be in the Operating System.
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,240
3,499
Pennsylvania
My point (apologies if it got muddled) was simply the bottom part of what you said:

He does make some good points, but the manner in which they were presented, and subsequently defended, unfortunately waters them down in the eyes of the majority.

And it annoyed me that another poster was saying that the lack of understanding for the first bullet was grounds for ignoring the entire list.
 

Justinhub2003

macrumors regular
Jul 17, 2012
137
0
Cincinnati Oh
You do realize that this is only a years worth of work?

Its pretty awesome that Apple has been able to cram all these features into a single year. I mean it took MS 3-4 years to develop the radical changes from Win 7 to Win 8. This is 1 year from Lion to ML.

You need to keep that in Mind. Because apple switched to a yearly update cycle you no longer see drastic changes however in 3 years add up every thing from ML to the 2013 release to 2014 it will end up being a lot of changes from a 3 year release cycle standpoint.


I mean you Act like Lion has been out for 3 years and this was all you got. Its a year old and for me was fine. i never had any issues with Lion
 

nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,542
406
Middle Earth
You need to keep that in Mind. Because apple switched to a yearly update cycle you no longer see drastic changes however in 3 years add up every thing from ML to the 2013 release to 2014 it will end up being a lot of changes from a 3 year release cycle standpoint.

I think this is beneficial for consumers. The longer the development cycle the more exiting the features can be but this comes at a cost because it widens the chasm that developers face with regard to updating their applications.

So in the end longer cycles lead to more fragmentation of the OS install base making it more difficult for developers to leverage new frameworks. It also means the OS upgrade is likely more expensive which slows adoption.

I think Apple has it right, get the updates out in 12-18 months and make it a no brainer for developers to support the new features.

While the Mac press pontificates over the iosification of OS X they aren't seeing the end game from a developers perspective. Why wouldn't developer making games on iOS that support Game Center want access to the same on OS X?
 

C.G.B. Spender

macrumors member
Jul 10, 2012
74
0
There is nothing wrong with Mountain Lion.


This thread has devolved into a bitching session about Accessibility. This isn't surprising because the mere attempt at telling someone that one feature is more important than another is self centered and invites a fight.

The more constructive post would have mentioned existing features and then discussed what features are missing and why such features deserved to be in the Operating System.

I guess rest of the Apple world will just use it and won’t bother like this. Including me.
 

50548

Guest
Original poster
Apr 17, 2005
5,039
2
Currently in Switzerland
Talking is easy, doing so is harder. But you, OP, are what we in western culture call a hypocrite. If you don't like it, you don't buy it. If you like it, you buy it...I mean what's the difficulty here?

Don't teeter around on both sides of the fence. Make a statement and stick with it, even if it's as blunt as 'mountain lion is irrelevant, I'm sticking with snow leopard, bye' than a 3000 word post as to how terrible Mountain Lion is, until reading 'oh, but I'll buy it'...literally just no words for that statement.

I was very critical of Lion but I ACTUALLY sent feedback to Apple in the hopes that some of the 'problems' would get fixed (like tons of other people did) - and one of them did, Exposé like windows in MC. I suggest you submit that 'rant' to Apple and if one of their employees reads your everlasting non-constructive post, then they are well and truly blessed with the gift of patience.

No hypocrisy intended, just the fact that I will be paying a single lunch's money to have a slightly better Lion (I am long past SL, fortunately or not) - and NOT because I feel excited about a truly innovative version of OS X.

I know, it may sound a bit nuanced; but the outcome is still perfectly logical. I can criticize something and still buy it because of its marginal value - just like I eat a crappy $20 lunch every now and then at my local cafeteria.

And yes, I have sent Apple various pieces of feedback over many years. :rolleyes:

----------

Although others ignored the rest of his post, I did not. I read every word. In fact, if you read my first response, you'll see that I generally agree that OS X is not moving in the right direction, whatever that may be.

Like the OP, you too miss the point. Accessibility features are vital...period. Even though 99% (a number out of thin air by the way) may not use them, you still benefit from their presence. If those with disabilities were not able to utilize computers, many would be underemployed, unable to use the Internet in their personal lives, etc., thereby increasing the burden on society in the form of taxes, additional public services, and so on.

In reality, "slightly" more, as in exponentially more, people benefit from accessibility features:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2004/feb04/02-02adultuserbenefitspr.aspx

I guess they don't know what they are talking about either.

For the TLDNR crowd:

"Overview
The accessibility market is global and it continues to grow. 57% of adult computer users could benefit from the use of accessible technology.
Research commissioned by Microsoft and conducted by Forrester Research, Inc. shows:
17% were very likely to benefit
40% were likely to benefit
43% were not likely to benefit
Study Results
Over half of your customers may be impacted by this!"

BR...Your witness.

Xav8tor, I am gonna try to "tone it down" a little bit and reiterate, once more, that your reaction is totally out of context for the simple reason that I've never intended to mean "accessibility is irrelevant" in its absolute sense.

Whether you are able to see my intention or not is beside the point - perhaps I expressed myself in harsher terms than necessary to make it clear that ML could have been MUCH more than what it is right now. Or that its "new" accessibility features are, in my view, little more than a few added Braille keyboards and some preference pane tweaks.

Now of course, if YOU are the beneficiary of THAT newly-added Braille keyboard, you'll of course enjoy the added compatibility and love this move by Apple. And this is why I suggested a 0/2 rating (ZERO innovation, LIMITED marginal usefulness to those helped by it). But for someone used to Apple computers since the 80s, I can't help but express my disappointment at the stream of MARGINAL improvements and iOS-driven dumbing down since SL itself and Lion.

Apple could have added SL, Lion AND ML all together, and the overall value still wouldn't, feature-wise, be very high compared to the advancements brought by Tiger and Leopard, for example.

You and others may, of course, disagree (and I appreciate the different interesting opinions here); I just needed to get that sentiment out of my chest as well.
 

Rennir

macrumors 6502
Jan 13, 2012
457
0
Stopped reading after this. Irrelevance to you does in no way shape or form equal irrelevance of Mountain Lion to the rest of the world. This first point, the very first point, clearly demonstrates what your attempt is here.

A change in the thread title would be appropriate to ensure that MacRumors readers realize this thread is about the 'Irrelevance of ML to BRLawyer' before proceeding to waste time reading it.

But accessibility isn't innovative. And exactly what functions of accessibility do you or 90% of OS X users use?
 

xav8tor

macrumors 6502a
Mar 30, 2011
533
36
Xav8tor, I am gonna try to "tone it down" a little bit and reiterate, once more, that your reaction is totally out of context for the simple reason that I've never intended to mean "accessibility is irrelevant" in its absolute sense.

Whether you are able to see my intention or not is beside the point - perhaps I expressed myself in harsher terms than necessary to make it clear that ML could have been MUCH more than what it is right now. Or that its "new" accessibility features are, in my view, little more than a few added Braille keyboards and some preference pane tweaks.

Now of course, if YOU are the beneficiary of THAT newly-added Braille keyboard, you'll of course enjoy the added compatibility and love this move by Apple. And this is why I suggested a 0/2 rating (ZERO innovation, LIMITED marginal usefulness to those helped by it). But for someone used to Apple computers since the 80s, I can't help but express my disappointment at the stream of MARGINAL improvements and iOS-driven dumbing down since SL itself and Lion.

Apple could have added SL, Lion AND ML all together, and the overall value still wouldn't, feature-wise, be very high compared to the advancements brought by Tiger and Leopard, for example.

You and others may, of course, disagree (and I appreciate the different interesting opinions here); I just needed to get that sentiment out of my chest as well.

Fair enough. No qualms whatsoever with your well reasoned reply. And, I wholeheartedly agree on the dumbing down of OS X. Some of your other points were certainly valid too. Wait until tomorrow. I can all but guarantee there will numerous complaints about some other "improvements" they did incorporate.

On the other hand, as I said in the beginning, unofficially supporting the new Nvidia cards alone is worth a lot more than 20 bucks to many Mac Pro users who do 3D, video, or sim work (or gamers for that matter). The 5870 is what, nearly three year old technology now? Those who seem to be in the know have said that the drivers are more likely the unintended byproduct of supporting the Retina MacBook rather than an intentional global update to the OS. I hope they're wrong. If Apple breaks that in an update, I'll keep my iGadgets and AAPL shares, but my Mac Pro will be on eBay the next day!
 
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linuxcooldude

macrumors 68020
Mar 1, 2010
2,480
7,232
Apple could have added SL, Lion AND ML all together, and the overall value still wouldn't, feature-wise, be very high compared to the advancements brought by Tiger and Leopard, for example.

Some people tend to only see whats on the outside without looking bellow the surface. In recent years quite a few important aspects of Mac OSX have come out like AV foundation, Grand Central Dispatch and Opencl.

Some only care about the bling bling, but not what it takes to get there.
 

Icaras

macrumors 603
Mar 18, 2008
6,344
3,394
I think people are taking this upgrade way too seriously considering the following:

1.) It's the cheapest OS X upgrade in the history of Apple

2.) It's released only a year after Lion was.

To put things into perspective, every OS X release before Lion took approximately 2-3 years between releases, with the exception of 10.1 to 10.2 (1 year).

Mountain Lion will be a great, affordable upgrade and a nice stepping stone to what I believe will be a more substantial upgrade come 10.9. That said, I don't agree ML deserves such a negative spin. I definitely look forward to tomorrow.
 

MTD's Mac

macrumors 6502
Mar 18, 2010
324
309
Los Angeles
I think people are taking this upgrade way too seriously considering the following:

1.) It's the cheapest OS X upgrade in the history of Apple

2.) It's released only a year after Lion was.

To put things into perspective, every OS X release before Lion took approximately 2-3 years between releases, with the exception of 10.1 to 10.2 (1 year).

Mountain Lion will be a great, affordable upgrade and a nice stepping stone to what I believe will be a more substantial upgrade come 10.9. That said, I don't agree ML deserves such a negative spin. I definitely look forward to tomorrow.

These are the points that (along with the completely arbitrary rating system and selection of features) make the OP entirely useless and without credibility.

One key issue with judging features as "innovative" or not has to do with whether they're part of the OS, or only available from 3rd party software (which requires researching, paying for, downloading, learning to use, and setting up). I don't expect to use Notifications much, but it's pretty revolutionary in an OS as a comprehensive, built-in tool that does what several OS features and 3rd party apps could sort of do in the past. The OP mentions Growl as a replacement, making Notifications non-innovative. Untrue. I was never going to bother installing Growl, or even learning whether it works well or not. I KNOW Notifications will work well, and handle all my Mac apps.
 

sesnir

macrumors 6502
Sep 21, 2008
368
307
I stopped reading the OP around #20, after it became clear that he not only has never used Mountain Lion, but hasn't even done his research...

And several features that you find annoying are actually extremely useful to me. Being able to view something in QuickLook or Preview and have a button that lets me share it via email saves me time. Easily a 5 on usefulness.

Launchpad search - it's as quick as spotlight, if not quicker... you just do the launchpad gesture and start typing and it will filter the apps list for you. How is this not useful?

Notes - Sticky notes and nothing more? No copy/paste? Wrong on both counts.

Messages - You think this is just iChat? This should have gotten a 5 in both of your categories, as being able to pick up iMessages from my phone, iPad and now my Mac is insanely useful and revolutionary. Sure, we all saw it coming, but they got it into OS X pretty quick after introducing iMessages in iOS.

Now I do agree that there's no stand-out non-app OS feature that's too revolutionary, but this is a $19.99 annual OS X update. If Messages was merely an Apple app on the App Store, I'd pay $20 for that alone... everything else is a bonus.
 

scarred

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2011
516
1

dukebound85

macrumors Core
Jul 17, 2005
19,167
4,165
5045 feet above sea level
I think people are taking this upgrade way too seriously considering the following:

1.) It's the cheapest OS X upgrade in the history of Apple

2.) It's released only a year after Lion was.

To put things into perspective, every OS X release before Lion took approximately 2-3 years between releases, with the exception of 10.1 to 10.2 (1 year).

Mountain Lion will be a great, affordable upgrade and a nice stepping stone to what I believe will be a more substantial upgrade come 10.9. That said, I don't agree ML deserves such a negative spin. I definitely look forward to tomorrow.

I believe tiger and 10.6 were the longest. I hope osx doesn't turn yearly
 

MartyF81

macrumors 6502
Sep 5, 2010
336
266
Chicago IL
It is unfortunate that you think your opinion of the value of the features... matters. It does not. Some of the features you deem as irrelevant, are important to others.

Their business is not to cater to fanatics.
 

rikscha

macrumors 6502a
Mar 8, 2010
806
450
London
Rorschach, I have posted elsewhere my multiple suggestions for areas of "innovative" improvement in OS X.

A quick example above is in Finder. Everyone knows a MAJOR revamp has been necessary for years, yet nothing is done by Apple.

At the very least, they could have bought something like Pathfinder and implemented it as part of the system. And if they had thought a little more ahead, perhaps something even more avant-garde like BumpTop.

Exactly, Apple IS thinking outside the box. The problem here, you are not.

Most of your request are very obvious one's and it really reminds me of MS mentality. I don't think you can really create a big picture of the whole thing. It is quite clear I think that Apple is going through a long transition period with iCloud being the answer to the 20year old Window approach (either win or mac os) in the end.

They will not put effort into improving things along the way they probably know of won't be there in the next couple of years anyway. Finder, explorer, great things back in the 90s. Today? Get rid of the legacy already.
 
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iMacFarlane

macrumors 65816
Apr 5, 2012
1,123
30
Adrift in a sea of possibilities
And ANOTHER reason to be underwhelmed with ML: PowerNap ONLY works with Apple-branded SSDs. So Point 23's rating must be down from 3/2 to 3/1...

That's just flippin' ridiculous. Why wouldn't powernap work on all Apple branded computers?

----------

I think people are taking this upgrade way too seriously considering the following:

1.) It's the cheapest OS X upgrade in the history of Apple

2.) It's released only a year after Lion was.

To put things into perspective, every OS X release before Lion took approximately 2-3 years between releases, with the exception of 10.1 to 10.2 (1 year).

Mountain Lion will be a great, affordable upgrade and a nice stepping stone to what I believe will be a more substantial upgrade come 10.9. That said, I don't agree ML deserves such a negative spin. I definitely look forward to tomorrow.

I hope that Mountain Lion improves on Lion as Windows 7 improved on Windows Vista. Loved Snow Leopard. Lion? Not a fan.
 

ksgant

macrumors 6502a
Jan 12, 2006
797
710
Chicago
There's not much more you can do to innovate on the desktop. Maybe someday, someone with a totally radical idea may come along, but I don't see that happening.

Windows 8 isn't the future, from what I've seen of it so far. And quite frankly, it's no more "innovative" than anything else out there. The problem with all of these systems is that they're mature. Point and click interfaces have been around now for decades. Refined? Sure. Tweeked? Sure. Totally made to stand on it's head? Not on the desktop. The innovative stuff is all happening on the mobile side of things..and even there they're running out of ideas.
 

theanimaster

macrumors 6502
Oct 7, 2005
322
15
Some things I noticed with the original poster's complaints.

ONE - he complains that all these features already existed in one form or the other. True -- but now they're all INTEGRATED nicely into the OS. It spells the difference between having to fire up an app to share something and being able to maybe just right click to share it.

TWO - the old "Blah..blah has run out of ideas." Utter BS. Apple isn't stupid -- they know how to market their stuff. It's the same reason why Apple NEVER seems to put in the same storage capacity in their iPhones as they do their iPod Touches. They have to create some differentiation -- something that will keep the people drooling for more. Or has the OP forgotten that this is, after all, mountain LION and not TABBY CAT? Just as snow LEOPARD was to LEOPARD, I'm sure Apple's next OS will take some bold steps.

THREE - features. Can't comment now as I've still got 18 minutes before my installation is complete (while I'm downloading ML to the other computer...) but I sure as hell hope that they've included the USEFUL features like integration Contacts with Mail so that you can have Mail display nicknames YOU choose rather than weird names that your contacts choose (I live in Thailand and everything is written in Thai script -- I can't read). Or how about the bugs in Launchpad were icons moved around on their own? Or how about the bug in Mail that caused Mission Control to crash? There are plenty others, but I'm expecting them to have been weeded out in ML. Keep in mind Lion is more like a paid beta... hence Apple was "nice" enough to charge us the remaining 19.99 for the complete package.

----------

That's just flippin' ridiculous. Why wouldn't powernap work on all Apple branded computers?


It needs a SSD. If you're running a hard disk while its fetching your mail and writing to your spinning platter-based drive while it's bumpin' up and down in the back seat of your car, then good luck -- you'll need a new drive soon.

What I don't understand or rather, what I DO understand ... is why they limit it to new macs only. Seems there needs to be a firmware update, but I wonder if this can be hacked so that you can enable it in older based macs?

Coz if you put a SSD in one of them older macs... well... there you go.
 
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