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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Adobe sales skyrocketed w/the introduction of the subscription model, but then again, automakers have generated record sales with these ridiculous lease programs, but we'll probably see that bubble burst down the road...
There's hidden costs to both, coincidently, I took the plunge on my first lease earlier this year and while it afforded me a much lower monthly payment, I'm not sold on the idea of leasing yet. I can see this being the first and last lease. I'll wait to see how it shakes out.

Back on the subscription model, I've sucessfully removed a few hundred dollars a month on monthly payments on services and software that I really don't need or found an alternative.

The last two major subscriptions I have is Adobe and Microsoft. For what I get with MS, I think that one makes too much sense to change. Regarding Adobe, I think inertia has kept me from changing but given my usage patterns, I think I'll make a move on this in the coming weeks
 
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sarge

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2003
597
136
Brooklyn
There's hidden costs to both, coincidently, I took the plunge on my first lease earlier this year and while it afforded me a much lower monthly payment, I'm not sold on the idea of leasing yet. I can see this being the first and last lease. I'll wait to see how it shakes out.

Back on the subscription model, I've sucessfully removed a few hundred dollars a month on monthly payments on services and software that I really don't need or found an alternative.

The last two major subscriptions I have is Adobe and Microsoft. For what I get with MS, I think that one makes too much sense to change. Regarding Adobe, I think inertia has kept me from changing but given my usage patterns, I think I'll make a move on this in the coming weeks

Yeah, you're not the only one enticed by low up front costs:

http://wolfstreet.com/2016/10/03/su...urities-turn-toxic-delinquencies-losses-soar/

I predict Adobe are forced to substantially reduce the pricing as participation falls.
 
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Padaung

macrumors 6502
Jan 22, 2007
470
104
UK
In November On1 Software will introduce their Photo RAW package with their own raw converter that is very fast, browser, non destructive editing, plus their advanced editing modules like Effects and Layers. You should look into it if Lr is of little interest. The migration should be easy in that both use referenced file system folders. But of course RAW will not be about to open/use edits made in Lr the same as Lr can not open correctly the edits made in RAW. Each company has their own set of algorithms and logic for editing on top of raw files and creating side cars to record the edits.


That's good to know, and since I'm in no rush, I have the luxury of time. I'll start looking at what's already been written about that, either rumors or blogs by the vendor.

In a similar vein to On1 raw, there is also Exposure X2 which is looking promising too.
http://www.alienskin.com/exposure/

I'm currently a Lr user, but as soon as On1 raw is available as a trial I'll be trying that and the Exposure X2 trial to compare side by side with Lr.

I'm mostly interested in X2 and On1 raw because they both remove the import process. You simply navigate to a folder of images and you can then just choose an image and start editing it no-destructively.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
I'm mostly interested in X2 and On1 raw because they both remove the import process. You simply navigate to a folder of images and you can then just choose an image and start editing it no-destructively.
It appears that X2 is a pure photo editor, where as I'm looking for a product with DAM functionality. C1 has this, though I've seen complaints about how it handles keywords. I was playing with the On1 Photo 10 and it seems to do a lot of what I'm looking for on the management side, but I'm not sure how RAW will work in place of, or in conjunction with Photo 10

I predict Adobe are forced to substantially reduce the pricing as participation falls.
funny, I'm at this point, I'm concerned about Adobe raising its prices, but seeing an uptick in Lightroom competitors, upping their game, I wonder if they smell blood in the water and are looking to get people like me, off of LR and buy their software.
 

sarge

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2003
597
136
Brooklyn
It appears that X2 is a pure photo editor, where as I'm looking for a product with DAM functionality. C1 has this, though I've seen complaints about how it handles keywords. I was playing with the On1 Photo 10 and it seems to do a lot of what I'm looking for on the management side, but I'm not sure how RAW will work in place of, or in conjunction with Photo 10


funny, I'm at this point, I'm concerned about Adobe raising its prices, but seeing an uptick in Lightroom competitors, upping their game, I wonder if they smell blood in the water and are looking to get people like me, off of LR and buy their software.

Yeah the DAM and managing the RAW/DNG file is the most critical part for me and since I already RT in and out of PS for shots I truly wish to wring the most out of in terms of print preparation I don't mind bouncing between other programs as long as there is some reasonable DAM workflow. I just bought C1 but am waiting until I update my 2011 machine (still running 10.6.8) before loading the latest versions of LR and C1 ($250) and doing a head to head comparison in Sierra.
 

organicCPU

macrumors 6502a
Aug 8, 2016
838
295
As we have a free market, it's up to software companies like Adobe to sell their licenses only at a time based subscription model. Considering Adobe, the train for the conventional desktop license with lifetime right to use has left somewhen around 2012 with the Creative Suite 6. Call it monopolism, call it costs you can simple calculate your business plan on, boycot it or pay for it.
The vast majority of users must have accepted the software leasing philosophy. There are more and more companies, especially those with a key solution for their branch, that already switched to the rental model or will switch at some point. As long as there will be people supporting this idea, there is no reason for the big players to rethink. Only if there would have been no acceptance at all from the beginning by customers willing to pay, this development would have taken another direction. That chance was lost about 4 years ago.
What we can do, is to stay on old software with desktop licenses, probably on old hardware. The problem is, that at some point our hardware and OS functionality and/or compatibility will break. So, that solution will have a limited timeframe. For pure backwards compatibility to open our old files we could run a VM with a matured system, but a VM for daily intensive computing and production needs? That is not what one really wants. Maybe in several years.
Another thing what we can do, is to search for recent alternative software with a desktop license that will run on recent hardware and OSs. If we've found a solution that will satisfy our needs, who will guarantee us, that this solution will continue to use a desktop license model? You know, free market, free rules, huge user base that will accept time based software rental. Searching for alternatives might work, but there is a high risk that we'll need to jump from one to another solution to avoid subscription until there are no more solutions. That time will come, if we don't make clear statements. But how?
Is the only way to stop this triumphal procession of SAAS and desktop software subscription to consequently leave commercial products and switch to open source, participate in that projects and elaborate them? As a consequence also switch to hardware and OS with an open architecture?
A long time for me Macs were commercial products that were open enough to fit my expectations. Most talented developers, including the Adobe staff, gave me more or less good working software solutions that didn't want an internet connection every 30 days to continue to work. And the most important thing for me: My own work was always accessible as long as the production system was present, not just as long as I pay someone for whatever. The license to use a software is one thing, but in my opinion the right to access my work is a completely different one.
My conclusion for now is to avoid subscription software models as long as I can stay productive without and as long the software will use proprietary file formats without a serious alternative to open, edit and convert the work that belongs to me. To answer the OP's question: I'm not paying as long as I can. It's not primarily because there is a fee or because of the high price, it's more that I disagree with other aspects of the concept of this infantilizing business model that has serious potential to bury my deliverables at some time.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Well I'm leaning heavily towards C1 as I tried that in the past, and found it pretty good, now with an iMac, the issues I initially had, were mitigated due to the 27" display.

I'm not giving up on On1 and Macphun, but so far from my what I see of On1's current products, the editing component of Photo 10, is destructive, and requires you to edit the master, or generate a copy. I'd rather not have masters and an editted duplicate clogging up my storage.

Macphun is too much of an unknown, but since the release date is just around the corner, its worth the wait.

In November On1 Software will introduce their Photo RAW package

[doublepost=1476964617][/doublepost]Here's a blog regarding ON1's Photo RAW and appears unlike Photo 10 by On1, the editing is non-destructive so in that sense, that's a good thing. I was enjoying Photo 10's speed, since it forgoes the catalog mechanism.

Something definitely to consider
 

MCAsan

macrumors 601
Jul 9, 2012
4,587
442
Atlanta
I am part of the On1 Plus program. So I should be getting the RAW program by first week of November. I will let you know what I think.
 

JackRoch

macrumors member
Jul 12, 2010
84
21
I know I looked at this a couple of times in the past few years, but I forget why I decided to stick with LR over C1
I remember when you were looking at this a few months back (pre-Lightroom adoption?) and felt DAM capability was a high priority.

I’m still at t’other end of the spectrum to you, i.e. using DxO (and its lack of DAM!) – infrequent-but-expensive updates and occasionally wondering whether a subscription model wouldn’t make more sense – much as I dislike the principle of it.

I tried CP1 but never really got to grips with it. I blame me, not the software for that – though it does make me think that one can never really have the time to test alternatives to the point of equal familiarity with one’s current program. Reminds me how, back in the day, I hated the apparently clunky Quark Xpress rather than seemingly intuitive Pagemaker which I’d grown up with from its first iteration (remember the Floppy Disc Shuffle anyone?!).
After being forced to use Xpress due to clients’/printers’ requirements, months later I couldn’t believe how I’d been prepared to prefer Pagemaker’s ease-of-use to the easy precision of Xpress.

In practice I’m happy with DxO’s processing; more than any other features (which frankly seem to me much-of-a-muchness between DxO and other programs) it’s the lens/body based geometry/vignetting corrections I’d be loathe to forego (so satisfying to repeatedly click the ‘compare’ button to see their effect!). I use the µ4/3 system and I vaguely recall that its, and smaller sensor systems, rely more on software correction than corrections in-lens (so to speak) but I’d trust DxO’s testing of lens/body combinations more than my ability to ‘eyeball it’ by sliding sliders to and fro!
Additionally, I really like the ease and effectiveness of DxO’s manual corrections for pincushion/barrel/perspective.

Though I know many like it, I’m less interested in DxO’s HQ/Prime de-noising/sharpening and prefer (recently updated) NeatImage. I’ve always liked the system of printing its standard test chart on your own printer, photographing it at various ISOs which are then fed back into the program, thus creating your own profile incorporating any peculiarities of you own sensor/lens/etc. I use both standalone and plug-in version for PShop.

My Photoshop is CS5.1 (gasp!) still running happily on El Cap 10.11.6. I’ve got Sierra Beta running on an external HD which initially appeared to finally end the functionality of my PShop – until I set it to 32bit and it’s now functional again (huh?!).

Nonetheless, it encouraged me to get Affinity Photo: since I only really use PShop as a host for NeatImage + a few final exposure tweaks/resizing, I figured Affinity would provide that function in future.
Similarly, I bought Affinity Designer for when my Illustrator CS3 refuses to work with a future OS.

I’m impressed with Affinity’s attitude (esp. regarding non-sub model) and attentiveness on their forums. So… I’m hoping that when Affinity produce their DAM, by then I’ll be used to their ecosystem.

So… short version: [Affinity DAM] > DxO > Aff Photo+NeatImage (+ any other plug-ins)

as a final p.s… I'd even looked at Hasselblad's free Phocus – as usual needs an email registration (http://www.hasselblad.com/support/manuals/software-current). It uses Mac OS RAW conversion/built-in support for other brands and, sadly, (from the manual) "In practice this means you should expect the following tools to be inac- tive: Highlight recovery, Shadow ll, Clarity, Lens corrections, Noise reduction and Scene calibration."
I do sometimes wonder, for those who need a bit more than Photos it might be a pretty powerful improvement?
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
I remember when you were looking at this a few months back (pre-Lightroom adoption?) and felt DAM capability was a high priority.
Yup, and I know regret the decision I made. I guess I felt at the time the I was going to get value out of the subscription like I get out of Office, but the updates have been far and few between. Plus some of the updates have been rather buggy.

People who moved from Aperture, gravitated to C1, in part because the workflow, and design seems very similar. I saw some blog that I could actually import my lightroom catalog into C1, I'm not sure if I mis-read that, but I'll be looking to work on that later and if that's the case, I may opt for that.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
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I'm importing my Lightroom catalog into C1 as we speak and I'll see how it handles the process. If this works out decently, I'll be hard pressed to pick anything else, primarily because the transition will be that much easier, smoother and faster.

I'll let the import process go an swing back on my iMac later this afternoon to see the results.
 

mavericks7913

Suspended
May 17, 2014
812
281
Well, you can't blame the price. Do you even know the real price for CS6 Photoshop? It cost more than $1000. Yeah, it is a professional program. $120 per year is a steal. You need at least 10 years to pay for its price. Also, they update programs for several times so it worth more. If you need LR, then get LR6.
 
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JackRoch

macrumors member
Jul 12, 2010
84
21
Looks interesting! Can you compare the output quality to Macphun's Noiseless? NeatImage could be doing better because of camera and scanner profiles.

Noone did so far in this thread and I've forgotten to mention these promising applications in my last post:
- Darktable
- Krita
I only gave MacPhun’s Noiseless a brief trial. (love Tonality though) I found the denoising a little ‘plasticky’. As per my earlier comment regarding trying alternatives, I’m always a bit diffident in recommending software; it may well be that other members more familiar with say Nik/Topaz/etc would say the same about NeatImage!

It seems to me that all these programs are well capable of denoising and sharpening but it’s the ability to do it convincingly without the former being plasticky and the latter producing gritty artefacts.

With NeatImage, should you elect not to use your own profile, the program uses ‘auto-profile’ and draws a small (moveable and resizeable) square on which it thinks is a representative mid-tone. (Presumably in that mode it’s operating like any other denoising program?) When I compare the resultant image with one using my own profile, the latter seems superior to my eye.
BTW it uses exif data to detect ISO and autoselects the appropriate profile. Batch processes too!
I also find its broad range of presets pretty well covers all my needs.

Thanks for the Darktable reminder. Looks a lot more polished than last time I looked (quite a while ago).
[doublepost=1477090625][/doublepost]
Yup, and I know regret the decision I made.
Didn’t mean to sound like I was rubbing your nose in it!!
I was really just trying to to say that at that point, unlike you, I didn’t need DAM but still relied on a bunch of folders (named with time & place) in a folder called ‘Photos’ on an ext. HD. That may soon change as I’ve a couple of projects coming up that’ll involve trawling through years of photos and selecting from said folders. Hence following your post.

I may get away with just adding them to individual ‘projects’ in DxO. If not guess I’ll have to get to grips with libraries.

I do dutifully read MR threads on the topic but quite frankly as soon as I read ‘referenced folders’ my brain goes all tingly.
 
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NY Guitarist

macrumors 68000
Mar 21, 2011
1,585
1,581
Well, you can't blame the price. Do you even know the real price for CS6 Photoshop? It cost more than $1000. Yeah, it is a professional program. $120 per year is a steal. You need at least 10 years to pay for its price. Also, they update programs for several times so it worth more. If you need LR, then get LR6.

I think I paid around $1000 for the entire Creative Suite a few years ago. It's lives on a locked down MP and still going strong.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Didn’t mean to sound like I was rubbing your nose in it!!
No worries, I wasn't offended, you need to have a thick skin to be a moderator at times, so I wasn't bothered by your post :)


Do you even know the real price for CS6 Photoshop? It cost more than $1000
While the later varients did come close to a 1,000 bucks, most people like me spent a fraction of that. I was able to get CS3 on the EDU discount, and was able to get the upgrade pricing for CS5. The basic version of both of those were 650 for CS3 (retail) and half that for the EDU version, and I think 200 for the upgrade for CS5. While I admit that PS + LR offers a good deal at 10 dollars a month, which why I took the plunge, I'm not seeing much value of paying it month over month. Thanks to the advances of LR and various plugins I'm not really using PS. As for LR, yes I could buy the current version out right and not get any updates and knowing fairly certain that LR7 will be subscription based.

Instead, I'm opting for another solution and I have it narrowed down to two. One size doesn't fit all and I think for me, at least right where I am now with my budget, philosophy on computers (no subscriptions) and photography, a perpetual license is a better fit then a subscription
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,003
56,027
Behind the Lens, UK
No worries, I wasn't offended, you need to have a thick skin to be a moderator at times, so I wasn't bothered by your post :)



While the later varients did come close to a 1,000 bucks, most people like me spent a fraction of that. I was able to get CS3 on the EDU discount, and was able to get the upgrade pricing for CS5. The basic version of both of those were 650 for CS3 (retail) and half that for the EDU version, and I think 200 for the upgrade for CS5. While I admit that PS + LR offers a good deal at 10 dollars a month, which why I took the plunge, I'm not seeing much value of paying it month over month. Thanks to the advances of LR and various plugins I'm not really using PS. As for LR, yes I could buy the current version out right and not get any updates and knowing fairly certain that LR7 will be subscription based.

Instead, I'm opting for another solution and I have it narrowed down to two. One size doesn't fit all and I think for me, at least right where I am now with my budget, philosophy on computers (no subscriptions) and photography, a perpetual license is a better fit then a subscription
I think if you use LR & PS every month then it does represent good value.
However as a hobbiest I don't shot every week (even less this last year due to 'life issues'), so I prefer not paying for something I don't always use.
Same goes for
Netflix
Amazon prime
Sky TV (or cable TV)
If you're not using them why pay for them?
(btw I have none of the above)
 

mofunk

macrumors 68020
Aug 26, 2009
2,421
161
Americas
I have a purchased copy of LR and CS4. I would love to get a physical copy of CS Suites but don't like that I have only one option available. With my physical copy of LR, its been a hard battle just to update it. For some reason it times out whenever I try to get a connection to update it. I can only imagine what it would be like if I used the $10 per month service. Yes OP I feel like we are being robbed because you don't even own a copy, just renting. All the pirating put us in a bind.
 

matt9013

macrumors 6502
Oct 27, 2013
333
16
I've been thinking of getting either Photoshop or Lightroom but was wondering which is better. Would Lightroom be all I need? I'd like to buy it outright.
 

MCAsan

macrumors 601
Jul 9, 2012
4,587
442
Atlanta
Those are two very different programs. Lr is designed for photographers and contains cataloging features for holding your images. It also contains a raw converter and does non-destructive editing of raw images.

Photoshop is a general purpose graphics creation and editing tool that can be used for photographers or other types of digital graphic art.

The key.....what are your specific requirements? Don't purchase anything until you define your requirements and compare them to products on the market.

A nod is as good as wink to a blind horse. :)
 

matt9013

macrumors 6502
Oct 27, 2013
333
16
Those are two very different programs. Lr is designed for photographers and contains cataloging features for holding your images. It also contains a raw converter and does non-destructive editing of raw images.

Photoshop is a general purpose graphics creation and editing tool that can be used for photographers or other types of digital graphic art.

The key.....what are your specific requirements? Don't purchase anything until you define your requirements and compare them to products on the market.

A nod is as good as wink to a blind horse. :)
I mostly want a program to edit/fix/change my pictures and turn them into art. Don't need anything for organizing them.
 
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