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However as lots of people think it's okay to torrent software for free, Adobe (and others) have little choice but to find a different option.

It's as easy as ever to torrent adobe software. I think you're quoting a lie that adobe themselves don't even tell but still seems to spread.

I bought CS6 Design Standard as soon as CC was announced. I paid about $350 for a student license (legitimately). So 3 years of paying the $10/month photo plan and I'm already ahead my way. Not to mention that I'd miss having InDesign.

I don't mind paying for software I find useful, but if my only choice is to rent it, I'd rather torrent.
 
That is different from CC though. Adobe doesn't push versions on users the way Facebook or Google does. People subscribing to CC can use CS6, CC or CC2014 and updates aren't automatic.
No, but that's the next logical step: most people I know don't upgrade regularly, because they don't want to pay for each and every version. With a subscription that advantage goes away. Chrome works that way (unless you opt out), for instance, and App Store apps also update automatically. It's just a matter of getting used to.
 
No, but that's the next logical step: most people I know don't upgrade regularly, because they don't want to pay for each and every version. With a subscription that advantage goes away. Chrome works that way (unless you opt out), for instance, and App Store apps also update automatically. It's just a matter of getting used to.
Why do they want to upgrade every year?
They sure must drop cameras a lot :D
 
Adobe subscription question.

I disagree, it mostly has to do with the fact that software prices have declined a lot: I paid €200 for my Aperture 2.0 license, enough to cover a two-year CC subscription -- and I'm a hobbyist (meaning I make no money from photography). My gf paid ~$1000 for her student edition of CS4 (not sure which edition) -- which is about two-and-a-half years worth of a subscription at full price. You're right that if you think of it as a business expense, it is much easier to justify it as a professional -- especially given the shift in the thinking of what is and isn't expensive for a software license.

Well i paid around 80 euros for LR4 two years ago (and got lr5 upgrade for free). The individual plan from Apple is 16 euros monthly. If i now buy LR5 its price is 130euros (and the subscription is 192 euros (16e/month)). me being a hobbyist too, i can do all my photoediting with LR. i dont need PS. if you need PS for photoediting, then that plan is for you. for me it would be only paying extra.. and if i need to do some image manipulating that i cannot do with LR, i can always use GIMP which is a free software.

There are plenty of reasons to upgrade: Maybe the new version of OS X that came with your new computer won't work with Lightroom anymore

how many times is this happened that your software wont work with new os?

Maybe your camera gets stolen and you have to replace it. Or it gets splashed by a wave and the salt water fries your electronics (this is how I killed my D80). It's quite easy to come up with a number of reasons why you need to/want to upgrade.


you dont need an upgrade for that. if that happens that the version of LR you have doesnt support a new camera and you know that it wont get an update either, you can always use adobe dng converter. it is free and always up-to-date.
 
Why do they want to upgrade every year?
It's pretty obvious: To get the newest features and bug fixes.
how many times is this happened that your software wont work with new os?
A few, but the problem was that I was updating »too quickly« for the most part, e. g. Cisco's VPN client (they always seem surprised when Apple releases a new OS or my hardware monitor calibration utility. With one exception (where I need to use an older version for compatibility's sake) I always keep all of my software up to date.
you dont need an upgrade for that. if that happens that the version of LR you have doesnt support a new camera and you know that it wont get an update, either you can always use adobe dng converter. it is free and always up-to-date.
Or I can open the images with Preview and make a quick conversion to .tif. I'm sure if you're creative enough you can find other ways. But that's not how Lightroom is supposed to work, and adds an extra step to the workflow. Again, you can turn it any way you'd like, if you choose Lightroom to be your DAM software of choice, you'll eventually pay for a subscription, it's as simple as that. All we are arguing about is how long you can postpone it. And if you're fundamentally opposed to paying for a software subscription, you should switch away from Lightroom (or not switch to it if you're not using it already).
 
No, but that's the next logical step: most people I know don't upgrade regularly, because they don't want to pay for each and every version. With a subscription that advantage goes away. Chrome works that way (unless you opt out), for instance, and App Store apps also update automatically. It's just a matter of getting used to.

I can think of few things worse than Adobe force-updating the software of all of its users. That would be suicide for them. Adobe has already stated that they will keep at least 5 old versions of their products available to CC subscribers starting with CS6. So, in a few years, CC subscribers will have access to CS6, CC2013, CC2014, CC2015, CC2016 and CC2017.

I've never had an App Store app auto update on me. Maybe that's a feature someone can turn on but autoupdates are akin to playing russian roulette as you never know what an update my break (either in the program itself or in drivers, plugins, etc., that the program uses).
 
I can think of few things worse than Adobe force-updating the software of all of its users. That would be suicide for them. Adobe has already stated that they will keep at least 5 old versions of their products available to CC subscribers starting with CS6. So, in a few years, CC subscribers will have access to CS6, CC2013, CC2014, CC2015, CC2016 and CC2017.
These policies are always subject to change, and this change has to happen slowly. If you're a cynic, picture a frog being boiled by slowly raising the temperature of the water. There is no advantage for Adobe in supporting old versions, it just takes away engineering resources they could use to improve their latest version. It's clear where the train is headed, and Adobe is betting its company on this. That much is obvious.
I've never had an App Store app auto update on me. Maybe that's a feature someone can turn on but autoupdates are akin to playing russian roulette as you never know what an update my break (either in the program itself or in drivers, plugins, etc., that the program uses).
I don't know whether auto updating apps is on by default, but Apple has recently issued its first automatic security update. And I haven't had a single issue with autoupdates.
 
Adobe subscription question.

All we are arguing about is how long you can postpone it. And if you're fundamentally opposed to paying for a software subscription, you should switch away from Lightroom (or not switch to it if you're not using it already).


i dont worry things that may happen on someday. and what happens on someday doesnt affect me or a software im using now.

actually we are arquing should you buy a standalone or a subscription.

im saying a standalone because you save money:
if i now buy LR5 (130 euros), i can go with it for few years without upgrades.
1 year (i have already saved 49 euros)
2 years (saved 228 euros, if you still pay the same sum monthly)
3 years (saved 407 euros, if it is still the same sum)

if you use lr+ps or other combo and you do a business then the situation is differend...
 
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These policies are always subject to change, and this change has to happen slowly. If you're a cynic, picture a frog being boiled by slowly raising the temperature of the water. There is no advantage for Adobe in supporting old versions, it just takes away engineering resources they could use to improve their latest version. It's clear where the train is headed, and Adobe is betting its company on this. That much is obvious.

Adobe isn't supporting old versions, they are just keeping them available for download. Subscription and forced updating (which is more of a Cloud computing thing) don't go hand in hand. Lightworks, Smoke, Avid Media Composer, etc., all offer subscription plans but none of them force updates on users. It would be suicide as there's no way for the software company to know what repercussions the update would have on the user.

Google, for example, can do it with Gmail because everything that happens with Gmail happens on Google's end. The user is basically using a dummy terminal via the Cloud to connect to Google's computers.

I don't know whether auto updating apps is on by default, but Apple has recently issued its first automatic security update. And I haven't had a single issue with autoupdates.

The auto security update is a separate checkbox. If you update all your software on day one and have never had a problem with anything that's awesome (and lucky). I'm much less adventuresome. For example, the most recent version of OS I'm running is 10.8.5. The latest versions of my programs, drivers, plugins, etc., I use to make a living work fine with it so I have no compelling reason to upgrade.
 
actually we are arquing should you buy a standalone or a subscription.
No, that's not what I'm arguing at all! I'm saying that Adobe has decided to switch its business model from old school licenses to a subscription service, and that people have to deal with this reality. I'm not claiming one business model is better for the user than the other. And the fact that I always stick to the latest version with the software I use is independent of whether it's a traditional license or a subscription service.
 
No, that's not what I'm arguing at all! I'm saying that Adobe has decided to switch its business model from old school licenses to a subscription service, and that people have to deal with this reality.

you say that it is inevitable on someday. but the day is not today.

And the fact that I always stick to the latest version with the software I use is independent of whether it's a traditional license or a subscription service.


well, if you always buy the latest version, then the plan is good for you.
 
Adobe isn't supporting old versions, they are just keeping them available for download. Subscription and forced updating (which is more of a Cloud computing thing) don't go hand in hand. Lightworks, Smoke, Avid Media Composer, etc., all offer subscription plans but none of them force updates on users. It would be suicide as there's no way for the software company to know what repercussions the update would have on the user.
There are clear hints on how to avoid large-scale disasters, e. g. public beta programs and slow roll outs (where only a small minority of users are initially updated). The fact that you separate software and the cloud makes me thing that you haven't noticed where Adobe is going: there is a cloud component to their software ecosystem (e. g. my gf has a portfolio on the Adobe cloud or Lightroom syncs via the cloud with the iPad). Many pieces of software not only tightly integrate with the cloud, but the cloud becomes an indispensable part of the software itself.
Google, for example, can do it with Gmail because everything that happens with Gmail happens on Google's end. The user is basically using a dummy terminal via the Cloud to connect to Google's computers.
Painless updates are a reality on iOS, and in part they are a reality with OS X (with a few more caveats, of course). It's not a question of »if« but »when«.
The auto security update is a separate checkbox.
On 10.10 security updates are installed automatically by default. It's a matter of time when all updates are applied by default, although that may still be a few years off. Apple transitions slowly and deliberately.
If you update all your software on day one and have never had a problem with anything that's awesome (and lucky). I'm much less adventuresome. For example, the most recent version of OS I'm running is 10.8.5. The latest versions of my programs, drivers, plugins, etc., I use to make a living work fine with it so I have no compelling reason to upgrade.
It has nothing to do with being adventuresome, the most recent OS X upgrades gave me tangible benefits: 10.9 gave my machine extra battery life, I can now work through a transatlantic flight on a single charge. 10.10 has Continuity which I use all the time when writing text messages and taking phone calls. Whether this is reason for you to upgrade, I don't know.
well, if you always buy the latest version, then the plan is good for you.
I have no intention to get an Adobe subscription, although I do pay for Backblaze and Crashplan.
 
There are clear hints on how to avoid large-scale disasters, e. g. public beta programs and slow roll outs (where only a small minority of users are initially updated). The fact that you separate software and the cloud makes me thing that you haven't noticed where Adobe is going: there is a cloud component to their software ecosystem (e. g. my gf has a portfolio on the Adobe cloud or Lightroom syncs via the cloud with the iPad). Many pieces of software not only tightly integrate with the cloud, but the cloud becomes an indispensable part of the software itself.

Of course there is a Cloud component to the desktop software and one of my main complaints about CC is actually the LACK of really compelling Cloud services being offered. Things like the auto saving of project files to the Cloud and profile synching are nifty but not really show stopping. The Cloud storage and synching of files is kinda a dime a dozen these days and Behance isn't exactly a household name.

I'd love to see something like distributed computing helping on big renders or access to a quality (and growing) library of stock footage, photos, effects seamlessly from inside Adobe's apps (I'm hoping Adobe's recent purchase of a stock footage company is a step in this direction). MediaSilo and Adobe have announced an interesting partnership, but you have to pay for a MediaSilo subscription too so it's not part of CC.

Does this desire for more Cloud services mean, for example, that I want PPro as a Cloud app like Google Docs? No, certainly not, but I do want to have Cloud services from Adobe that enhance the abilities of the PPro that's running on my local computer.

Painless updates are a reality on iOS, and in part they are a reality with OS X (with a few more caveats, of course). It's not a question of »if« but »when«.

Really? Wasn't iOS 8 kinda buggy, so they released 8.0.1 but that was even worse, so they pulled 8.0.1 and got 8.0.2 out the door ASAP? And users running Resolve on new Mac Pros are still having show stopping GPU issues (users running Resolve on Windows via boot camp on the same machines are reporting no such GPU issues). At least Apple managed to fix the 10.9.x issue that caused Adobe apps to malfunction if they were set to use the GPU.

My favorite is probably from a number of years ago when an update to iTunes prevented users from exporting from After Effects (it was a DRM update and made QT think that AE users were trying to create illegal movie files). With all the permutations of hardware and software it's impossible for a company to say with 100% certainty than an update won't cause any problems so I don't care how kinda better it's gotten, users should always have to the power to control when (if at all) updates are applied to their computers and devices.

On 10.10 security updates are installed automatically by default. It's a matter of time when all updates are applied by default, although that may still be a few years off. Apple transitions slowly and deliberately.

Right, like I said, it's a separate check box. The user still has option to uncheck the box and manually control updates. With Google Docs, for example, there user has no option. Google usually tries to transition slowly (many times giving people time to stick with the old version for a bit before until it disappears forever) but the user has no control over changes to the software.
 
Guys I work in the software industry. It is about getting you locked in and maintaining a revenue stream nothing more.

The subscription model is genius because now all those folks who wanted to use PS but couldn't afford to, can now do it and once you try it, you are hooked. It will be like petrol prices. It will creep up over time and one day you will realise how expensive it is but you will have no choice but to continue.

This service based consumption model is the model du jour. It will evolve. The bit that worries me about it is that once locked in, I am then tied to their destiny. If they get bored and move on - they are exploring new markets and may one day turn off this service. Then what?

Don't start with the "this is a major line of business" it isn't that big. In banking terms it is the retail bank I.e. pays its way but doesnt grow the bank. It is there to get a stream of cash but the big bucks are made elsewhere.

Ultimately I like LR and PS. I run CS4 PS and LR5.7 they work for me today PS is so vast, as an amateur I cannot use all the features yet. When they no longer work for me, I will likely subscribe.
 
I especially like the integration between the iPad and desktop versions of Lightroom over the cloud. It means I can make quick visualisations when I am travelling and then when I get back to my computer I can continue the work. That feature is worth much more than $10 a month on it's own.
 
Of course there is a Cloud component to the desktop software and one of my main complaints about CC is actually the LACK of really compelling Cloud services being offered.
I think you have misread my post as some sort of Adobe ad. I was just claiming that the company as a whole is moving (like most of the software industry) to a software + cloud + service model, and as such a subscription model seems more apt to cover recurring expenses -- just like I pay for Backblaze via a subscription, because they provide a service. So if you move your software company towards integration with the cloud (and I'm not claiming that Adobe's offerings are compelling at the moment), it also makes sense to have more recurring revenue.
Really? Wasn't iOS 8 kinda buggy, so they released 8.0.1 but that was even worse, so they pulled 8.0.1 and got 8.0.2 out the door ASAP?
The only problem I've had with iOS 8 was that it took me a while to set up Continuity, it was more complicated than it should have been. But I've read the stories, although I don't know how wide-spread the problems are.
... users should always have to the power to control when (if at all) updates are applied to their computers and devices.
It's a question of defaults: what is the default behavior, is it to update silently in the background or not. Power users can (and should) always choose, but I choosing the defaults changes our expectations. I no longer have to hit update manually, and for me (and I consider myself a very experienced user) it's a blessing.
With Google Docs, for example, there user has no option. Google usually tries to transition slowly (many times giving people time to stick with the old version for a bit before until it disappears forever) but the user has no control over changes to the software.
People who grow up with Google Docs and automatically updating apps on smartphones and tablets are growing up with different expectations. I got my first computer over 25 years ago (god, I'm old!), so I understand what the save icon in Word is supposed to symbolize. With Chromebooks you don't even have a choice, you are getting the latest version of the OS, period. And also on the desktop we are slowly moving in this direction, too. You can already tell that OS X users update more readily to the latest OS which allows developers to take advantage of new APIs. Since cross platform software such as Adobe's apps are much less reliant on OS-specific APIs, you don't feel that as much, but especially if you use indy software you see that many of them require at least 10.9 these days.
 
The kids who are growing up today with the new technologies are going to laugh when they learn what we went through with big upgrades and waiting very long for bug fixes. It's people who cling to the past who will always be angry. We are going through a transition and that is never painless.
 
I think you have misread my post as some sort of Adobe ad.
I was just trying to illustrate (and I might have gone overboard) that I'm aware of Adobe's offerings and I want more of them.


It's a question of defaults: what is the default behavior, is it to update silently in the background or not. Power users can (and should) always choose, but I choosing the defaults changes our expectations.
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With Chromebooks you don't even have a choice, you are getting the latest version of the OS, period.

Which is why I said it would be suicide for Adobe to adapt a forced-update approach like Google Docs because Adobe's user base is almost all power users. I can only imagine the outrage if someone is working on a project in, say, Photoshop Monday and then comes back on Tuesday and a filter or tool they were using is suddenly gone or the app is now buggy because Adobe rolled out a forced-update in the middle of the night.


The kids who are growing up today with the new technologies are going to laugh when they learn what we went through with big upgrades and waiting very long for bug fixes. It's people who cling to the past who will always be angry. We are going through a transition and that is never painless.

Why do you say that? Unless software becomes perfect users of Cloud services are still going to experience bugs and upgrade pains, they just won't have the choice to hold off on upgrading until the bugs get worked out. Look at when Vimeo did a big upgrade a few years ago. It was a mess and there was nothing users could do about it but suffer through it. Same thing when MediaSilo did a big upgrade a year or two ago. One day it was all fine and the next day when we logged on they'd rolled out the upgrade and it sucked. There were some cool new features but there were also a lot of bugs and some features we liked were gone (only to be brought back months later). If we had a choice in the matter there's not a snowball's chance in hell we would have upgraded until the bugs were fixed and the features we used restored.
 
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Which is why I said it would be suicide for Adobe to adapt a forced-update approach like Google Docs because Adobe's user base is almost all power users.
Even for »power users«* (whatever that means), this will change, and the only difference is the rate of change. So while I agree, it's suicide now, in 10 years the discussion is very different.

* The term irks me, because usually it's used to make a »doesn't work for me/satisfy my needs/doesn't work the way I work« argument.
Why do you say that? Unless software becomes perfect users of Cloud services are still going to experience bugs and upgrade pains, they just won't have the choice to hold off on upgrading until the bugs get worked out.
The claim is based on how software development works these days (inspired by agile development), and the philosophy is different. You can tell already by the frequency of releases: for a long time, Adobe released a new version of, say, Photoshop every other year, now you get one every year. That's not just to »make more money«, it's due to advances in software development. Ditto for Lightroom which was on a yearly schedule (with the exception of v3), and you can see that Adobe has continually released updates in the form of point releases. Some of them contained significant new features. Put another way, the distinction between major (point) releases and updates blurs more and more up to the point where it's hard to figure out. With any big change you will anger people, there is a significant number of users who resist changes if they have to relearn things (ask people who had to use the ribbon for the first time or look at the kerfuffle around Final Cut Pro X). Also here you have advantages with the update often method where you make changes more incremental (I again appeal to the boiling the frog analogy).
 
Sorry for the long response time, got really busy at work.

Even for »power users«* (whatever that means), this will change, and the only difference is the rate of change. So while I agree, it's suicide now, in 10 years the discussion is very different.

Power user was your term, not mine and I agree that 10 years from now is a very long way off when it comes to tech.


The claim is based on how software development works these days (inspired by agile development), and the philosophy is different. You can tell already by the frequency of releases: for a long time, Adobe released a new version of, say, Photoshop every other year, now you get one every year. That's not just to »make more money«, it's due to advances in software development.

I don't see how incremental updates inherently go hand in hand with cloud computing services though. Maybe Cloud Service X upgrades their software faster than Desktop Application Z, maybe they don't.

Adobe can release quicker updates and still offer software that runs locally on a user's machine. Going the subscription route is what made this possible because it gets around unintended consequences of the Sarbanes Oxley Act (aka SOX Act). Basically, a publicly traded company (like Adobe), can't sell a product for $100, claim $100 in revenue earned, and then give a free feature update to that product. That's seen as selling an incomplete but still claiming full value for it.
So the options are:
1. Sell it for $100, claim $100 in revenue, and not give away feature upgrades for free.

2. Sell it for $100, claim a percentage of the $100 as revenue immediately, release a feature upgrade and then claim the remaining revenue percentage at that time (the percentage left unclaimed and the additional features have to be proportional)

3. Don't sell a product at all but sell a subscription to a service (which aren't covered by the same rules).

Option three is what many companies are doing now, including Adobe. Avid, Lightworks and AutoDesk all offer subscriptions that give users access to updates that buyers of a traditional perpetual license do not receive.
 
I agree with Apple Fanboy. I just buy the software upright for the following reasons:

If you have the software in the laptop or desktop, you can work in remote locations where an Internet connection is not available, or just any time your ISP experiences a malfunction. Besides that, you still can use the same software version for several years. There are photographers still using CS3.

What I did was to buy CS5 Extended (Teacher/student version) for $199.00. Then when CS6 was released I called Adobe to ask for an upgrade from CS5 Extended to CS6 Extended and was told that there was none for it, other than to pay the monthly fee to use the complete software bundle. But since I sometimes work at remote locations where there is no Internet, I refused and asked for a supervisor to talk to.

To make the story short, I was offered the non-Extended version of CS6 for $199.00, and that's what I use.
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I do the same with cellphones. I buy them upfront, and ask for the service I want. Cellphones become almost obsolete from three to four years later, at which time I buy two more, one for my wife and the other for me. The monthly bill for the service is quite small, and I am not tied to a contract.
 
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If you have the software in the laptop or desktop, you can work in remote locations where an Internet connection is not available, or just any time your ISP experiences a malfunction.

FWIW the software tries to ping Adobe's servers every 30 days but can go as long as 99 days without making contact. If you are going to be someplace that just flat out has no Internet Adobe says you can call them and possible setup a special arrangement.
 
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