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Scottsdale

Suspended
Original poster
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
It's a bit disappointing that this kind of troubleshooting has to be done by a consumer instead of Apple, but hey everyone needs a hobby.

If Scottsdale is happy to do this then more power to him!

Thanks for your non-criticism. Seems like people want to call me stupid for not wanting to look at lines eight plus hours per day, and trying to fix this myself. SICK OF CRITICISM. If you don't care about the lines, or you don't have an MBA, that's your business. I am trying to share with others what my findings are, because I care about my favorite Mac of all time.

I don't get why others want to jump on and criticize if they don't care or don't see them in the first place. This thread is for those who want to share their ideas about what could be causing the lines, or for those who want to read my findings about what I have tried to fix the issue. It's NOT for anyone who wants to call me stupid for caring about the Mac I use.
 

Scottsdale

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Original poster
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
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Makes me wonder just how much or how little experience you have with Apple. It's precisely because Apple did ignore all the returns, exchanges and complaints that the issue persists in the latest revision. Indeed, Apple is notorious for ignoring people, especially when it comes to a perceived shortcoming in one of their perfect products.

I guess I just don't understand why you're attacking Scottsdale. He's trying to discover and provide a solution that Apple was unwilling to provide, for a problem that is bothering a lot of users. I don't know if it's 5% or 0.5% but it doesn't matter. He's investing his own time and money to fix a problem that bothers him, and he's willing to share any positive results with anyone else who may be interested. What's wrong with that?

Are you really sick and tired of his OCD, or is it your own that might be bothering you? Sucks to keep getting reminded of an issue you'd rather rationalize away with "solutions" that aren't solutions. If that's so, why not just ignore Scottsdale's posts? Easy enough to do.

Personally, I'm thankful for the work Scottsdale is putting into this---and I don't even own an Air anymore. I would if it weren't that Apple does so blatantly ignore people.

Thanks for your support.

I really don't get why other people care so much??? I guess they're just Apple fanboys that don't want to admit that Apple would sell crappy displays in the MBAs, or that they cannot see the lines in their displays.

I had a rev B without lines (9C9A), and I know it was hard for me to understand the line issues until I finally saw an affected MBA. Once I did, I understood exactly why that would ruin other MBA owners experiences. I wish Apple would have fixed this with the new MBA, but they didn't.

Lastly, I want to say that I personally could never see attacking someone just because I didn't believe in what they were trying to understand or fix.

All I am doing is trying to figure this out, and I am sharing while doing it.

I am just about to the point of erasing everything posted here and asking others to PM me to find out results. It's ashame that people have to be so disrespectful.

Lastly, I don't have OCD, but I do have a little free time, and I want to learn what is causing this. It's somewhat fun for me, and sharing has only brought me a headache, which is really sad.

It is SAD because a few people can ruin the information forum for all of us. I can take criticism, but I don't appreciate the criticism when my sharing and time is for the benefit of all who are not buying the MBA because of the lines or those who have an MBA with lines and want to know why or fix it.

Thanks to all for support.
 

Veinticinco

macrumors 65816
Feb 25, 2009
1,483
1,560
Europe
Scottsdale, don't let the cranks and misanthropes get you down - many of us here are greatly appreciative of your resolve and dedication to this experiment.

Ideal scenario is you can actually elucidate the cause of the problem, it gets picked up here at MR, *bang* the front page (like the SATA-throttling of the MBPs) and all of a sudden, suitably embarrassed, someone at Cupertino takes a deep breath and begins to write an internal email....

Here's hoping anyway!
 

Gruber

macrumors regular
Jun 15, 2009
108
19
Seems like people want to call me stupid for not wanting to look at lines eight plus hours per day, and trying to fix this myself. SICK OF CRITICISM. If you don't care about the lines, or you don't have an MBA, that's your business. I am trying to share with others what my findings are, because I care about my favorite Mac of all time.

*Hug*

I agree completely. You love that thing enough and yet are bothered enough to go through 3 returns... Just ignore the "you-are-stupid-to-care-ask-Apple-or-buy-a-different-notebook-instead" guy. He has pretty much disqualified himself with his comment. "Anal", my foot.
 

hodgeheg

macrumors regular
Dec 7, 2008
156
0
I owned a Rev B 1.6GHz HDD model bought from the Birmingham Bull Ring store 3rd January 2009. It had faint lines, that were ignorable from most angles most of the time, but were definitely there. A friend who makes hardware suggested it might be to do with tolerances of the pulse driver for the LCD, whatever that is. I have no idea how one could test this, but if it is to do with tolerances of power flow or regulation this would seem to make a certain amount of sense (to this layman) in terms of explaining why they do not seem equally permanent on some machines than others, and seem to vary on the same machine. As for the fact that changing the angle can sometimes make them better or worse, again this doesn't dispute that - after all, LCDs do change colours from different angles slightly, and if they do that enough that the contrast between what I perceived as light grey lines and whiter background is reduced sufficiently then they may appear to 'go away'. This is not a 'solution' but a workaround, but anything that reduces contrast may make some difference: the lines were rendered completely invisible by a matte screen protector that I bought with the laptop that the store fitted. Unfortunately it left the whites not quite white and a slight sparkly effect, so I removed it. This was when I noticed the lines.

The same laptop then had to have its screen replaced due to a dent, and they said the only way to replace the bezel was to replace the entire top unit. £342 later, I had a new screen with very obvious lines that I couldn't avoid/ignore. Again, I put a screen cover on it, which rendered them invisible. I posted about this at the time. However, I missed the contrast of the native screen, the 'pop' of the colours, so took it back off again. The screen protector may suit some people though.

I no longer have the laptop, due to lines and various other problems with the machine and service received.

The main problem I perceive is frankly that the Apple Stores absolutely deny the existence of the lines, in my experience. It seems extremely unlikely that Apple would be unable to find a solution if they admitted it, but since they won't admit it, we are left scratching around for information. I may well be coming across as a "crank and misanthrope" myself - if so this is due to the service I received from Apple more than the issue itself, which I was prepared to live with - but I hope not - your efforts are for the good of everyone. It just shouldn't be your job! Frankly Apple should be paying you Scottsdale, and we should all be grateful, whether we have an Air or not, or lines or not. It seems you are likely to be met by blank stares and denials from Apple and abuse/disbelief from certain quarters. I wish you the absolute best of luck with your efforts! And for what it's worth - THANK YOU - and I would still be saying that if I were lucky enough to have an Air with no lines or with minimal lines.
 

iMacmatician

macrumors 601
Jul 20, 2008
4,249
55
Personally, I'm thankful for the work Scottsdale is putting into this---and I don't even own an Air anymore.
I completely agree. I hope that this thread helps in finding some sort of solution.

MBA(s) you own/owned:3
Display(s) own/owned:3
How you rate lines on your own MBA(s):None

What is your proposed potential cause of the lines?
Not enough power to screens.


What is your proposed potential solution to the lines?
Force or divert more power to screens.


What ways can you think of to test your cause/solution?
In a sense I have tested it on my iMac G3 and a compaq monitor.
I have never seen lines on any MacBook Air (but I have not looked closely), and I haven't been following the lines discussions closely. However, this post reminds me of something. My old CRT monitor (the PC it was on was from 1994 or 1995 but the monitor was 5 years or so newer) exhibited this "lines" problem. When I set it to 800x600 (or 640x480), I saw no lines at all. But when I set it to 1024x768, I saw very strong horizontal lines on the display. So strong that I switched back to 800x600.

The lines match the descriptions made by posts #1, #3, #10, and #21 in this thread (except I'm not sure if they are not tilted). Moving my head didn't solve the problem. Another old monitor and PC I had might have exhibited a lesser problem also with 1024x768.
 

xpovos

macrumors 6502a
Jun 7, 2007
512
0
Tennessee
All I am doing is trying to figure this out, and I am sharing while doing it.

I am just about to the point of erasing everything posted here and asking others to PM me to find out results. It's ashame that people have to be so disrespectful.

Man, don't do that. Lots of folks here appreciate what you're trying to do. Don't let one fanboy in denial dampen your resolve. You're willing to do what I wish I had the time and money to do myself, and we're all going to benefit from your efforts. It's the very essence of the old sense of "community" we Mac users had back in the day. Just don't let this guy get you down. You can see from these posts that a lot of folks support you.
 

pceew

macrumors newbie
Jun 18, 2009
4
0
Keep going Scottsdale:

in Cambridge UK Apple Store:

model : rev C 1.86
display : 9C90
line : none
 

calsci

macrumors 6502
Nov 27, 2008
288
1
scottsdale don't stop because a few posters are being immature. you are doing something that will help alot of people even if they never notice it.
 

King t.

macrumors regular
Oct 31, 2007
195
0
I have the REV:C as well and I don't have any lines, but unfortunately my colors aren't that pretty if i compare it to my MBA REV:A panel: 9C73 :(

My REV:C model:
2,13ghz
Panel: 9c90
128GB SSD
 

PimpIntInxs

macrumors member
Jun 10, 2009
43
0
another thing... i'm on an old dell monitor connected to a Sony vaio laptop that I broke the screen on hence I got the AIR... but i've been using this setup here and there and there are

DEFINITELY LINES ON THIS SCREEN SOOO much more apparent then on the AIR... maybe its a 9c90 also? JUST KIDDING! just thought id throw that out there!
 

Stormygirl

macrumors newbie
Jun 18, 2009
4
0
My first post

As a "lurker" who has read this forum for many months, I am finally spurred to write to say how great Scottsdale's posts are and to say how lucky we are to have such a knowledgeable and steady person share so much of his valuable experience with us. Go Scottsdale, keep writing, and don't let the criticism get you down. There are lots of us out here who value you immensely.
 

Scottsdale

Suspended
Original poster
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
Thanks to all for the encouragement.

Okay, here's the deal. I think there may be a real reason the lines are there that I can identify. However, I obviously need to duplicate this on a second MBA otherwise my whole idea and experiment could be a fluke...

I am going to work on this with a friend on Saturday, and I will post some results when finished.
 

MacLover4491

macrumors member
Apr 22, 2009
98
0
if its an easy fix, apple would have done it already. They cant fix it because of the cheap hardware that they use.
 

Scottsdale

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Original poster
Sep 19, 2008
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283
U.S.A.
if its an easy fix, apple would have done it already. They cant fix it because of the cheap hardware that they use.

If my hypothesis is correct, no it's not an "easy" fix nor one Apple would even consider. Hence, why we are still looking at lines.

Hey, can anyone help me out with this. What was the battery life given by Apple for both the previous MBAs?
 

aleksandra.

macrumors 6502a
Sep 13, 2008
674
0
Warsaw, Poland
If my hypothesis is correct, no it's not an "easy" fix nor one Apple would even consider. Hence, why we are still looking at lines.

Hey, can anyone help me out with this. What was the battery life given by Apple for both the previous MBAs?

Is it a fix that a person owning a MacBook Air would consider, then?

It was 5 hours for revision A, 4:30 for revision B and 5 for revision C. I don't think Apple made different predictions for HDD and SSD versions, but I think they mentioned that SSD improves battery life.
 

Veinticinco

macrumors 65816
Feb 25, 2009
1,483
1,560
Europe
If my hypothesis is correct, no it's not an "easy" fix nor one Apple would even consider. Hence, why we are still looking at lines.

Hey, can anyone help me out with this. What was the battery life given by Apple for both the previous MBAs?

So definitely a juice feed rate thing then? Interesting.
 

Veinticinco

macrumors 65816
Feb 25, 2009
1,483
1,560
Europe
If so, then manipulating the battery settings should work, no?
I don't know as I'm not the one doing the experimenting ;)

But given Scottsdale has said, if his suspicions are correct, it's NOT an easy fix by Apple (which we kind of assume anyway given they've NOT fixed it already), then I'd say your hopes are going to be dashed.

Also that the issue is present regardless of whether battery power or AC is driving the MBA, kind of rules that out as well.

Best case scenario? I just hope it's an inherent hardware problem for which a potential firmware fix can be designed to address. Although again, that leads me to think why haven't they fixed it already.

Worst case? Something weirdly and ordinarily insignificantly specific to latter model rev.Bs and all rev.Cs (such as a safety/reliability tweak in the design of the power-to-display circuitry) that means any display it utilises causes this issue. And changing back to the old 9C8Fs and 9C9As won't make the slightest bit of difference.
 

Stormygirl

macrumors newbie
Jun 18, 2009
4
0
Please, a picture of these *!!#@! lines. . .

I would so much appreciate if someone (Scottsdale?) would post a good pic of these confounded lines, or a URL to a pic somewhere else. A previous poster in this forum said we could find a pic by searching this forum for "grey lines," which I have done both here and on the Internet in general -- and nowhere have I been able to find a good pic. :confused:The only ones I have found are of another machine (not an mba) and the pic on this thread of a TV equivalent of the mba lines. I am planning on buying an Air next week after the iPhone frenzy dies down. The Apple store manager has agreed to sit down with me when I buy it and let me inspect the machine for these lines. He is willing to go through several machines til I find one without lines. But I need to know exactly what I'm looking for. The display model at the Apple store in Corte Madera, CA does not appear (to me) to have lines. Thanks to you all so much for your help.
 

McGilli

macrumors 6502
Nov 11, 2008
380
0
There have been so many threads about the lines in the last 8 months - but I remember at one point in like January - a few people said that Apple had asked them to send their MBA's to the Engineering team for investigation : Does anyone remember if anything came of that?

Or was everything deemed 'in spec'?
 

quisguous

macrumors newbie
Jun 9, 2009
29
2
I would so much appreciate if someone would post a good pic of these confounded lines, or a URL to a pic somewhere else.

The lines are often subtle. I've seen MBAs both with and without them (I'm writing this on a Rev A MBA that does not have lines) and when I show an MBA with lines to other people, only some of them can see the lines. I think one would have a difficult time capturing the lines with a camera.

If you are one of the luck folks that doesn't notice the lines during normal use, I would suggest you not worry about them and enjoy your new MBA. :)

If I haven't convinced you to leave it at that: turn up your brightness all the way, load up Safari, navigate to the URL: "about:blank", and expand the Safari window to take up the whole screen. You'll have a bright white screen. Look at it from different angles and see if you can spot any lines. Each time I've encountered them, if I recall correctly, they look like 0.2mm areas of reduced brightness (aka gray) lines with about 0.5mm of 'normal' brightness between them. They repeat over the entire screen, they are parallel to one another, they run horizontal, but not perfectly horizontal, about 10% off, starting higher on the left and running lower to the right. They vary in intensity depending on up/down viewing angle (less difference is noticeable looking left/right).
 

h1d

macrumors regular
Nov 30, 2008
237
0
Got a new rev C this morning and I can see the lines but not as annoying as I didn't hope it would be and here's my first impression on the machine generally. (Don't think starting yet another thread would've been nice, so just adding to a random popular thread...) I'm (was) a rev A SSD user. And this is my 3rd MBA from rev A HDD being the first. So, for those that skipped rev B might find it somewhat imformative.

Lines are probably just as faint as I saw at Tokyo Apple Store last weekend. Not as visible on white background but more so on light colored backgrounds of grey/brown, and no, it doesn't take my attention.

The speed is ok. But it's quite subtle to be honest, you can feel "Oh, it's prolly a tad bit faster" but that's about it from rev A SSD. I'm sure big difference exists from HDD version just like I felt from rev A HDD to SSD, and obviously lack of any disk activity sound is great.

Then, the thermal problem making the kernel process stutter from rev A is probably simply gone, which is really nice. I watched some 5min of HD movies on it and no stutter (no coolbook installed), no kernel_task going berserk. I even opened the case and re applied the thermal paste but I don't think the temperature made any change (even if it did, just a few c, so I doubt it's worth doing if you're concerned.) On calm moments, the CPU temperature is at 50c (room temp is 20c+), when watching HD vid, it goes up to 80 (istats reports 90 but coolbook says 80 when installed), but obviously not the horrendous 100c (and shuts itself down sooner or later) like rev A did...

Fan noise seems to be more "polite" than rev A which just was lousy noise when it hits 6.2k. Just my opinion but fan noise seems steadier.

Keyboard, which I wasn't aware and some of you probably aren't is that the Ctrl button is now put back to where Windows machine would have at left down next to fn (since rev B?) and Caps Lock is on the middle of the left row. For me, as a programmer, this is a bit of a let down... as rev A had Ctrl on the middle left, which was nice.

I've tested a bit of 3D performance and installed Eve Online on mac (space mmorpg 3D game) and flew a newby ship around and it showed about 20 or so FPS on medium settings (couldn't get any better FPS on lower settings), which was quite fine when not in condensed zone, but I guess things can go slow in busy moments. (Gonna test some FPS games [CoD4, HL2 and some such] on Windows once I make this triple boot later)

Disk space is doubled, which is great, especially when you want multiple OS with at least 5GB for each instances.

I looked at the display connections but was too complicated for me to even try swapping rev A display onto it on my first go... (it had some star shaped screw, which I couldn't unscrew as well) perhaps when someone can help me with the process I might try later.

To be honest, if you're satisfied with rev A SSD, there isn't hell of a big reason for a change, when including the risk of getting crappier display and CoolBook being the savior for rev A's critical problem. (For perhaps 1k expense, by selling rev A at 1k, getting rev C at 2k) The line problem in rev C, while it's still visible, if you already know about it (no wonder Apple won't fix as people usually don't notice this [and interestingly enough, if I focus on actual use of the computer, I even forget about lines], unless told so, but that doesn't mean this obvious problem should be left over multiple iterations... for sake.)

I'll report any other things if I think it's worth it as I use (and possibly how it fairs on WinXP and Linux real booting). Right now, I think I'm going to keep this rev C as lines aren't killing me at all.
 

h1d

macrumors regular
Nov 30, 2008
237
0
Just tested listening to Apple Lossless format music but I can say the audio got better, in a way the sound is a bit clearer.

I sometimes use an external usb audio device (just a small dongle) that will enhance the quality pretty well for a pretty cheap one (http://www.soundblaster.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=207&product=17892) (seems they made a new version of it as well lately), but MBA alone isn't too bad now. (Love my Bose earphone btw :))

Also, on the previous post, I took some photos of the inside of the new MBA (tho, they could be posted elsewhere already), if anyone is interested, I'll post them. (But since the photos are taken by iPhone and I'm pretty much a noob at photo, don't expect any great quality...)

Scottsdale, I have rev A SSD (no lines) and rev C SSD (with some lines) right now, if you need me to test anything, let me know (unless it's super complicated.)

About the ctrl being the far left middle, os x's stock keyboard config has a way to have it as ctrl... that was easy fix.
 
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