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Stanly.ok

macrumors member
Nov 1, 2011
44
82
RED isn't going to just hand Apple their code
This is the exciting part: camera manufacturers do hand over some of their code to Apple / Blackmagic etc. to get RAW support in NLEs. It's one of the things that helped Blackmagic get RAW recording from Canon C300 II to Video Assist 12G:

Apple's primary job isn't selling more RED cameras
I believe it's the other way around: Apple might've wanted to implement R3D acceleration somewhat on their own into Afterburner at the time when Craig Federighi said "There's more to come" to appeal with a Mac Pro + Afterburner to every RED Camera owner. But for RED it makes more sense if every current Mac owner can save money on Apple hardware and invest into RED instead. The whole timing of that patent dispute (May - November), Mac Pro and Afterburner announcement and shipping dates (June - December), R3D Metal SDK (Delayed from September to December) – not a coincidence.

By the way this is the image Jarred used to announce the METAL GPU accelerated R3D support:
http://instagr.am/p/B5_RO3cBT8v/
And the image to mark the win at patent dispute:
http://instagr.am/p/B4psVtDhfKe/
Looks like a lot of subtle trolling, especially with that window on the apple (=
 
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PowerMike G5

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2005
556
245
New York, NY
This is the exciting part: camera manufacturers do hand over some of their code to Apple / Blackmagic etc. to get RAW support in NLEs. It's one of the things that helped Blackmagic get RAW recording from Canon C300 II to Video Assist 12G:

Hey thanks for sending this!!! I didn't realize BM added BM RAW recording support to the Canon C300 MII, along with an updated plugin for use in Adobe PP. It's good to know I have that as an option as I have been looking for a smaller raw recorder. The 5" version just may do it.
 
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Stanly.ok

macrumors member
Nov 1, 2011
44
82
They still have to ship any of those – were supposed to be "on the shelves" in October ... my guess is that some IP issues are stopping them this time, we'll see.
 
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H. Flower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2008
759
852
So with no encoding acceleration, this simply speeds up playback of pro res on timelines....which our systems are already pretty capable of.

So sort of a dud, yes?
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
4,313
2,713
Would not exactly call it a "dud" - it does what it is programed to do and works as advertised for the specific usage that it was intended and sold as.

For many people, it is a total waste of money/resources to purchase and Afterburner. There is no reprogramming option and very little 3rd party support/adoption nearly 9 months after release. Do not expect any additional tools or support to be added. It is not the magic potion that many were hoping for.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
So with no encoding acceleration, this simply speeds up playback of pro res on timelines....which our systems are already pretty capable of.

Capable of 3 ProResRAW 8K streams?

Afterburner is more about concurrency than just simple capability of a single legacy ProRes video stream. Even if the host CPU could do the ProRes conversions if there are other tasks assigned to the CPU, at some level of broad workload tasking the conversion will get spotty. That happens even faster at 8K RAW HDR kinds of video streams (again more than one at the same time being an important aspect.)

For example, a background transcode from ProRes to something else. The decode embedded in that process would have lower impact on foreground session doing something thing else. If only do one "thing" at a time then there isn't much of a value add.


So sort of a dud, yes?

Not really priced to be a super duper, tool for "everybody". ( basically "built to order" with two week lead times. Not stocked in quantity at retailers. )


Apple did grossly over sell the notion of "no proxies anywhere for anybody" notion. Which implicitly drove many presumptions that it would cover any primary native format people could think up. It does not. Basically it is closer to no proxies as long as using ProRes. For folks entirely inside the ProRes silo that pitch is largely 'true'. For folks dealing with a wide variety of source file formats it is largely not 'true' .

This is one of those situations where Apple paints themselves into a corner and it probably will take a long while for them to work their way back out of it. The "no proxy" presumption is firmly grounded in the premise that all the context that matters is already in ProRes format. So encoding ProRes is no a big issue because already in ProRes (and don't 'need' a proxy ProRes).


Additionally, with the T2 present in the modern Macs and the Apple Silicon coming. Encoding/decoding the more common consumption video format probably was looked at as a non problem. Afterburner doesn't have to cover that because at some point uniformly covered by all Macs ( won't need big iron to do it. Fixed function encode/decode would be present across the whole line up. )
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
it's really a shame that it's not reprogrammable...

The RedRocket card had a FGPA in it. How many other formats did it cover during that product lifecycle?

Not sure why folks had a huge expectation for do everything for everybody. In deployed context for a narrow primary purpose, FPGA card don't flip flop around much minute by minute or hour by hour or even day by day.

If ProRes evaluated over time it could adjust with "firmware" updates (e.g., ProRes VR or ProRes RAW 10K or etc. ). If Apple changed their mind and wanted to add ProRes encode that too could be a firmware update that Apple rolled out.

Apple wasn't going into the generic FPGA card selling business.
 
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H. Flower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2008
759
852
Capable of 3 ProResRAW 8K streams?

- ProresRAW is rare. I’d love to edit in it, but do I really want to wait for an encode? If only there was something that could speed that process up....

- 8k delivery is extremely rare. Vast vast majority of video industry is not delivering in 8k. Most still in HD for broadcast and streaming. Some in 4k for streaming.

We need software that is optimized for editing in 4k prores. Apple is there, da Vinci is there, Adobe ... sorta. But we also need hardware optimized for encoding 4k prores so we can edit in it. And optimized for rendering! That’s the stuff that gets in our way.

Or, at least, that’s the way I see it.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
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- ProresRAW is rare. I’d love to edit in it, but do I really want to wait for an encode? If only there was something that could speed that process up....

The primary point of ProResRAW is to record the primary (master) copy in the format. It would get "encoded" when the camera captures the images. You're at some other end of the process. That isn't where Afterburner is trying to be ( any more than the RedRocket card was trying to be there). [ literally 'Afterburner' suggests the tail end of the a jet engine but that positioning isn't where the product actually fits. It is more so that it is "extra gas" thrown on the thrust the Mac Pro already can produce. It enables an narrow offload so the processor and/or GPU resources can be plowed into something else. ]


Are there a relatively (to whole video capture camera market) low number of cameras that record in ProResRAW ? Yes. However, in the same ballpark as RED and it has it own card for its own format.
( ProResRAW has some upside over time since it covers more camera makers which should also grow over time. Also Atomos recorders which will deepen the supply of ProResRAW footage over the near term time also. )

Afterburner is part of the bootstraping to get ProRes RAW going. If it is a harder to work with format then less folks will adopt it. $2-8K camera and perhaps $2-4 ProResRAW recorder and/or monitor) and the adoption process doesn't have a $15-20K camera cost barrier to entry.



Are there an order of magnitude more cameras that capture HDR 4K video in a non ProRes format? Yes. Is Afterburner going to help with those? No. Is that one of the primary markets Apple was thinking of for Afterburner? Very probably not.



- 8k delivery is extremely rare. Vast vast majority of video industry is not delivering in 8k. Most still in HD for broadcast and streaming. Some in 4k for streaming.

While 8K delivery is rare there is substantive number of folks who are capturing in > 4K formats. Part of it is "future proofing" the content ( perhaps reissue it again later when delivery systems improve). Part of it is "capture and crop" and "capture and adjust deeply".

So the issue is how to you rapidly 'scrub' through "too much" without creating proxies.

Even if not 8K, it is also a high multiple 4K stream multiplier of doing shots with more than a handful of cameras. If there is only 1-2, 4K (or less ), video streams in the mix, then Afterburner doesn't really have much traction.

Higher end "filming" productions is where Apple mainly targeted the Afterburner. It isn't for "most classic Mac Pro users" at all. ( anymore than the Vega II Duo is either. ).

Smaller scale productions it won't have an impact, but I highly doubt Apple was trying to make an impact there with this specific card. The cores and the other GPGPU core in the Mac Pro are targeted at that. Throwing $2K at those would make more of a "bang for the buck" difference.


We need software that is optimized for editing in 4k prores.

That seems more of editing what content than of editing. For relatively high storage footprint ProRes ( as high as can 'tolerate' ) Afterburner makes a difference. For shops that don't ingest high footprint ProRes then it won't make a difference.

"I get a wide variety of stuff and would like to covert all of that into ProRes" . That isn't what Afterburner is for. And frankly that probably not a good job for a FGPA based product. FPGA are good for configuring the gate array to do one job extremely well. If trying to ingest and covert a smorgasbord of formats that isn't "one job". A more general purpose compute solution is highly likely a much better fit ( since it will have to adapt to multiple jobs. )


. But we also need hardware optimized for encoding 4k prores so we can edit in it. And optimized for rendering! That’s the stuff that gets in our way.

Rendering isn't decoding. (at least to me. It seems folks have definitions. ). Again rendering ( adjusting colors , putting "effects" on top of the video ) is adding stuff to what was captured by the camera. Again isn't a particularly good job for a FPGA unless it is just one, narrow type of job. ( green screen effect . title effect. )

Implementing a wide variety of editing knobs and sliders is a general purpose compute task.


Afterburner is also not trying to be hardware solution. It is basically hidden behind the Apple APIs for handling video. If it is there and appropriate it gets used. If not then Apple's software implementations are used. It isn't about other folks software or (plug-ins). [ Again goes toward Apple's vision for handling video at the foundational level. ] For the folks that ignore Apple's library there are substantive adjustments to make. For folks who don't then not as much.
 
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