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Fastest Macpro from 2008 is 10% slower than the fastest iMac according to benchmarks. A top end macbook pro is slightly faster than your mac pro.

http://www.primatelabs.ca/geekbench/mac-benchmarks/


The 64-bit is an effective tie between the i7 iMac/Macbook Pro and the 2008 Mac Pro 8 core 3.2. http://www.primatelabs.ca/geekbench/mac-benchmarks/#64bit

That's pretty darn good for a machine 4 years old. And once you take into account max RAM, video cards, HD space, the tie in the benchmarks makes the Mac Pro quite a bit better.
 
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Why bother with a new case if they discontinue the line anyway after the next refresh?

He said "at least one more". Whether the Mac Pro comes out of the next refresh after this or not is not primarily up to Apple. It is whether customers buy it or not. The mods, if any, are likely an attempt to "grow" the Mac Pro market. That is one aspect Apple does control. Whether people buy the updated models in sufficient volumes to warrant a follow on refresh is something that Apple does not control. If they do then the mods would live on in a viable product line.

As long as there is relatively good (i.e., rough parity with the other Mac models) year over year growth in Mac Pro sales Apple will probably stick with it. But it takes two to tango. If Apple believes not enough folks are going to show up to dance with, they'll move on. They do not have to make a Mac Pro regardless of lack of growth.
 
He said "at least one more". Whether the Mac Pro comes out of the next refresh after this or not is not primarily up to Apple. It is whether customers buy it or not. The mods, if any, are likely an attempt to "grow" the Mac Pro market. That is one aspect Apple does control. Whether people buy the updated models in sufficient volumes to warrant a follow on refresh is something that Apple does not control. If they do then the mods would live on in a viable product line.

Well, good mods certainly will help Apple keep the Mac Pro if it wanted to. A bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy there.

However, I'm not sure making the Mac Pro rackable will help all that much. It certainly would for some, but after Xserve's death, I don't see too many people using OSX in a cluster-type set up. A Mac Pro with OSX works great in combination with a linux based cluster. And the linux cluster gives you a lot more power for the money once you get above the $7000 workstation price range.

So if it was a relatively cheap change for Apple, yeah do it. But I'm not sure if up rooting the current production line would be worth it.
 
The chips are out, the gpu's are out, what excuse do they have now?

A prudent way to handle it is to take your expectations, divide them in half for all new and expected features and then take you expected release date and tack on 2 months. That's probably going to get you closer to reality, or at the minimal it gives you a life instead of wasting time getting pissed that the world doesn't rotate around you.
 
However, I'm not sure making the Mac Pro rackable will help all that much. It certainly would for some, but after Xserve's death, I don't see too many people using OSX in a cluster-type set up. A Mac Pro with OSX works great in combination with a linux based cluster. And the linux cluster gives you a lot more power for the money once you get above the $7000 workstation price range.

I know of loads of video post production houses where a rack mounted Mac Pro won't change their lives, but at least make things easier to manage and take up less space.
 
However, I'm not sure making the Mac Pro rackable will help all that much. It certainly would for some, but after Xserve's death, I don't see too many people using OSX in a cluster-type set up.

The XServe was dead in cluster-type set ups when it fell behind high speed interconnect (e.g., Infiniband) long before it was discontinued. That whole drive into a "supercomputer cluster" land wasn't particularly well thought out strategy.

This doesn't necessarily have to do with a cluster. There are numerous usages for a Mac Pro inside of just a 1/4 , 1/2 , or whole rack that are oriented around usage of OS X Server on jobs a Mac mini can't handle. The problem now is 1/4 and 1/2 rack set-ups are impeded by the vertical orientation now.

This issue is that a single ( or dual with fail-over ) server set up would work better in a rack. Place the Mac Pro (or two ) in a rack with some DAS (or NAS/SAN) storage units and perhaps a tape unit and you have a SMB IT infrastructure in a single rack. The Mac Pro could be sliced up with a hypervisor to offer up the 3-6 servers a modest sized shop would need. There is zero need to drift off into the "large enterprise" and/or multiple "cloud rack" kind of solutions.


Putting OS X Server aside, the Mac Pro may be relatively quiet for a workstation of its caliber it may need to be attached to a "banging and clanging" storage or I/O box in a rack in another room. Nor is the vertical set up conducive if have a semi-mobile 1/4 height set-up that move from location to location.

Finally, if a shop needs just one or two software update servers and/or a "mega large" Time Capsule storage server then even just a singular Mac Pro horizontally racked up with the other myriad of Linux/Windows boxes is a better fit.

The HP workstations are rack mountable. For the most part the Dell ones are also. It isn't like other vendors haven't already implemented the features and they aren't being leveraged at least as much as folks significantly leverage both pairs of the MP handles.


A Mac Pro with OSX works great in combination with a linux based cluster. And the linux cluster gives you a lot more power for the money once you get above the $7000 workstation price range.

This isn't all about purely computational benchmarks. In that context the Mac Pro looses traction. If batch rendering jobs are primary bottleneck then yes those will drift off the Mac Pro. There is really no huge need for a purely local GUI or purely local data storage.

Collapsing workload onto fewer boxes has been a large and growing market (e.g., virtualization ) as much as "scale out" clusters has been over the last 4-5 years. Frankly, this is one of the systemic problems of the Mac Pro; overly narrow concepts of where it can be deployed effectively.


So if it was a relatively cheap change for Apple, yeah do it. But I'm not sure if up rooting the current production line would be worth it.

In between motherboard revisions, sure it would make no sense. However, the new E5's require a new socket and hence new board. The internals would be shifting anyway. The case is just how the internals interface with the outside world. There are other dynamics going on ( ODD out of favor , SSDs , Thunderbolt , USB 3.0 , GPGPU upswing, etc. ) all of which allow consolidated usage of a Mac Pro coupled to other boxes in a rack to tackle specialized missions.
 
Fastest Macpro from 2008 is 10% slower than the fastest iMac according to benchmarks. A top end macbook pro is slightly faster than your mac pro.

http://www.primatelabs.ca/geekbench/mac-benchmarks/


If he's actually making use of that much ram (and I don't know if he updated the gpu) it's possible his current machine could remain much more functional, especially when he already has that. 10% wouldn't really motivate me to do expensive upgrades, as 10% in terms of benchmarks doesn't translate to a 10% gain in productivity (especially not if I'm posting on here:p).
 
I wish we just knew if Intel has sent or is about to send a load of E5's to Apple or not. I'm getting the feeling that Apple hasn't done a thing, one way or the other, as we wait impatiently for some news.
 
Fastest Macpro from 2008 is 10% slower than the fastest iMac according to benchmarks. A top end macbook pro is slightly faster than your mac pro.


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Sorry should have clarified. I am talking about rendering speed and CUDA really. I have dual 2gb dual NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 Cards - These are custom cards that Premiere and my 3d Application can access and utilise for rendering. These, the Ram and SSD's means it really does tear apart renders.

like these but with 2GB - they are PC cards with custom roms that utilise more pipes etc

My point was even 4 years on it's adaptable and performs faster in real life than the iMac.

That reminds me of another point...
PCI cards are used heavily in pro use - Audio cards - specialist graphics card like the Red Rocket for example. Breakout cards etc all things the iMac cannot do.
 
It could simply be that the Mac Pro isn't as huge a priority as it used to be, so they're not pushing to get chips early like they normally do.

You were the one that SWORE the Mac Pro would never die. That scenario is suddenly now plausible?

Better late than never, to join the realists. :p
 
Am I the only one that sees that chart as hopeful?
I like it! Not only is the MP on par with the mini, it averages better than the Airs....

My point was even 4 years on it's adaptable and performs faster in real life than the iMac.

That reminds me of another point...
PCI cards are used heavily in pro use - Audio cards - specialist graphics card like the Red Rocket for example. Breakout cards etc all things the iMac cannot do.
Last week I bought "A Scanner Darkly" and watched it.

One special feature was on the animation process. Maybe 38 animators worked on it for 18 months. Interviews and footage of them at work.

There was a big fat shiny solid Mac Pro on every single desk in the video.

It was beautiful!
 
Can somebody tell me what's wrong with the Mac Pro case? Okay, the top handles are a bit uncomfortable to use, but forgetting that, what's wrong with it?

The internals are a dream to work with. There's room for everything and changing hardware is obscenely easy. The front and back grid allow for very, very cool and quiet operation considering how powerful these machines are.

What exactly needs to change for the better here? Apple's design standards are for usability and simplicity. What is not usable or simplistic about the Mac Pro case? For a pro, I'd argue it's just about perfect, and for the life of me I can't see anything that's flawed about it (except those handles digging into my skin).

So, can somebody tell me, what's wrong with it that needs to be changed? I'm seriously asking here.
 
So, can somebody tell me, what's wrong with it that needs to be changed? I'm seriously asking here.

People have various reasons. Some see the handles as superfluous, some think it's too big, others think it's too small and some just want change.

Personally I feel the size of the case is too limiting when compared to other workstations.

Look at the HP Z820. It is 17.5" x 8.0" x 20.7" compared to the Mac Pro's 20.1" x 8.1" x 18.7". They are basically the same size. Yeah the HP doesn't look as nice, but I'd rather have 3 external 5.25-inch bays, adequate cooling head room for high TDP processors, 16 memory slots and 6 PCI-E expansion slots. If Apple don't change the case they you are again probably going to be limited to what it is now.
 
People have various reasons. Some see the handles as superfluous, some think it's too big, others think it's too small and some just want change.

Personally I feel the size of the case is too limiting when compared to other workstations.

I'm not sure what motivates their design choices. Just for reference Lenovo makes a slimmer case that still holds 3x 3.5" drives. You could probably swap a fourth in place of the ODD. Look up the C20. If Apple wanted to go the way of compactness, that would be one possibility. I'm just not sure where they see it right now.
 
Can somebody tell me what's wrong with the Mac Pro case? Okay, the top handles are a bit uncomfortable to use, but forgetting that, what's wrong with it?

The internals are a dream to work with. There's room for everything and changing hardware is obscenely easy. The front and back grid allow for very, very cool and quiet operation considering how powerful these machines are.

What exactly needs to change for the better here? Apple's design standards are for usability and simplicity. What is not usable or simplistic about the Mac Pro case? For a pro, I'd argue it's just about perfect, and for the life of me I can't see anything that's flawed about it (except those handles digging into my skin).

So, can somebody tell me, what's wrong with it that needs to be changed? I'm seriously asking here.

Well what they could do if the have chosen to redesign it is to make it a stackable box with a CPU, GPU, RAM, and system disk. All other drives, and possible even the system disk, could be in a separate box via Thunderbolt (TB), either Apple or 3rd party, that would feature the same ability to quickly swap out drives that we have now. Then if you need to work in another studio you can take the drive with you and use it with any Thunderbolt (TB) Mac.

So why would they do this? Well one reason they might do this is that it is a very good way to drive TB into the market.

Some people will hate this idea, so Apple might actually do it on past behavior, to create a bold radical redesign of the workstation concept.
 
People have various reasons. Some see the handles as superfluous, some think it's too big, others think it's too small and some just want change.

Personally I feel the size of the case is too limiting when compared to other workstations.

Look at the HP Z820. It is 17.5" x 8.0" x 20.7" compared to the Mac Pro's 20.1" x 8.1" x 18.7". They are basically the same size. Yeah the HP doesn't look as nice, but I'd rather have 3 external 5.25-inch bays, adequate cooling head room for high TDP processors, 16 memory slots and 6 PCI-E expansion slots. If Apple don't change the case they you are again probably going to be limited to what it is now.

Handles are definitely not superfluous. How else would you carry the thing?

At least you're asking for more, and not less like some people who want the thing a fraction of the size, and have a fraction of the capability. I personally wouldn't turn down more internal HDDs.

Well what they could do if the have chosen to redesign it is to make it a stackable box with a CPU, GPU, RAM, and system disk. All other drives, and possible even the system disk, could be in a separate box via Thunderbolt (TB), either Apple or 3rd party, that would feature the same ability to quickly swap out drives that we have now. Then if you need to work in another studio you can take the drive with you and use it with any Thunderbolt (TB) Mac.

So why would they do this? Well one reason they might do this is that it is a very good way to drive TB into the market.

Some people will hate this idea, so Apple might actually do it on past behavior, to create a bold radical redesign of the workstation concept.

I hate the idea. For one, it would be rather expensive. Extra brackets inside the box and SATA cables aren't that big a deal, but have you seen the prices of Thunderbolt! stuff? It's a chicken and the egg problem, I know, Thunderbolt! prices won't come down until there's a lot more of them, but there won't be a lot more of them unless people buy them and people won't buy them until they're cheaper.

I think Apple hates the idea too. They've put a lot of work into making things simpler and all-in-the-box. Having everything be a peripheral outside the box is complicated. I think you're going to see Apple dropping 3.5" bays entirely for an all-SSD set-up in a much smaller enclosure, long before you see them externalize all their had drives.
 
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Handles are definitely not superfluous. How else would you carry the thing?

At least you're asking for more, and not less like some people who want the thing a fraction of the size, and have a fraction of the capability. I personally wouldn't turn down more internal HDDs.

...Thunderbolt! stuff?...
0) I love the case just as it is myself, though I could see how some might want more than 4 slots.

1) I guess lots of folks remember awkwardly manhandling a thin-walled, slick, handleless win-pc box around. I wouldn't want to try that with a Pro!

2) I wouldn't mind seeing a beefier power supply with an additional 6-pin and an 8-pin PCI power pull, so I could stick another mega-GPU in the second x16 slot. But, I know I could run power from an external supply if I needed to.

4) Thunderbolt . . . I asked, and someone pointed out, that it's limited to far less than PCI 2.0 x16 speed right at the moment, making it unmagical for serious GPU computing.

edit, for Umbongo: I know it's not the norm, but I am in fact about to start hauling my Mac Pro around for assignments! But, if I do enough of that, I might end up getting a rolling case.
 
4) Thunderbolt . . . I asked, and someone pointed out, that it's limited to far less than PCI 2.0 x16 speed right at the moment, making it unmagical for serious GPU computing.

Exactly. Thunderbolt will not connect any GPU, CPU or RAM anytime soon, without dramatic losses in performance.
 
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Sorry should have clarified. I am talking about rendering speed and CUDA really. I have dual 2gb dual NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 Cards - These are custom cards that Premiere and my 3d Application can access and utilise for rendering. These, the Ram and SSD's means it really does tear apart renders.

like these but with 2GB - they are PC cards with custom roms that utilise more pipes etc

My point was even 4 years on it's adaptable and performs faster in real life than the iMac.

That reminds me of another point...
PCI cards are used heavily in pro use - Audio cards - specialist graphics card like the Red Rocket for example. Breakout cards etc all things the iMac cannot do.

In this case your Mac Pro is likely 400% faster than i7 iMac. Seriously. Dual GTX 285's for mercury? No contest.
 
In this case your Mac Pro is likely 400% faster than i7 iMac. Seriously. Dual GTX 285's for mercury? No contest.
When I got my used 2009 Mac Pro baseline 4-core, I was ASTOUNDED at how much faster it is than my 2010 MacBook Pro (with upgrade to fastest i7). Like at least EIGHT, maybe TEN times as fast at compiling/linking in XCode. Absolutely bliddy astonishing. It's gone from "time to take a pee now" to "just blink twice and it's done".

So, yeah, I don't even bother commenting anymore when someone says a mobile i7 can whack a pack of Xeons. It's just plain darn silly, that's all.

It does, of course, depend on how well-suited to multithreading the application in question is.

I write my own software, and I pay serious attention to optimal use of hardware, but I still don't see near 10x speedup in my own app (though I am after all very GPU-dependent). So, the boost in XCode was very surprising -- how much can you multithread a compiler? -- leading me to believe that something else under the hood in the Xeon architecture is just so much better organized than the i5/i7 setup as to provide jawdropping performance differences under certain circumstances....
 
So, the boost in XCode was very surprising -- how much can you multithread a compiler? -- leading me to believe that something else under the hood in the Xeon architecture ....

How much? By a lot if bother to gather very basic information about the project (dependency information between files/targets. Some basic IDE editor scanners can gather this automatically in most cases. It was easily done when had to create "make files" by hand. )

xcodebuild -ParallelizeTargets

http://developer.apple.com/library/...win/Reference/ManPages/man1/xcodebuild.1.html


distcc

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/distcc.1.html

Similarly, GNU Make has had parallel build capability for quite a while now.

Spawning off 4-10 processes with a fork/exec or creating 4-10 more lightweight threads (with some "create thread" call ) isn't really much different if trying to get all 4 cores working at full speed with some I/O capped ( reading from several files) workload.

Unless the programmer is one of those maintenance nightmare relics who puts all 30K lines of code in a single file, each file of the project can be processed in parallel. It is easy to parallel locally and across several machines with some minimal infrastructure support.


A 'laptop' CPU with the same amount of RAM and same speed disks as in the Mac Pro would likely turn in very similar results if the core count was also matched.
 
I personally wouldn't turn down more internal HDDs.
Me neither. Ideally together with hardware-implemented RAID up to 5/6.

I think Apple hates the idea too. They've put a lot of work into making things simpler and all-in-the-box. Having everything be a peripheral outside the box is complicated. I think you're going to see Apple dropping 3.5" bays entirely for an all-SSD set-up in a much smaller enclosure, long before you see them externalize all their had drives.
I think one could argue that. Except for the MacPro, Apple only offers closed computers that eventually force many users to add external boxes once the harddrive is full - that's one of the major targets for Thunderbolt ports on nearly every machine in Apple's current portfolio (which besides destroys the marketing of the All-in-one iMac that does not clutter your desktop with its single power cable). Together with the iCloud activities i would say that Apple already started to externalize their drives.

For the next - say - 3 years i don't see SSD's being able to compete on the price per Gigabyte with spinning drives. Same goes for 2.5" drives in comparison to their bigger relatives, so i think the time is not yet there to drop 3.5" bays entirely...
 
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