AMD FirePro D500 graphics card (Mac Pro Late 2013) doesn’t meet Oculus Rift’s specifications

[MacVidCards]

So, quick update. First up, looks like no Mac Pro ever made is going to meet the specs out of the box.

They specifically requires an AMD R9 290, which is Hawaii. ie, the generation AFTER 7970/R9 280X/D700.

And the SDK versions specifcally say after AMD 7xxx and "no multi GPU". So, no Mac Pro ever made meets this.

I just tried with a 5,1 sporting a single X5690, and it told me my CPU wasn't good enough. I followed the link and it told me that it was all about single core speed and apparently the age of an i7 3.46 makes it slower than the required i5 4590 3.3.

That being said, my guess is that they have put those standards pretty high to make sure the original experience is awesome, and not average. But I doubt they will have "locks" to keep mid level stuff out, and if they do, someone like Netkas will find a "fix". Stuff without enough VRAM may be excluded however by functional limits. As a "for instance" I can tell you from experience that Uningine Valley will crash and quit on Extreme HD if you don't have at least 1GB of VRAM. I could see this requiring more than 2 or 3GB, which would exclude all but D700.

I think I'm still the only one to get eGPU working on Windows with nMP but eGPU with other Macs will likely work as well. Will be silly if I have to put the 3.7 4-Core back in to get it to say "A-OK"

All in all, with the vast and sweeping compromises made for "thin and shiny" over function, Occulus Rift will not be putting a good light on Macs.

 

[mcnallym]

Is Oculus Rift a game? Badda Bing!

VR needs graphics performance similar to many games, so no surprise that "gaming systems" meet the requirements.

Anyway, sad that whatever it is, most MP6,1 systems (in fact, most Apple systems) don't meet the requirements, and never will. On the other hand, a simple GPU upgrade will add support for older cMP systems and those systems running the more popular OSs.

Do you not see the pattern here?

Yes I see a pattern, the same pattern as elvisiser has and commented on!

It is a pity that you don't see the other pattern.

MBP = Non-Standard PCI-E SSD, Soldered RAM, not much upgrading possible
Mini = Non-Standard PCI-E SSD, Soldered RAM, removal of Quad Option, removal of dGPU, not much upgrading possible
nMP = Non-Standard PCI-E SSD, though OWC seem to have some parts now, non-Standard GPU Cards, no internal expansion, lack of regular updates, not much upgrading possible
iMac = 21.5" Non-Standard PCI-E SSD, Soldered RAM, not much upgrading possible
rMB = Non-Standard PCI-E SSD, Soldered RAM. Is there anything that can upgrade on this at all?

Apple is across the entire range making less accessible, less user changeable.
The entire range is now consistently just 1 internal volume as ships out of Apple, so makes very standard in terms of what is presented. This has gotten worse over the past 3 years, not better and Apple seems to be making more money then ever over those years, so clearly doesn't appear to be hitting the bottom line at Apple.

It works for some, not for others.

This is precisely why the nMP isn't a suitable machine as it isn't intended to be an Entertainment machine, or a Gaming machine with the ability to be taking the latest and greatest GPU Cards. Even with the cMP then until recently there was never a mass choice of GPU cards working in it. It certainly isn't down to Apple, that you can continue to plug the latest Nvidia GPU cards into the cMP. Instead it is purely down to Nvidia providing the drivers, and lets face it Apple don't exactly help there either with changing things so that have to get new driver with the new releases, making extra work for Nvidia. Despite the drivers being available then they don't add them into OSX either.

Storage Cards were limited as well. My preference is Adaptec, however nothing after 2002 from them for Apple, so by the time I came to Apple (late 2008) then no option for an Adaptec Card for Storage.

Companies and there products move on. Who would have predicted back in 1984 that IBM and Apple would end up in partnership and IBM wouldn't be in the PC market anymore having pulled out of it, selling the entire, Desktop/Laptop/x86 Server business to Lenovo.

How long have people been asking for the xMac, the consumer level upgradeable Mac, with the ability to change, Storage, CPU's, GPU's etc exactly like is a PC. Hasn't happened yet, and if anything is getting further away, and less likely. With apple not using standard UEFI then can't see it happening anytime soon either. People who want that sort of machine are served well enough by DIY PC building, and if careful then can even Hackintosh it. Apple certainly don't appear to be interested in serving that market.

Apple make machines for certain markets. Big Tower pack it into the box, and allow user replacement of everything isn't one of those markets they are in
[doublepost=1452402949][/doublepost]

So, quick update. First up, looks like no Mac Pro ever made is going to meet the specs out of the box.

They specifically requires an AMD R9 290, which is Hawaii. ie, the generation AFTER 7970/R9 280X/D700.

And the SDK versions specifcally say after AMD 7xxx and "no multi GPU". So, no Mac Pro ever made meets this.

I just tried with a 5,1 sporting a single X5690, and it told me my CPU wasn't good enough. I followed the link and it told me that it was all about single core speed and apparently the age of an i7 3.46 makes it slower than the required i5 4590 3.3.

That being said, my guess is that they have put those standards pretty high to make sure the original experience is awesome, and not average. But I doubt they will have "locks" to keep mid level stuff out, and if they do, someone like Netkas will find a "fix". Stuff without enough VRAM may be excluded however by functional limits. As a "for instance" I can tell you from experience that Uningine Valley will crash and quit on Extreme HD if you don't have at least 1GB of VRAM. I could see this requiring more than 2 or 3GB, which would exclude all but D700.

I think I'm still the only one to get eGPU working on Windows with nMP but eGPU with other Macs will likely work as well. Will be silly if I have to put the 3.7 4-Core back in to get it to say "A-OK"

All in all, with the vast and sweeping compromises made for "thin and shiny" over function, Occulus Rift will not be putting a good light on Macs.

So the cMP won't meet the requirements either, even with it's most powerful available CPU, and so can't be upgraded to meet the requirements either. I guess we are starting to approach the point where the CPU's in the cMP start to become an issue, with new software being developed.

Somehow I am not expecting to see a mass dumping of 4,1 and 5,1 on eBay and those people building Hackinstoshes, or Win10 machines.

 

[Demigod Mac]

The advanced age of the nMP hardware and limited upgradeability is more than tangential in this case. It's highly relevant to the issue.
Don't you see, it's literally poisoning everything about the Mac Pro the longer Apple lets this situation drag on.

 

[Stacc]

So, quick update. First up, looks like no Mac Pro ever made is going to meet the specs out of the box.

They specifically requires an AMD R9 290, which is Hawaii. ie, the generation AFTER 7970/R9 280X/D700.

And the SDK versions specifcally say after AMD 7xxx and "no multi GPU". So, no Mac Pro ever made meets this.

I just tried with a 5,1 sporting a single X5690, and it told me my CPU wasn't good enough. I followed the link and it told me that it was all about single core speed and apparently the age of an i7 3.46 makes it slower than the required i5 4590 3.3.

That being said, my guess is that they have put those standards pretty high to make sure the original experience is awesome, and not average. But I doubt they will have "locks" to keep mid level stuff out, and if they do, someone like Netkas will find a "fix". Stuff without enough VRAM may be excluded however by functional limits. As a "for instance" I can tell you from experience that Uningine Valley will crash and quit on Extreme HD if you don't have at least 1GB of VRAM. I could see this requiring more than 2 or 3GB, which would exclude all but D700.

I think I'm still the only one to get eGPU working on Windows with nMP but eGPU with other Macs will likely work as well. Will be silly if I have to put the 3.7 4-Core back in to get it to say "A-OK"

All in all, with the vast and sweeping compromises made for "thin and shiny" over function, Occulus Rift will not be putting a good light on Macs.

Lack of crossfire support is true, but keep in mind AMD is working on drivers that will allow crossfire to work with VR. Support in upcoming games is expected throughout this year.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Yawn...Apple is not interested in bleeding edge technology until a market has matured, thats if they plan on using it at all or design their own. As mentioned, Oculus Rift is mostly used for gaming at this time, something that the majority of Mac Pro users users is not its primary function. Maybe when we see applications geared toward pro users such as CAD, engineering which is what the Mac Pro was designed to do. Not for playing kids games.

Perhaps Apple needs to look at the gaming market from a new perspective - or slide into irrelevance.

Apple already does, its called iOS. Gaming on the mobile platform has already passed gaming on the PC. Apples Gaming Center has more users then XBox Live.

 

[H2SO4]

You don't buy a Mac Pro, especially one with non-changeable GPUs, to play video games on.

If you really want VR without having to buy another $1000 computer, get a PS4 and Playstation VR when it's out in the next few months. Performance is said to be very close to the Oculus, the machine you need to run the platform is cheaper at $349, and PS VR will likely be less expensive than the disaster of a price the Oculus Rift is.

The lower pricing combined with Sony's install base for the PS4, which is currently at 36 million worldwide, means that developers are going to more strongly support developing titles for Sony's machine. In fact, according to an estimate by NVIDIA, only 13 million PCs will have the graphics capability needed to run VR in 2016. Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...re-powerful-enough-to-support-virtual-reality

Yes you do. I buy mine to be a jack of all trades. At that cost I expect it to be pretty good at almost everything. You may not buy a Rolls Royce as a race car but with a few mods you can use it very well as one.
The difference is that Apple have become even more proprietary and now that I’ve said that I almost find myself in agreement with your first assertion.
Go figure.

 

[MacVidCards]

I guess I need to fire up the eGPU and be the first (and only) nMP user to have an approved machine.

I think we all understand how important the tech is. Some are constrained by their apologist stance to pretend otherwise. Good news is they are apparently happy to experience VR on their iPhone.

 

[Kim Sanka]

Yes you do. I buy mine to be a jack of all trades. At that cost I expect it to be pretty good at almost everything.

I agree, I changed from Windows to Mac when Mac acquired Logic and did not support it for Windows any more. I ran a Mac Pro tower for years as a home computer. My tower got old so I had to replace it. I was running a multi monitor systems so it made no sense for me to buy an iMac. I had to save up money for a long time to be able to buy new Mac Pro, about 6 months ago. I wasn’t very exited about the new design and system but it’s not that I had a lot of options apart from ditching Logic and going back to Windows.

At least with a windows machine I could do everything with one machine (except running Logic that is). Saying you need seperate computers if you use a Mac is simply strange. Especially if you consider the price.

I am considering to sell my Mac Pro and buy a Windows machine (not an other Mac Pro, that’s for sure) and use Ableton on the same device that runs my games and VR. This machine will cost me a quarter of the price that I payed for my trashcan.

BTW: Sorry for my rand and thanks for all your replies.

 

[MacVidCards]

I'm sorry that you got taken.

The apologists don't realize that they are part of the problem. Disguising the truth helps nobody but Apple stockholders, and even for them it is a short term gain.

I hope they are getting paid, otherwise there is very little benefit to the glowing gibberish in support of this dead end system.

If I get the time I will dig through my old posts. I predicted this exact outcome, that a new tech would come and move 6,1 into the "unsupported" and "obsolete" category prematurely due to the absurdly locked in time GPUs.

 

[MarkC426]

You don't buy a Mac Pro, especially one with non-changeable GPUs, to play video games on.

If you really want VR without having to buy another $1000 computer, get a PS4 and Playstation VR when it's out in the next few months. Performance is said to be very close to the Oculus, the machine you need to run the platform is cheaper at $349, and PS VR will likely be less expensive than the disaster of a price the Oculus Rift is.

The lower pricing combined with Sony's install base for the PS4, which is currently at 36 million worldwide, means that developers are going to more strongly support developing titles for Sony's machine. In fact, according to an estimate by NVIDIA, only 13 million PCs will have the graphics capability needed to run VR in 2016. Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...re-powerful-enough-to-support-virtual-reality

From what I believe the Playstation VR is released December 31st 2016.
Amazon accidentally listed it in Canada (approx £550 gbp) and the Oculus Rift is said to be about £350 (this is from a UK newspaper article).

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

You need this
http://wccftech.com/msi-vortex-gaming-pc-ces-2016/

 

[mcnallym]

I agree, I changed from Windows to Mac when Mac acquired Logic and did not support it for Windows any more. I ran a Mac Pro tower for years as a home computer. My tower got old so I had to replace it. I was running a multi monitor systems so it made no sense for me to buy an iMac. I had to save up money for a long time to be able to buy new Mac Pro, about 6 months ago. I wasn’t very exited about the new design and system but it’s not that I had a lot of options apart from ditching Logic and going back to Windows.

At least with a windows machine I could do everything with one machine (except running Logic that is). Saying you need seperate computers if you use a Mac is simply strange. Especially if you consider the price.

I am considering to sell my Mac Pro and buy a Windows machine (not an other Mac Pro, that’s for sure) and use Ableton on the same device that runs my games and VR. This machine will cost me a quarter of the price that I payed for my trashcan.

BTW: Sorry for my rand and thanks for all your replies.

Not saying you have to use multiple computers when running Apple at all. I was simply saying that you need to use the correct tool for the job that it is expected to do.

I have three computers which have different purposes, ALL of which exclusively run OSX.

The cMP for the heavy work
The mini as it is on 24/7 - uses fair bit less electricity then the cMP
The laptop for casual browsing/gaming of older games, is more comfy on the sofa then the desk where the cMP is.

Otherwise you are saying that you expect me to lug a fully loaded out cMP and the 30" monitor and place them on my lap while using them lounging on the sofa, and pay the extra electricity bill from having the cMP on 24/7. Of course you aren't saying that, and I am not saying you are. Hence why I run multiple computers, as have different requirements for each of them.

You have two conflicting requirements

1.) A choice to use Logic for Music App. This requires OSX so you run an nMP for multi monitor support. Other people do run multi monitor on iMacs, others use the rmbp's in multi monitor so was a choice to go with the expensive nMP to do so.
2.) You now want to use Oculus Rift which no Apple Mac will meet the minimum requirements of. nMP because of the GPU, cMP due to the CPU being below recommendation. Laptops, mini, iMac for obvious reasons as well.

Ergo the nMP isn't suitable and you need to get a new machine to run Oculus Rift. Will that machine run Logic ( if it isn't a Mac will you hackintosh ) No it won't therefor would have two machines.

That is why saying we are saying you need multiple computers! as from what is purchasable in the past and today you won't find a single computer that does both ( unless you want to go hackintosh ).

People can go on and on and on ( like the past few years ) about what Products Apple SHOULD make or COULD make, however you can say that about any company, and not just in computing. Of what is available NOW then you need multiple machines due to your requirements that you have given. Or as you appear to be doing change your requirements so that one computer does do all.

 

[thornslack]

You need this
http://wccftech.com/msi-vortex-gaming-pc-ces-2016/

I wondered when someone would make the comparison of these machines.

And I am curious how the cMP 3.46 processors will handle oculus. Their single threaded performance is awfully close to the recommended i5 4590. Hopefully we'll have a few entrepid members to test things out.

 

[bogg]

Buying a Mac Pro to game on is like buying a tractor to race in nascar. Both have hundreds of bhp, but the tractor is designed for something entirely different. The race car vs rolls royce example above is silly, a 2.5 tonne rolls would need more than "minor changes" to work as a race car against real race cars.

Buying a Mac for heavy gaming is retarded, all macs save the Mac Pro have mobile gpus, and the Mac Pro has cards who are quite capable at OpenCL but not much else...

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I wondered when someone would make the comparison of these machines.

And I am curious how the cMP 3.46 processors will handle oculus. Their single threaded performance is awfully close to the recommended i5 4590. Hopefully we'll have a few entrepid members to test things out.

Depends on the game, some are very GPU bound and some need more CPU for things like enemy/opponent AI. The X56xx CPUs will be fine for first generation VR.

The Vortex makes the nMP look like the con it is. Modern components, user upgradeable CPU, GPUs and storage. No proprietary connectors. USB 3.1. Thunderbolt 3. An OS that supports plug and play eGPU. $1000 cheaper than base model trashcan.

 

[linuxcooldude]

The Vortex makes the nMP look like the con it is. Modern components, user upgradeable CPU, GPUs and storage. No proprietary connectors. USB 3.1. Thunderbolt 3. An OS that supports plug and play eGPU. $1000 cheaper than base model trashcan.

Apple meet orange. Consumer gaming machine and a workstation running pro apps. Different pricing structure based on the parts used and usage. I don't expect professional users going out in droves to use this machine in a work environment. Or vice versa for that matter.

 

[Kim Sanka]

Buying a Mac Pro to game on is like buying a tractor to race in nascar. Both have hundreds of bhp, but the tractor is designed for something entirely different. The race car vs rolls royce example above is silly, a 2.5 tonne rolls would need more than "minor changes" to work as a race car against real race cars.

Buying a Mac for heavy gaming is retarded, all macs save the Mac Pro have mobile gpus, and the Mac Pro has cards who are quite capable at OpenCL but not much else...

No one bought a Mac Pro for gaming.

Turn it around. If I would buy a 2000€ (Half of a Mac Pro!!!) gaming computer. It would be a very powerful computer which could also be used for virtually anything else (except running Apple software); surfing, video/image/3D editing, text processing, coding, etc. This would be normal because that’s what computers do.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m willing to pay more for stability… heck, even for a nice looking box.

BTW: My Mac Pro could play a descent game in Bootcamp if the drivers weren’t outdated. In Windows 8 I played big games on three monitors with the settings maxed-out after installing drivers that fooled my FirePro cards in to thinking they were Radeon cards.

Maybe the hardware comes up a bit short for Rift recommendations but the right drivers might close the gap significantly. Is that something I’m entitled to expect? Not that expecting it would make it likely to happen.

 

[Demigod Mac]

I'm somewhat skeptical that CPU is going to make that much of a difference.

According to Passmark's single thread benches:
W3690 = 1570
i5-4590 = 2121

i5 is 4 core, no Hyperthreading. (4 effective)
W3690 is 6 core with Hyperthreading. (12 effective)

Passmark's multi-thread benches:
W3690 = 9667
i5-4590 = 7213

In the requirements blog post they go on and on about how important the GPU is, nary a mention of the CPU.
DX12 and next-gen game engines will increasingly favor high core count as well.

ALSO... Don't discount VR as a gaming-only thing. Done properly, it would be a great asset for creative professionals (3D graphics and engineers specifically). I'm sure we'll see that happen soon enough.

 

[bogg]

No one bought a Mac Pro for gaming.

Turn it around. If I would buy a 2000€ (Half of a Mac Pro!!!) gaming computer. It would be a very powerful computer which could also be used for virtually anything else (except running Apple software); surfing, video/image/3D editing, text processing, coding, etc. This would be normal because that’s what computers do.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m willing to pay more for stability… heck, even for a nice looking box.

BTW: My Mac Pro could play a descent game in Bootcamp if the drivers weren’t outdated. In Windows 8 I played big games on three monitors with the settings maxed-out after installing drivers that fooled my FirePro cards in to thinking they were Radeon cards.

Maybe the hardware comes up a bit short for Rift recommendations but the right drivers might close the gap significantly. Is that something I’m entitled to expect? Not that expecting it would make it likely to happen.

Well, If I bought an OS X _workstation_ I'd be glad for any support in Windows at all and never expect anything else than the bare minimum in that environment. You can think or expect what you want, but in my mind you're not entitled to expect anything of Apple when it comes to the combination Windows and Games...
Apple never sold these as Radeon cards, they never said it was made for games. Thus they have no obligation to make drivers to enhance gaming performance.


I can understand your frustration in having purchased a computer for that much money and then not being able to use it for everything you wanted... But to be fair, Apple never said it was meant to be great at games in Windows, so expecting that it will be good at that is quite stupid IMHO.

But, in keeping with what's on topic: If you can enable Crossfire for your D500:s and get the drivers to work OK it should be more than enough for Oculus Rift. If it doesn't work in Windows 10, well, downgrade to Windows 8 if it worked better there...

I personally hold a strong belief in consumers reading up on what they buy and base their expections on that, if they don't do that they have no one else but themselves to blame that it doesn't do what they wanted it to.

I purchased an 27" iMac in August 2011 (IIRC), it couldn't game for crap even though I paid the equal to $3200 for it at the time (it was more or less fully specced). Did I complain? No, because I knew from the start that it had a mobile gpu and wouldn't be good for gaming.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Apple meet orange. Consumer gaming machine and a workstation running pro apps. Different pricing structure based on the parts used and usage. I don't expect professional users going out in droves to use this machine in a work environment. Or vice versa for that matter.

Apps are pro tools. Apps.

Anything about adopting server components and then calling it "pro" hardware is a tired gimmick and we knew that in the 90s. Server parts are not valid unless you need to scale to multiple CPUs and error correcting RAM (both are redundant in most uses). End of tired crusty discussion.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Apps are pro tools. Apps.

Anything about adopting server components and then calling it "pro" hardware is a tired gimmick and we knew that in the 90s. Server parts are not valid unless you need to scale to multiple CPUs and error correcting RAM (both are redundant in most uses). End of tired crusty discussion.

Thats up to the buyer to decide for themselves. If they really thought a consumer gaming machine was good enough for a work environment we would see a downward spiral of workstations. I just don't see that.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Thats up to the buyer to decide for themselves. If they really thought a consumer gaming machine was good enough for a work environment we would see a downward spiral of workstations. I just don't see that.

Not interested in these excuses. I'll look at app performance instead.

 

[goMac]

I wonder if a Crossfire configuration of D500s would be good enough. Should be more powerful than their minimum.

 

[koyoot]

For single GPU setup - it is required to have at least R9 290.

From compute and graphics side - it would be possible to run Rift on dual D300s. The question is: will it be?

 

[AidenShaw]

For single GPU setup - it is required to have at least R9 290.

From compute and graphics side - it would be possible to run Rift on dual D300s. The question is: will it be?

...but you can't run graphics on dual D300s on Apple OSX.