AMD Radeon R9 M295X Core Clock Throttling, Heat, and Performance

[imacken]

I guess you haven't followed Apple for the last 6-7 years...

2008 MBP 15 Nvidia 8600GT gpu failures - lawsuits then recall
2010 MacBook pro 15 igpu failures
2011 iMac AMD Gpu Heat failures
2011 mbp 15 AMD GPU Heat failures

All of those either required a lawsuit or the filing of one before Apple took care of customers who didn't have AppleCare or it expired

Looking at the list above shows me that if Apple could get away from discrete gpus entirely they would at a moments notice, but it's going to be another 5 years or so before igpus can power a 5k screen well.

Hmmm, interesting. I have followed some of these over the years, and it seems to me that the number of people who had the problems you mentioned are very much in the minority.
I have a 2011 iMac with a 6970 1Gb and have never had a problem even though I play a lot of games.

 

[ChrisKnight]

Thank you, Fenn

I just wanted to say thank you for starting this thread and sharing this data. I read this thread first thing this morning, and was able to cancel the iMac 5k I had ordered for my wife as a birthday present.

It's a sad thing that when Apple was able to reduce the component sizes for the iMac, they prioritized a thin edge over putting a better graphics card in with decent cooling.

Does anyone else think Apple needs to make a 'Mac'? Something in between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro. A small box, quad-core CPU, user upgradable RAM, room for a drive or two, and a freaking real video card. A guy can dream...

 

[Atlantico]

NO! The M295X is an inferior card at 1440p than the GTX 680MX was at 1440p.

Anyone reading this: The M295X is just not good enough. If I hadn't already sold my 2012 iMac with GTX 680MX, I'd probably return this system. Yes, the Retina display is amazing, but next year will probably be a 980M or newer variant, and I'll just sell this iMac.

Apple screwed this one up. I had a feeling they had all along.. *sigh*

What a bunch of goddam Nvidia fanboi whining. If you wanted the inferior 680mx then you shouldn't have sold your old Mac.

The retina iMac with its AMD M295X performs better or equal (depending on the situation) than the 780mx, let alone your old 680mx

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/10/the-retina-imac-and-its-5k-display-as-a-gaming-machine/

 

[Atlantico]

Not correct, 680MX is an underclocked dekstop 680. I can easily overclock the 680MX to match the speed of the desktop 680@default, and it never throttles. That's pretty decent. On the other hand m295x seems to throttle frequently because of overheating, so don't even think about overclocking there. I'm definitely waiting for the next model, as I game quite a bit. As Quu also said, those high GPU temperatures do take a toll on the electronics in the long run.

Nope, the 680MX is a derivative of the 680M which is a derivative (underclocked and gimped) desktop 670.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-GTX-680M.72679.0.html



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I spoke to apple tech expert he said the new iMac graphics is good for media etc
but not gaming fact!

the late iMac 2013 780M 4GB is perfect for gaming

its a shame you can't get the GTX970 or 980 for iMac

but is mind blowing on PC

Good grief, you do realize that the iMac is not now or not ever capable of using desktop GPUs and that the M295X beats or equals the 780M and handles 5K way way *way* better?



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Those GPU temperatures are way too high for long term ownership in my opinion. I've built more gaming systems over the past decade than I can count and when things start going over 85c it's worrying. 100c and you're in the danger zone where the life of the graphics will diminish quickly.

Most desktop systems will actually shut themselves down to stop damage between 105-110c at the GPU die.

Personally I would not run any current generation GPU that includes the 280, 290, 295 and all the latest NVIDIA and AMD cards for that matter above 85c.

Wow, you wouldn't huh? The desktop 290X is made to run at 100c, designed and tested to run at a constant 100c and yet you with all your "expert" knowledge dissent. Huh, well have you ever considered that things change?

 

[habeebhashim]

Update with my i7/M295X iMac for gaming under Win 7 x64;

All games at 2560x1440;

- Tomb Raider, Ultra setting, GPU temp @ ~95c

- Shadows of Mordor, High settings, GPU temp @ ~105c

- Dota 2, High/Ultra, GPU temp @ 85c

- Heroes of Newerth, High/Ultra, GPU temp @ <85c

- Counter Strike: Global Offensive, High, GPU temp @ 95c

- Crysis 3, High settings, GPU temp @ ~105c

Been playing for continuous stretches. Most gaming sessions last for longer than an hour at stretch. TR and SoM lasts even longer.

Ambient room temp @ 24c. The iMac idles at 65c with only 3-5 Chrome tabs open. When gaming, the fans on the iMac kicks in and the temp ramps up... But fan and temp comes down to idle almost immediately after I complete gaming. I don't use headphones.

Whether those temp numbers are excessive/dangerous even, I don't know. Long term effects on the iMac, I don't know.

But what I do know is that gaming (albeit casual) looks and plays awesome with no frame drops.

Just get AppleCare and enjoy the machine.

 

[ChrisKnight]

Wow, you wouldn't huh? The desktop 290X is made to run at 100c, designed and tested to run at a constant 100c and yet you with all your "expert" knowledge dissent. Huh, well have you ever considered that things change?

Would you happen to have a link to operating specs for the M295X?

 

[steve62388]

The iMac idles at 65c with only 3-5 Chrome tabs open.

There is something wrong with Chrome. Somebody else on one of these threads noticed the same behaviour, but when they tried Safari problem solved.

 

[stereotype]

My retina is at ~75°C whith only Chrome open…

 

[habeebhashim]

There is something wrong with Chrome. Somebody else on one of these threads noticed the same behaviour, but when they tried Safari problem solved.

We measured this earlier in another thread... in Win 7, no option of Safari... only Chrome and I'm using the canary x64 build. Not the mainstream 32bit. In OSX, you can see from the link below that Safari is more efficient and cooler than Chrome.

Posting here again for your ref...

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/20296035/

 

[Mac32]

Nope, the 680MX is a derivative of the 680M which is a derivative (underclocked and gimped) desktop 670.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-GTX-680M.72679.0.html

http://gpuboss.com/gpus/GeForce-GTX-680MX-vs-GeForce-GTX-680M

The 680MX has the superior chip. When overclocked 680MX can produce the same performance as GTX680@default, and still more or less operate under 85c.

From Nvidia.com:
"680MX is based on the 28nm GK104 Kepler architecture similar to the GTX 680M, but features more CUDA cores (1536 vs. 1344)"
"GTX 680 GPU Engine Specs: 1536 Cuda Cores"
"GTX 670 GPU Engine Specs: 1344 Cuda Cores"

 

[y-Rex]

Update with my i7/M295X iMac for gaming under Win 7 x64;

All games at 2560x1440;

- Tomb Raider, Ultra setting, GPU temp @ ~95c

- Shadows of Mordor, High settings, GPU temp @ ~105c

- Dota 2, High/Ultra, GPU temp @ 85c

- Heroes of Newerth, High/Ultra, GPU temp @ <85c

- Counter Strike: Global Offensive, High, GPU temp @ 95c

- Crysis 3, High settings, GPU temp @ ~105c

Been playing for continuous stretches. Most gaming sessions last for longer than an hour at stretch. TR and SoM lasts even longer.

Ambient room temp @ 24c. The iMac idles at 65c with only 3-5 Chrome tabs open. When gaming, the fans on the iMac kicks in and the temp ramps up... But fan and temp comes down to idle almost immediately after I complete gaming. I don't use headphones.

Whether those temp numbers are excessive/dangerous even, I don't know. Long term effects on the iMac, I don't know.

But what I do know is that gaming (albeit casual) looks and plays awesome with no frame drops.

Just get AppleCare and enjoy the machine.

So does that mean you're ok with taking the risk of running at those temperatures and risking your imac getting damaged after three years and a bit when your AppleCare runs out?

The thing is not everyone can risk having thier imac fail on them just after AppleCare runs out. After spending £2500 on my imac I would want it to last at least 4 years if not 5. But if you're happy with your imac lasting a minimum of three years then I can see your point.

 

[imacken]

Update with my i7/M295X iMac for gaming under Win 7 x64;

All games at 2560x1440;

- Tomb Raider, Ultra setting, GPU temp @ ~95c

- Shadows of Mordor, High settings, GPU temp @ ~105c

- Dota 2, High/Ultra, GPU temp @ 85c

- Heroes of Newerth, High/Ultra, GPU temp @ <85c

- Counter Strike: Global Offensive, High, GPU temp @ 95c

- Crysis 3, High settings, GPU temp @ ~105c

Been playing for continuous stretches. Most gaming sessions last for longer than an hour at stretch. TR and SoM lasts even longer.

Ambient room temp @ 24c. The iMac idles at 65c with only 3-5 Chrome tabs open. When gaming, the fans on the iMac kicks in and the temp ramps up... But fan and temp comes down to idle almost immediately after I complete gaming. I don't use headphones.

Whether those temp numbers are excessive/dangerous even, I don't know. Long term effects on the iMac, I don't know.

But what I do know is that gaming (albeit casual) looks and plays awesome with no frame drops.

Just get AppleCare and enjoy the machine.

What would be interesting is if you ran TR under OS X and see what differences there are in the temp.

A suggestion is that there is no proper driver for Windows therefore no optimisation.

Try it on OS X and report back.

 

[leenak]

So does that mean you're ok with taking the risk of running at those temperatures and risking your imac getting damaged after three years and a bit when your AppleCare runs out?

The thing is not everyone can risk having thier imac fail on them just after AppleCare runs out. After spending £2500 on my imac I would want it to last at least 4 years if not 5. But if you're happy with your imac lasting a minimum of three years then I can see your point.

You have a few options including selling at year 3. I tend to get a new system every 3 years so my plan is to probably sell it eventually and don't expect to have it beyond 3 years.

 

[coder0000]

would you happen to have a link to operating specs for the m295x?

The temps being quoted are under the operating specs for the M295X. There is a lot of speculation here, very little based on actual fact or knowledge of the part or how the temperatures are being measured.

 

[Serban]

So does that mean you're ok with taking the risk of running at those temperatures and risking your imac getting damaged after three years and a bit when your AppleCare runs out?

The thing is not everyone can risk having thier imac fail on them just after AppleCare runs out. After spending £2500 on my imac I would want it to last at least 4 years if not 5. But if you're happy with your imac lasting a minimum of three years then I can see your point.

If the gpu can last for 1-2 years..this mean it will not fail from the heat

 

[habeebhashim]

So does that mean you're ok with taking the risk of running at those temperatures and risking your imac getting damaged after three years and a bit when your AppleCare runs out?

The thing is not everyone can risk having thier imac fail on them just after AppleCare runs out. After spending £2500 on my imac I would want it to last at least 4 years if not 5. But if you're happy with your imac lasting a minimum of three years then I can see your point.

I've changed all my Macs within 3 years of AppleCare ending.... I found I can get decent resale value that way.

If there is a catastrophic failure within that period, I'm covered. Besides... I'm not really worried about the cost of the machine. Bought this as a business expense and I will be writing it off fully in 3 years... and due to a weird tax benefit... I will be getting back 60% of the value of this business expense as a cash bonus. That's why I spec'd it high as i7/295x/32GB etc.

----------

What would be interesting is if you ran TR under OS X and see what differences there are in the temp.

A suggestion is that there is no proper driver for Windows therefore no optimisation.

Try it on OS X and report back.

Will try it now. Have to download from Steam first.

 

[lssmit02]

I just wanted to say thank you for starting this thread and sharing this data. I read this thread first thing this morning, and was able to cancel the iMac 5k I had ordered for my wife as a birthday present.

It's a sad thing that when Apple was able to reduce the component sizes for the iMac, they prioritized a thin edge over putting a better graphics card in with decent cooling.

Does anyone else think Apple needs to make a 'Mac'? Something in between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro. A small box, quad-core CPU, user upgradable RAM, room for a drive or two, and a freaking real video card. A guy can dream...

Just to post an opposite point of view, I have the i7 R9 M295X, and so far it's run fine for me. Yes, the fans rev up when playing games, but they did that more in my Mac Pro tower. Been playing games at 2560x1440 with no problem (Batman Arkham City mostly) and so far no trouble. The screen is terrific. Sometimes for normal use, I have the display scaled to the next size up (2048 x 1152) to make the fonts bigger, and everything is still clear. What really seals the deal for me, though, is looking at photos. I use Lightroom, and find that my pictures are just so much more vibrant and detailed now (although it's easier to see when they're out of focus!). It really is dramatic. Of course, YMMV, but not all owners of this iMac are disappointed.

 

[habeebhashim]

Ok... going to be midnight here in SG. Going to be groggy and grouchy at work tomorrow.

Anyways... just finished about 15 mins of playing TR under OS X. I found video settings more limited under OS X... under Win 7, there was an Ultimate/Ultra/High/Normal setting. Under OS X, I only found High/Normal and with some extra options such as tessellation, hair detail missing as well...

Benchmark at 2560x1440 under OS X yields 49fps... but most setting are High/Normal. I got about 30fps with Ultimate/Ultra under Win 7.

Previous TR benchie under Win 7 is here;

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/20235324/

Under OS X, the environment didn't look as detailed and rich as under Win 7.... dust motes, pixel smoothing missing or better under Win 7. Textures/skin tones loaded are also sharper/more detailed. AA smoother and more natural looking under Win 7.

Also, even with High/Normal under OS X, when playing the actual game, there was a few places where it looked like it stuttered. So its less detailed and less smooth under OS X.

And now the biggie... the GPU temp as reported by iStat was at 105c. When playing TR under Win 7, I have only seen temp of about 95c. So gaming under OS X sucks vs a bootcamped Win 7.

On the flip side, temp under normal usage is ~60c... and this is with not just a few browser tabs open... this is with a lot of Safari windows/tabs, couple of Numbers sheets, Apple Mail, iCal, iTunes, Parallels with Win 7 VM, etc etc open and running.

 

[y-Rex]

It's the last day I can return my Imac under the 14 day return policy but I can't bring myself to do it. The machine is beautiful and performs excellent with every task I've thrown at it.

The biggest issue is the heat generated by it when playing games even at modest graphic settings. For example Divinity Original Sin the gpu temperature shoots to 102 degrees celsius within minutes playing on ultra settings at 2k. 94 degrees when playing game at 1080p medium graphics. The only way I could get it to a temperature I felt was safe for the graphics card (89 degrees) was to play on low settings at 720p and at this setting the game looks horrible. My solution is to stop playing altogether as I have a ps4 and im not a competitive gamer anyway. I've not seen a performance decrease because of these temperatures but I cannot enjoy a game knowing that my gpu is running at 100 degrees + with the fans running extremely loud.

Just to clarify under normal use of streaming and surfing with about 6 to 7 tabs open the gpu temperature is between 40 to 60 degrees which I think is acceptable.

 

[Alesc]

7 years old of hot GPU

Hi!
First post here...
I've red your posts and your concerns about the temp of the riMac GPU...
My iMac GPU is idling at 74-75°C...

...in my late 2007 iMac (ATI HD 2600), and no problem, he's still alive after 7 years
I don't know how hot it is running when I'm playing, I will check that later.

For me, throttling is an issue, the temp is not.

 

[ChrisKnight]

Of course, YMMV, but not all owners of this iMac are disappointed.

Fair enough, but the only thing my wife uses her current iMac for is gaming. The arstechnica article already covered that gaming at full 5k resolution was out of the question, and given the reported CPU throttling at scaled down resolution it seemed prudent to get her a new standard iMac with the 780 GPU.

 

[AlifTheUnseen]

I just wanted to say thank you for starting this thread and sharing this data. I read this thread first thing this morning, and was able to cancel the iMac 5k I had ordered for my wife as a birthday present.

Indeed, a BIIIIG Thank you to Fenn and all the contributors to this excellent thread. It may help people make a buying decision aware of the technical facts of this machine.

Does anyone else think Apple needs to make a 'Mac'? Something in between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro. A small box, quad-core CPU, user upgradable RAM, room for a drive or two, and a freaking real video card. A guy can dream...

That mythical Mac is called the xMac and is a Apple meme on the internet since a long time… see:
http://arstechnica.com/staff/2005/10/1676/ and http://www.512pixels.net/blog/2013/03/mac-pro-xmac

As Apple failed to fill the obvious gap in their hardware product matrix years over years, the consensus seems to be: Thou shall not speak of the xMac!

 

[apfelmann]

Hi!
First post here...
I've red your posts and your concerns about the temp of the riMac GPU...
My iMac GPU is idling at 74-75°C...

Image

...in my late 2007 iMac (ATI HD 2600), and no problem, he's still alive after 7 years
I don't know how hot it is running when I'm playing, I will check that later.

For me, throttling is an issue, the temp is not.

I also still have the exact same 2007 iMac ... Still running ;-)

 

[magbarn]

I also still have the exact same 2007 iMac ... Still running ;-)

Don't you miss the days of reliable GPU's when they used the proper solder with lead? Lead free solder is the worst POS ever used for electronics: it's brittle and much more likely to stress fracture over time and grow whiskers vs. old school lead solder.

 

[Gav Mack]

I've changed all my Macs within 3 years of AppleCare ending.... I found I can get decent resale value that way.

If there is a catastrophic value within that period, I'm covered. Besides... I'm not really worried about the cost of the machine. Bought this as a business expense and I will be writing it off fully in 3 years... and due to a weird tax benefit... I will be getting back 60% of the value of this business expense as a cash bonus. That's why I spec'd it high as i7/295x/32GB etc.

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Will try it now. Have to download from Steam first.

I have serviced iMac post AppleCare and inside they are always not a pretty sight. Having seen many break down with failed logic boards and GPU due to the heat with hard work doing video all working week during those 3 years I would say you are correct selling before the 3 years are up!

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Don't you miss the days of reliable GPU's when they used the proper solder with lead? Lead free solder is the worst POS ever used for electronics: it's brittle and much more likely to stress fracture over time and grow whiskers vs. old school lead solder.

I would blame the design with a tight thermal envelope, terrible thermal paste and poor heatsink die plate surfaces more than the solder. Repasted and polished die plates they are markedly improved. Though post 2012 repasting is much more difficult and costly with iMac and the glued in screen glass.