And the switch to Windows is on

[killmoms]

AMD's desktop chips are certainly better than the Pentium 4 and its ilk right now. But that's not where Intel will be in 6 months, and I can guarantee you will never see a Mac on store shelves with a Pentium 4 (or other NetBurst-based processor) in it. You'll see Macs based on Conroe/Merom, which will be quite competitive with AMD's offerings, as they do more work per clock (rather than Intel's previous strategy of ramping clock speed to insane levels). And AMD's mobile offerings BLOW compared to Intel's Core Duo/Solo chips. Turion is not a competitor.

Personally, I'm excited by the Intel switch. Macs are more expensive because Apple finances their software with the profits from their software. It's worked for them for years, and I see no reason why it'll change now. People who need Macs will still buy them, those who become convinced the benefits of the Mac are worth the price differential will buy them... so what if our market-share doesn't go up? Apple's survived at every turn when they were supposedly "doomed." I don't see what makes you so much more enlightened that you've seen the true future where all the others before you have been wrong.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I agree with everyone here, the new Mini dissapoints big time with handicapped graphics. Dvorak or whatever his name predicted Intel macs many moons before, now he has predicted window Macs coming.

Even a busted clock is right twice a day. Dvorak did "predict" the move to Intel... he just completely blew the timeframe and the fact that Apple would move to IBM first and that after IBM failed to deliver what Apple needed they would move to Intel.

We all knew Apple would have to ditch Moto and find another CPU supplier so I don't think Dvorak should get the "crystal ball award" for stating the obvious and getting the details wrong.


Lethal

 

[Aramis]

Personally, I'm excited by the Intel switch. Macs are more expensive because Apple finances their software with the profits from their software.

I think you meant finances their software with profits from their hardware - correct?

 

[Chrispy]

Intel chips should mean cheaper Macs. No questions about it.

Folks can rant and rave about the price being for the "experience" all they want - but let's face it: people use computers to get their work done, not to sit down as "one with the computer" and "experience" some technological friendship between man and computer.

Aperture turned out to be a dissapointment. Pages is much the same. And now this?

It seems as if the Macs selling point is shiny graphics and smooth fonts. Besides those things, I see no reason to opt for a Mac any more.

I don't think I'll be selling my PowerMac, but Apple better have something amazing up their sleeve, or Vista+Linux dual-boot is looking mighty appealing.

I could not agree more. Not having support for Adobe CS2 was the killer for me. I have since switched back.. I gave mac a second chance but my PCs were just way faster with CS2 than the Intel Macs can be right now. I think Apple can bounce back but they need software support and cheaper products... period.

 

[whooleytoo]

I think you meant finances their software with profits from their hardware - correct?

More like - Apple finances their balance sheet with profits from their hardware and software. The only software they bundle is OSX and iLife, everything else you have to pay for.

 

[tjwett]

ha, this is awesome. so you have a dual G5 and now suddenly, based on the specs of a lowly mac mini, you're completely switching platforms?!? i don't get it. that's like divorcing your super hot wife because she happens to have an ugly cousin. your loss.

 

[AvSRoCkCO1067]

MCE is an OS all of its own, front row is not. Front row is not centered around any one segment of computers (HTPC), rather it's there as a compliment to an already feature rich OS.

I think the search feature you're referring to is the metadata search feature. And it's not yet guaranteed to be included in vista. Apple does not have a full metadata search implementation last time I checked, spotlight is a patchwork version until 10.5

Eye candy is nice but isn't my main reason for using an OS. And have you seen Vista's new and improved utility bar??? I reall don't know what to make of it other than it'll be an annoyance that I'm glad I don't have to use.

As far as the AMD X2, intel is hot on the heels of it, and while it's not the overall performance king, the P D900 is in no way a slouch. Not to mention intel has one thing AMD does not, and that is a long term roadmap.

Also, last time I checked, AMD does not have any 3rd party motherboards that support dual-dual core configurations. While intel isn't there yet, you can bet that they'll be inside powermacs by no later than the end of the year.

No, I wouldn't go so far as to say MCE is an OS of its own...I mean, seriously, it's Windows Professional with an extra Program. Which sounds familiar...oh, yeah, OS X with Frontrow!

However, I tried out Frontrow at the Mac store the other day, and, although I know it doesn't have PVR capabilities, its UI was much nicer than MCE. It didn't have the 'online services' or 'settings' crap that you really don't need, at least not on the front page...

 

[liquidh2o]

No, I wouldn't go so far as to say MCE is an OS of its own...I mean, seriously, it's Windows Professional with an extra Program. Which sounds familiar...oh, yeah, OS X with Frontrow!

Ok, let's put it this way. I'd like to add MCE to my existing copy of windows XP. Where can I legally download/purchase MCE (the program) to add without repurchasing/reinstalling a new OS?

With Front row it can be had as a seperate downloadable program and afaik is not included w/ retail copies of 10.4 sold on store shelves (yet), nor is a complete reinstall of the OS required.

So to me, yes, MCE is an OS (or as much a version as home/Pro are) all of its own, MS seems to brand and markets it that way as well.

 

[plinden]

Just to note, the "virus" (the harmless, poorly written trojan) that appeared lately affected PPC Macs as well.

You mippselt only.

 

[roxnadz]

Apple is over-confident, and that is entirely due to an unrealistically loyal fanbase.

LOL. It seems like to me that anybody who doesn't jump on the Apple-hatin' bandwagon is an "unrealistic fanboy."

The one thing that makes me raise an eye about today's announcement is the extra C-note you'll have to drop if you want a new mini. I really don't see how integrated graphics is going to kill this new mini...I mean, it is Apple's bargain-basement computer.

What would be nice is to see what the individual components cost, because yes, I believe the price should've remained the same.

 

[Maedus]

The only thing that made the PPC "better" than the x86 was Job's reality distortion field. It was never better, benchmark after benchmark proved this.

When the first PowerPC products reached the market, they were met with enthusiasm. In addition to Apple, both IBM and the Motorola Computer Group offered systems built around the processors. Microsoft created a version of Windows NT for the architecture, which was used in Motorola's PowerPC servers, and Sun Microsystems offered a version of its Solaris OS. IBM ported its AIX Unix and planned a release of OS/2. Throughout the mid-1990s, PowerPC processors achieved Benchmark test scores that matched or exceeded those of the fastest x86 CPUs.

Going to cite me for falling victim to the Wikipedia Reality Distortion Field?

Now for some quick questions with quick answers:

• Is/was the PowerPC the greatest processor architecture on earth? No.
• Did it sometimes outperform x86 CPUs? Yes.
• Did x86 CPUs sometimes outperform PowerPC CPUs? Yes.
• Is/was IBM going to continue developing the PowerPC architecture towards maximum results for personal computing use? Looking at their recent performance, that doesn't look like a priority to them.
• Will Intel? They'll die if they don't.
• Is AMD sometimes faster than Intel? Yes.
• Is Intel sometimes faster than AMD? Yes.
• Do things change over the course of years which may result in one company pulling ahead of the other company only to have the same thing happen to them later down the road? YES!!!!!!!!
• Is Intel the greatest processor company on the planet? No.
• Is AMD the greatest processor company on the planet? No.
• Are either perfect? No.
• Is Apple perfect? No.
• Will Intel chips magically make Apple computers cheaper? Nope.
• Will Apple get better at making x86 based computers as they gain more experience working with the architecture? Yes.
• Did Feb 28th's media event suck? Apparently so.
• Do the new Mac Minis suck? Looks like it.
• Should I ditch a company due to one crappy media event or product? If you do, you're going to be hard pressed to find a replacement since Microsoft has had many as well as many hardware vendors. Guess that leaves you with some flavor of Linux running on build it yourself computer. I suggest adding an extra phone line so you can call yourself for tech support.

 

[Soisauce001]

ROFLOL!!!!! That's great..

Do people whine about the funniest things? YES!
Does Jobs think He's the promised Messiah? To PC world maybe.
Was this a funny post? Maybe?

Going to cite me for falling victim to the Wikipedia Reality Distortion Field?

Now for some quick questions with quick answers:

• Is/was the PowerPC the greatest processor architecture on earth? No.
• Did it sometimes outperform x86 CPUs? Yes.
• Did x86 CPUs sometimes outperform PowerPC CPUs? Yes.
• Is/was IBM going to continue developing the PowerPC architecture towards maximum results for personal computing use? Looking at their recent performance, that doesn't look like a priority to them.
• Will Intel? They'll die if they don't.
• Is AMD sometimes faster than Intel? Yes.
• Is Intel sometimes faster than AMD? Yes.
• Do things change over the course of years which may result in one company pulling ahead of the other company only to have the same thing happen to them later down the road? YES!!!!!!!!
• Is Intel the greatest processor company on the planet? No.
• Is AMD the greatest processor company on the planet? No.
• Are either perfect? No.
• Is Apple perfect? No.
• Will Intel chips magically make Apple computers cheaper? Nope.
• Will Apple get better at making x86 based computers as they gain more experience working with the architecture? Yes.
• Did Feb 28th's media event suck? Apparently so.
• Do the new Mac Minis suck? Looks like it.
• Should I ditch a company due to one crappy media event or product? If you do, you're going to be hard pressed to find a replacement since Microsoft has had many as well as many hardware vendors. Guess that leaves you with some flavor of Linux running on build it yourself computer. I suggest adding an extra phone line so you can call yourself for tech support.

 

[Josh]

Going to cite me for falling victim to the Wikipedia Reality Distortion Field?

Now for some quick questions with quick answers:

• Is/was the PowerPC the greatest processor architecture on earth? No.
• Did it sometimes outperform x86 CPUs? Yes.
• Did x86 CPUs sometimes outperform PowerPC CPUs? Yes.
• Is/was IBM going to continue developing the PowerPC architecture towards maximum results for personal computing use? Looking at their recent performance, that doesn't look like a priority to them.
• Will Intel? They'll die if they don't.
• Is AMD sometimes faster than Intel? Yes.
• Is Intel sometimes faster than AMD? Yes.
• Do things change over the course of years which may result in one company pulling ahead of the other company only to have the same thing happen to them later down the road? YES!!!!!!!!
• Is Intel the greatest processor company on the planet? No.
• Is AMD the greatest processor company on the planet? No.
• Are either perfect? No.
• Is Apple perfect? No.
• Will Intel chips magically make Apple computers cheaper? Nope.
• Will Apple get better at making x86 based computers as they gain more experience working with the architecture? Yes.
• Did Feb 28th's media event suck? Apparently so.
• Do the new Mac Minis suck? Looks like it.
• Should I ditch a company due to one crappy media event or product? If you do, you're going to be hard pressed to find a replacement since Microsoft has had many as well as many hardware vendors. Guess that leaves you with some flavor of Linux running on build it yourself computer. I suggest adding an extra phone line so you can call yourself for tech support.

Quoting Wikipedia is no different than saying "insert name of random forum member says.........so it must be true!"

Wikipedia is a great concept, but its credability is questionable. I could edit that very page and say that the PPC was first built in the jungles of South America. Is that true? No. So who knows what else in there is.

I agree that each system/hardware/etc has a pro and a con, but we're not talking about the 1990s. We're talking about right now, and the current G4/G5's do *not* out perform Intel or AMD, and they haven't done so in the last 6 years either.

And a build-it-yourself system? That's the very best way to go.

I could build a system for $500 (not a penny more) that would DESTROY the mini in benchmarks, and run circles around the iMac, and compete on-par (if not better) than the base model PowerMac.

As far as I'm concerned, the mini is not marketted at the casual home user, it's marketted towards the uneducated, the foolish, and the blind.

If Apple continues, they mode of marketting is going to work its way up the line and saturate the higher end products as well. Before you know it, Apple will be selling $5000 PowerMacs that perform like $900 machines.

People aren't just upset about the mini, they are upset because this may be the another sign as to where Apple is headed. Other products have hinted at it, and now this makes it look even more inevitable. This downward slide in performance, and and upward slide in price, is what has got people upset. And they have every right to be.

 

[Timepass]

People aren't just upset about the mini, they are upset because this may be the another sign as to where Apple is headed. Other products have hinted at it, and now this makes it look even more inevitable. This downward slide in performance, and and upward slide in price, is what has got people upset. And they have every right to be.

I agree. Apple has started down the road of becoming a lot like dell.

Next half is more related to dwd3885 than anything else
As for the first post (of this theard). Yeah you talked youself into circles and you not calling youself a fanboy of anything......UM YEAH RIGHT.

You post was so loaded with being an AMD fanboy. Most of stuff you said was common AMD fanboy stuff. And before you try to hit me on being an intel fanboy I am not. I think AMD chips are a lot better than intel and I like AMD a lot more over intel but I still think intel are good chips but I would not want to use them. My PC is currenting running of an AMD64 3000+ that I built 1.5 years ago and I love it. Great computer.


edit: (too away some of the confusion on who I was calling the AMD fanboy)

 

[godbout]

...snip... I could build a system for $500 (not a penny more) that would DESTROY the mini in benchmarks, and run circles around the iMac, and compete on-par (if not better) than the base model PowerMac... snip...

I am not doubting that you might be able to do that but I just can't see that you can get all that is in a iMac for $500 I mean $250 for the proc and $250 for the monitor... I think that this was a little overstated

 

[GoCubsGo]

Troll or not. I was considering a mac mini to tie me over until the end of the year when I buy a power mac. However, I can't see spending $100 more for integrated graphics. That is what turns me off of compaq, dell, hp and the likes.

The rest...I don't care about for some reason.

 

[cubist]

... Also, last time I checked, AMD does not have any 3rd party motherboards that support dual-dual core configurations. ...

You didn't check very thoroughly. HP sells QUAD dual-core Opteron machines right now, and has been selling them for months. That's EIGHT cores.

Intel may catch up eventually, who knows. I doubt it.

 

[Josh]

I am not doubting that you might be able to do that but I just can't see that you can get all that is in a iMac for $500 I mean $250 for the proc and $250 for the monitor... I think that this was a little overstated.

I never said I could "get all that is an iMac" for $500. I'm only talking about building a computer that would "out perform" based on raw computer power.

However, if you consider that it is possible to build a computer A LOT more powerful for than the iMac for $500 or less, and if you want the same package, all you need is a monitor, you can get one heck of a monitor for $1100. (20" iMac is $1600)

That being said, for about $900, I could build a computer that out performs the iMac and has an equal or nicer sized viewing panel (that's $700 less than the 20" iMac).

That extra $700 can go towards any number of components to better your system: printer(s), surround sound, dual GPU cards, massive amounts of ram, software, you name it.

Any way it's put, you can build a much more powerful system for a lot less than Apple charges for their hardware.

 

[Timepass]

Just because I prefer AMD over Intel does not make me a "fanboy." Considering the only computer I own is a PowerMac G5 makes that even more evident.

A fanboy is one who blindly believes a certain thing is the best in the world, and everything else is trash. I think Intel is great, way better than PPC. But if I was building my own system, I'd go with what I prefer (it is my money, after all), and I prefer AMD.

Having a preference does not make one a fanboy. It makes one human.

I've said no more in favor of AMD than you have; perhaps by your definition you're a fanboy also?

Sorry should of put another quote in my first post. The 2nd half did not related to you. I knew I should of quoted dwd3885. I was calling him an AMD fanboy. Not you. Sorry for miss understanding. I have gone back and edit the last post to have it corrected to who I was talking about being a fanboy. You my friend are not a fanboy or at least are not spitting out the normal AMD fanboy stuff

 

[dwd3885]

when i created this thread, i did not mean for it to be a "apple sells their computers for more than i can build." That's not an issue for me. Sure I'd like to save money, but I'm ok with buying apple refurb, which makes it seem like not a big deal.

my whole point of the thread was that the inclusion of the intel mini with integrated graphics was a sign of things to come from apple. under-specced, over priced, end of the world scenario ;-)

Hoping people could talk me back into sanity, not for it to become an AMD/Intel flame war. I love AMD because they lead in performance. That's all. Does that make me a fanboy? Liking the company that puts out the best chips? Fine then. Apple using Intel doesn't make them all that different anymore than HP/Dell.

 

[Edge100]

that's like divorcing your super hot wife because she happens to have an ugly cousin. your loss.

LOL.

 

[Edge100]

Quoting Wikipedia is no different than saying "insert name of random forum member says.........so it must be true!"

Wikipedia is a great concept, but its credability is questionable. I could edit that very page and say that the PPC was first built in the jungles of South America. Is that true? No. So who knows what else in there is.

Actually, there have been a few independent studies done testing out the "correctness" of Wikipedia vs. other sources such as text encyclopedias like Britannica. It appears that overall, Wikipedia is exactly as accurate as Britannica (http://tinyurl.com/94dro There is a link to the original item as published in Nature in this News.com story)

Not that either should EVER replace primary sources (if I cite either during my Ph.D. thesis defense, I'll get shot down right there!), but both seem to be adequate and reasonably accurate.

 

[Edge100]

I could build a system for $500 (not a penny more) that would DESTROY the mini in benchmarks, and run circles around the iMac, and compete on-par (if not better) than the base model PowerMac.

Ok, lets see it.

What kills me about these arguments is that people have been making them since 1984, telling us how Macs are overpriced and the price/performance ratio is terrible. Yet the Mac's marketshare is growing (http://tinyurl.com/joevo), and the public recognition is on the rise too (due in large part to the iPod).

Apple could do with a price reduction, yes, but the computers they build, compared to Dell or HP, are competitive on price AND power. The proportion of total computer users who build their own is going to be fairly low. So the more fair comparison would be to configure a Dell and a Mac, and see who comes out ahead. I'd bet you that feature-for-feature, dollar-for-dollar, the Dell and the Mac come out about the same. I'd still choose the Mac because the programs I need run on it (Logic), and because OS X is miles ahead of XP. Others may think otherwise.

 

[dwd3885]

Ok, lets see it.

What kills me about these arguments is that people have been making them since 1984, telling us how Macs are overpriced and the price/performance ratio is terrible. Yet the Mac's marketshare is growing (http://tinyurl.com/joevo), and the public recognition is on the rise too (due in large part to the iPod).

Apple could do with a price reduction, yes, but the computers they build, compared to Dell or HP, are competitive on price AND power. The proportion of total computer users who build their own is going to be fairly low. So the more fair comparison would be to configure a Dell and a Mac, and see who comes out ahead. I'd bet you that feature-for-feature, dollar-for-dollar, the Dell and the Mac come out about the same. I'd still choose the Mac because the programs I need run on it (Logic), and because OS X is miles ahead of XP. Others may think otherwise.

right, and i did not want this thread to turn into that. We've heard that argument time and time again. If you can build a pc for less, then DO IT! I'm not complaining about that. Thing is, I like to game, and don't find it necessary to buy a dedicated console just for gaming. I'm thinking about building a very cheap gaming pc and buying a cheap mac (but not the mini!)

What do you think?

 

[aristobrat]

Thing is, I like to game, and don't find it necessary to buy a dedicated console just for gaming. I'm thinking about building a very cheap gaming pc and buying a cheap mac (but not the mini!)

What's the difference between buying a console for gaming and building a very cheap gaming PC?