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HexMonkey

Administrator emeritus
Original poster
Feb 5, 2004
2,240
504
New Zealand
"Hate speech" is ambiguous, as is what is a "reasonable person". These need stricter definitions or run the risk of being abused as blanket terms.

For hate speech: The second, longer sentence is a clarification of what we mean by this.

For reasonable person: It would be impossible for us to foresee all the possible situations that could come up, and even if we could it would probably require a textbook or two to explain how we'd moderate in each of them and would undoubtedly be full of loopholes. Instead, we went for a solution that's been tried and tested in the legal system, using the reasonable person test to make it clear what the intent of the rule is. We can then use our judgement as appropriate, which will involve discussions with multiple staff members in borderline cases and allow us to evolve the nuances of the rule over time as new situations arise (much like case law in the legal system).
 

annk

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 18, 2004
15,208
9,652
Somewhere over the rainbow
"Hate speech" is ambiguous...

For hate speech: The second, longer sentence is a clarification of what we mean by this.

Specifically: "We prohibit discrimination, abuse, threats or prejudice against a particular group, for example based on race, gender, religion or sexual orientation, in a way that a reasonable person would find offensive."
 

bruinsrme

macrumors 604
Oct 26, 2008
7,197
3,063
I'll start off with a disclaimer that the comments below are my interpretation of the rules, but other staff may have different ones. Moderation is a team effort and we often discuss borderline cases and reach a consensus over time.



I'll start off on a general note. Under the new rule, it can apply both to common protected classes like race, gender, religion, etc, as well as other groups like political parties, activist movements, ideologies, etc. The former group is more likely to be classified as hate speech, while the latter is more likely to be group slurs. The former will, on average, be a more serious offence, but the latter is still a violation because it's not constructive to the conversation. If you say "Republicans are all evil" or "Anyone who voted for Hillary Clinton is an idiot", that's not going to do anything to advance whatever argument you're making, will offend other forum members, and will likely take the discussion off topic. Many of these sorts of comments were already covered by other rules, so there's not a significant change here, but more a clarification.

Now, to your specific example. There are probably contexts where it's appropriate to post your opinion on this. But, I would imagine that the majority of contexts would fall under this rule (and previously, other rules in the majority of those). A couple of factors to take into account are a) the term hate group has a specific meaning, that does vary slightly by source, but generally refers to promotion of hostility or violence against other classes of people, where those classes are defined by immutable characteristics such as gender, race, sexual orientation, etc; and b) it's a highly emotive term. The combination of these mean that applying it to a group that doesn't meet the generally accepted definition, or does so only at a stretch, is likely to be contentious and offensive to some. On the other hand, applying it to a group that clearly meets the criteria, such as the KKK, would be fine. Another factor would be why the comment is being made. In most cases, you could make the same argument you're trying to make without comments that are likely to offend others or take the conversation off topic. If the topic itself was about whether a group could or should be classified as a hate group, then it would be on topic, and potentially legitimate to post your opinion there if it advanced the conversation, but - as always - depending on the exact context and how your opinion is expressed.



Again, the context is important, but as a general topic I don't see a problem with this per se - there's legitimate viewpoints on both sides. Making slurs against transgender people within that thread, would, of course, be a violation of the rules.

The inclusion of the words "that a reasonable person would find offensive" in the new rule is quite deliberate. "Reasonable person" is a legal term with a specific meaning. We've included it to show that common sense applies. A single person being offended doesn't mean that your post violates the rules; conversely, your post can violate the rules without everyone or even a majority finding it offensive.

Hope that clarifies things!
If moderators differ In interpretations of posts isn’t that a form of bias?

Personally I like the section. Just because I disagree with much of the liberal agenda, it surely doesn’t mean I don’t like to be challenged or questioned on my views.

But then again my pantries don’t bunch up easily.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,142
25,212
Gotta be in it to win it
If moderators differ In interpretations of posts isn’t that a form of bias?

Personally I like the section. Just because I disagree with much of the liberal agenda, it surely doesn’t mean I don’t like to be challenged or questioned on my views.

But then again my pantries don’t bunch up easily.
If SCOTUS differs in interpretation of law, how are mere mortal moderators and administrators going to get it right?
 

JayMysterio

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2010
1,534
32,961
Rock Ridge, California
If moderators differ In interpretations of posts isn’t that a form of bias?

Personally I like the section. Just because I disagree with much of the liberal agenda, it surely doesn’t mean I don’t like to be challenged or questioned on my views.

But then again my pantries don’t bunch up easily.
It can be seen as a form of bias, but it is one you accept you by participating in the forums I imagine.
 

oneMadRssn

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
6,083
14,193
@HexMonkey Can you folks provide a way to filter out all PRSI posts from the "latest reply" sidebar on the main forum page?

- Lots of people are simply not interested in ever visiting the PRSI forum, yet it is not always easy to know which of the latest replies may be coming from PRSI.
- As someone who was banned from PRSI and have no interest in returning, it would be good if I wasn't presented with links to the PRSI in the latest reply sidebar.
 

annk

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 18, 2004
15,208
9,652
Somewhere over the rainbow
If moderators differ In interpretations of posts isn’t that a form of bias?

That's why it's so important that we discuss before we moderate.

I would argue that differing opinions insure a healthy discussion, as opposed to a discussion atmosphere where everyone always agrees on everything, and is in fact one of the checks and balances against bias. Add to that the transparency about the lack of agreement, and you've got a system that takes bias seriously and does what it can to avoid it, IMO.
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,439
34,275
Texas
So, I got a warning/post deleted for "frivolous post". Does that count as a strike?
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If SCOTUS differs in interpretation of law, how are mere mortal moderators and administrators going to get it right?

Obviously MR Moderators are way higher in terms of wisdom than the Supreme Court!!

All joking aside, I do understand where the mods come from, although it's very difficult sometimes to understand the gray areas. When I was banned I immediately contacted the moderators. I engaged in a few conversations with one of them that lasted a few months, and he was very kind in explaining his point of view. While I explained while I disagreed with the decision - I also had to understand where they were coming from when they banned me. They have to manage thousands of posts, 24 hours a day, on a volunteer basis, and I did enter into one of those gray areas. In retrospect, I could've certainly thought about it.
 

Thomas Veil

macrumors 68030
Feb 14, 2004
2,636
8,862
Much greener pastures
Well, I know I feel there's a little added clarity now that this policy has been announced.

Several months ago I was surprised to get a warning about a post of mine. Now, I almost never get warnings. In fifteen years here, I've probably received, like, five -- and usually for reasons I can understand if not necessarily agree with.

What surprised me about this one was that it was for making a joke post, using a mild term that is (or was) pretty common around here and which still is common in the media in general. I have to confess, my first thought was, "Who took offense to that? We use that term all the time!" But I guess if we're going to be tightening up the use of generalizations about people, even ones meant in a humorous way, it makes a little more sense to me now.

I'm still not that happy about it, but at least I feel it's been explained a little better.

I do wonder, however, if things are going to get duller around here. The more freely people speak, the more entertaining this forum is. I'm not advocating insults meant to hurt or anger, but lighter-hearted ones are part of what make this place lively.

There are those of us who like to discuss policy in-depth. And there are those of us (I am in this group) who have done that duty many, many times over dozens of years in more than one forum. At some point you just get tired of repeating the same old arguments to people who are mostly not interested in listening to them, and you do what I sometimes do -- jot off a short, pithy remark. Brevity being the soul of wit, and all that.

So now, while I do occasionally add arguments of some length where I feel others may have not already made them, I find myself wondering whether there'll be a place here for someone like me who, as often as not, would prefer to express a thought in ten humorous words rather than two hundred serious ones.

With a couple of rare exceptions, this is the first time I've participated anywhere on MR for several months. It's going to be interesting to see what things in PRSI are like now.
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,439
34,275
Texas
Well, I know I feel there's a little added clarity now that this policy has been announced.

Several months ago I was surprised to get a warning about a post of mine. Now, I almost never get warnings. In fifteen years here, I've probably received, like, five -- and usually for reasons I can understand if not necessarily agree with.

What surprised me about this one was that it was for making a joke post, using a mild term that is (or was) pretty common around here and which still is common in the media in general. I have to confess, my first thought was, "Who took offense to that? We use that term all the time!" But I guess if we're going to be tightening up the use of generalizations about people, even ones meant in a humorous way, it makes a little more sense to me now.

I'm still not that happy about it, but at least I feel it's been explained a little better.

I do wonder, however, if things are going to get duller around here. The more freely people speak, the more entertaining this forum is. I'm not advocating insults meant to hurt or anger, but lighter-hearted ones are part of what make this place lively.

There are those of us who like to discuss policy in-depth. And there are those of us (I am in this group) who have done that duty many, many times over dozens of years in more than one forum. At some point you just get tired of repeating the same old arguments to people who are mostly not interested in listening to them, and you do what I sometimes do -- jot off a short, pithy remark. Brevity being the soul of wit, and all that.

So now, while I do occasionally add arguments of some length where I feel others may have not already made them, I find myself wondering whether there'll be a place here for someone like me who, as often as not, would prefer to express a thought in ten humorous words rather than two hundred serious ones.

With a couple of rare exceptions, this is the first time I've participated anywhere on MR for several months. It's going to be interesting to see what things in PRSI are like now.

Good post.
I agree as I am “guilty” of the same. I usually post about policy, and/or actual sources. Often times I try to be as deep as possible in my arguments. However from time to time the irreverent (but never insulting) post happens, maybe as a joke, maybe because someone just doesn’t want to argue like an adult. In the end, those more concerned about PRSI will probably pay the highest price.
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,973
Weird concept of trolling when all one is doing is continuously responding to insistent users.
 

Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
40,077
8,335
Los Angeles
Weird concept of trolling when all one is doing is continuously responding to insistent users.
That's a mis-statement. There's no rule against "responding to insistent users" as long as users aren't trolling themselves.
 

Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
40,077
8,335
Los Angeles
People may not be trolling and still get misjudged.
Anyone who is misjudged should use the Contact form and ask for a review. If it turns out to be a moderation mistake, it'll be corrected. Otherwise, the reasoning will be explained to the user involved.
 
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ginkobiloba

macrumors 6502a
Jul 2, 2007
664
1,836
Paris
Over time, the proportion of moderator time spent in the PRSI forum has greatly increased. Since this forum is not the focus on the site, we discussed options to reduce this workload, including closing the forum completely. In April 2017, we decided to keep the forum open,
Just out of curiosity, what made you decide to keep the PRSI forum open ?
I’ve participated in it sometimes before, but overall i don’t quite see the purpose of it in a website dedicated to all things Apple.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,998
9,976
CT
Just out of curiosity, what made you decide to keep the PRSI forum open ?
I’ve participated in it sometimes before, but overall i don’t quite see the purpose of it in a website dedicated to all things Apple.
Scientists have spent decades trying to find that answer. Maybe someday they will get it.
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I forget how many strikes I have. Is it indicated on ones profile page?
It would be nice if that was listed, right now it feels like entrapment.
 

jerwin

Suspended
Jun 13, 2015
2,895
4,651
It would be nice if that was listed, right now it feels like entrapment.

No, they don't give you a badge, and decorate it with oak leaves for the second attempt. But

This counts as a PRSI strike under the rules.

serves to commemorate the achievement.

In soccer, or basketball, the referee cites players for fouls. In baseball, when you receive strikes, it's most often because the other side's pitcher played especially well, and you did not.
 
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LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,770
36,279
Catskill Mountains
Just out of curiosity, what made you decide to keep the PRSI forum open ?
I’ve participated in it sometimes before, but overall i don’t quite see the purpose of it in a website dedicated to all things Apple.

It's a conspiracy. It works like this: some of the people who post in the comments to articles about Tim Cook are fans of both Apple and of Tim Cook's management of the company, but that attitude, if expressed, often invites comment to the contrary and so lands the comments thread in PRSI because some people think Tim Cook is... political... and not in a good way... so they say so.... which makes them and the thread political enough to get moved somewhere aside from the front page of the forum. PRSI has seemed like a good fit since the reason for moving the thread is because someone politicized it.

So but suddenly right there smack dab in the middle of PRSI is a thread about Apple stuff. Which means even PRSI is about Apple when we get right down to it.

So bottom line the PRSI subforum is valuable in part because without it most threads on the front page about Apple that happen to mention its current CEO might end up in the Wasteland, and despite the sidebars in those threads about the presumed politics of Tim Cook and his fans and non-fans, there's info that just plain Apple fans can use in those threads, and most users might not think to look in the Wasteland section for useful info about Apple. But,,, while they're looking in PRSI, they might also see an ad or two...
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That's a mis-statement. There's no rule against "responding to insistent users" as long as users aren't trolling themselves.

Well we do see some moderator notes inserted into threads like "That's enough bickering..." or "Some posts were removed for bickering" etc. I've bailed on a few threads because I felt someone taking an opposite position to mine was continuing a conversation merely to have the last word in a discussion where it was clear we would not reach some meeting of minds, and that for me to go on might even land me a citation for being provocative, repetitive, trolling etc.

I'll leave aside whether prospects of fetching me such a citation may have been the point of the other party's apparent willingness to go "one more round". It's up to me to look to my own interests and mind my own behavior. Presumably my wish to retain posting privileges should outweigh my desire to "win" some argument that may boil down to irreconcilable opinions anyway.

Usually I figure people are debating in good faith. If I don't think so and we seem at an impasse, then if I do value my posting privileges I should conclude it's sensible for me to leave the thread, once having stated and possibly restated my opinion or cited a reputable source to back up an assertion.

Still, it may be tempting for any posters reaching an apparent impasse on some topic to try to have the last word. And, that's probably why we see these in-line admonitions about bickering once in awhile. It might take awhile for a new member to get a gut feeling about how far to restate or otherwise continue to press an argument that's not moving the dial. So it's good there are a few strikes for stuff like that in PRSI. If we think someone else deserved the strike on a bickering call, well... that's what a contact form is for, if we care enough about the particular case.
 
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