Any German Beta user? Eigentümer:in seen in a screenshot

[axantas]

Today i saw a screenshot of IOS 15 in German showing descriptions like

Eigentümer:in
Bewohner:in

I am aware, that the use of a correct language becomes more and more important. There appears to be a "grammatical gender agreement" for Apple developers. This is absolutely ok, but should be used with a bit of precaution.

Is it true, that from IOS 15 German is "gendered" that way? We do have words with : in the middle?

To all non German speaking reader:esses. There is acually a development going on in German, that a word describing individuals of different gender will be written in both forms - separated by :_;/&%ç*" - whatever sign. So ending up in something like Steward:ess or President:ess or Driver:ess. Forms like StewardEss or Steward_ess are used as well.

There is an accepted generic masculine form - about the same as in English. But this is obviously not the future of German...

One problem in German, words already tend to be a bit long and all kind of expressions can be stitched together in one word. Now we start to stitch male:female together as well, making the language sometimes difficult to read.

Oh: To make it clear in spoken language as well, you will have to make some tiny vocal stop at the :

If Apple indeed will start to do this, my i-devices will all get switched to English immediately...

Interesting: There are almost never words like (German then...) murder:ess, Terrorist:ess or alike. The negative ones are mostly written in the old generic form...

 

[Slartibart]

If Apple indeed will start to do this, my i-devices will all get switched to English immediately...

because you do not support gender equality in language if possible? 🤔😳

 

[axantas]

because you do not support gender equality in language if possible? 🤔😳

This is one of the problems of this development: I DO support it. But if I have to read a text full of words like Benutzer:innen, Eigentümer:innen and alike, I it dist:urbs rea:ding heavily, because, there are no wor:ds like that. As I wrote: Use with precaution. do not smash a decent langu:age with some:thing people:esses cannot read anymore.
There is no : in the middle of a word. Are you German speaking?

BTW: I do speak and write eight languages fluently. I kind of know, what I am talking about. And: Yes, some errors might appear in my English. I am a human:ess only 😉

 

[Slartibart]

This is one of the problems of this development: I DO support it. But if I have to read a text full of words like Benutzer:innen, Eigentümer:innen and alike, I it dist:urbs rea:ding heavily, because, there are no wor:ds like that. As I wrote: Use with precaution. do not smash a decent langu:age with some:thing people:esses cannot read anymore.
There is no : in the middle of a word. Are you German speaking?

because you try to give the impression in your comment above that it is used e.g. in verbs - which it is not, heck not even every nomen is - you do not give the impression that you support it.

If you love e.g. the German language you have to stand up for a gender equitable language. Whatever sign is used, it might be just an emergency solution.

If you love language you look for alternatives… ones which are better… even more precise and/or concise.

It is about the dignity of the persons who feel excluded. For them we look for a language as fair as possible. This does not remove the underlying cause why people feel excluded. But it creates awareness and brings hidden injustice to the surface.

A problem which is not seen, can not be solved.

if you love language you use what is there and might come up with a new proposal or suggestion.

Switching to a different language is nothing of this.

 

[axantas]

I do not want to start a war here. My "examples" are exaggerated (not even existing), as well as the attempt to gender everything in German. As I wrote: With precaution. Mention it. but these : words are no German.

No dignity for all the persons who feel excluded in the English language then.

And just back to the initial question: Do we have these : words all over IOS 15?

 

[Slartibart]

I do not want to start a war here. My "examples" are exaggerated (not even existing), as well as the attempt to gender everything in German. As I wrote: With precaution. Mention it. but these : words are no German.

No dignity for all the persons who feel excluded in the English language then.

And just back to the initial question: Do we have these : words all over IOS 15?

You give the impression that you have at least no idea what’s this about.

Languages are not fixed. There s continuous change. This is not a war. It’s about awareness. It’s at least silly to think language is stationary.

you might asked yourself, what is my problem with an added ”:”.

 

[contacos]

I feel like it is mostly used for job titles so far like instead of just saying "Lehrer" it is now "Lehrer:innen".

In English the use of "They" always throws me off because I am like who are they talking about as in more than one person because as a student in Germany, you are always being taught that they as in "they are" (a group of people) so when I read they in a full sentence I get quite confused when it is actually talking about just one person

 

[DRDR]

It says Freund:innen in "Wo ist?"

 

[shadyman]

This is one of the problems of this development: I DO support it. But if I have to read a text full of words like Benutzer:innen, Eigentümer:innen and alike, I it dist:urbs rea:ding heavily, because, there are no wor:ds like that. As I wrote: Use with precaution. do not smash a decent langu:age with some:thing people:esses cannot read anymore.
There is no : in the middle of a word. Are you German speaking?

BTW: I do speak and write eight languages fluently. I kind of know, what I am talking about. And: Yes, some errors might appear in my English. I am a human:ess only 😉

There are many language scholars who disagree with this way of implementing gender into the German language. And I frankly agree, it completely destroys the nature of the language.

But I guess Apple doesn’t want to be canceled 🤪

 

[IceStormNG]

And I thought I'm the only one that notices that and got bothered by it. Nothing against gender equality, but this way ruins all readability. macOS 12 does the same. Do we now need Binnen-I be gone at the OS level?

 

[axantas]

It says Freund:innen in "Wo ist?"

...which is too long and may overlap a German dialog box and is furthermore wrong. It should be Freund:e:innen to get two correct German words...

Ok, is is that way then...
I am curious, what they do in the Health app with "Arzt" - if there is such an entry. Ä:A:rzt:in.

Furthermore very curious, what Siri will do with these : There are user:s:esses who need to have it read by voice.

I absolutly see the reason, why it is done and I do agree we need awarness, but I honestly see no way how to do it, without ruining the language itself and the readability on a small screen, as you write, IceStormNG.

 

[cmaier]

Today i saw a screenshot of IOS 15 in German showing descriptions like

Eigentümer:in
Bewohner:in

I am aware, that the use of a correct language becomes more and more important. There appears to be a "grammatical gender agreement" for Apple developers. This is absolutely ok, but should be used with a bit of precaution.

Is it true, that from IOS 15 German is "gendered" that way? We do have words with : in the middle?

To all non German speaking reader:esses. There is acually a development going on in German, that a word describing individuals of different gender will be written in both forms - separated by :_;/&%ç*" - whatever sign. So ending up in something like Steward:ess or President:ess or Driver:ess. Forms like StewardEss or Steward_ess are used as well.

There is an accepted generic masculine form - about the same as in English. But this is obviously not the future of German...

One problem in German, words already tend to be a bit long and all kind of expressions can be stitched together in one word. Now we start to stitch male:female together as well, making the language sometimes difficult to read.

Oh: To make it clear in spoken language as well, you will have to make some tiny vocal stop at the :

If Apple indeed will start to do this, my i-devices will all get switched to English immediately...

Interesting: There are almost never words like (German then...) murder:ess, Terrorist:ess or alike. The negative ones are mostly written in the old generic form...

I think this is an improvement. Er oder sie ist Schauspieler oder Schauspielerin can get a bit unwieldy too

 

[cmaier]

...which is too long and may overlap a German dialog box and is furthermore wrong. It should be Freund:e:innen to get two correct German words...

Ok, is is that way then...
I am curious, what they do in the Health app with "Arzt" - if there is such an entry. Ä:A:rzt:in.

Furthermore very curious, what Siri will do with these : There are user:s:esses who need to have it read by voice.

I absolutly see the reason, why it is done and I do agree we need awarness, but I honestly see no way how to do it, without ruining the language itself and the readability on a small screen, as you write, IceStormNG.

I think there is a new sdk where it is supposed to actually handle gender conformance. So what i think is going on is a bug(?) where you are seeing the templates, and it is supposed to figure out which version is ”correct,” but that’s just a guess. Obviously, expressing all forms at once (masculine, feminine, plural of each in some cases) would be pretty hard to read.

 

[axantas]

I think this is an improvement. Er oder sie ist Schauspieler oder Schauspielerin can get a bit unwieldy too

We will get very long words anyway, even if there will be no Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän:innen in IOS15...
Why can't we think like the English...

Oh, that unreadable word is a valid German expression. It means Danubesteamboatdrivingsocietycapitan:esses.
Yes, we may write that in German and it is correct 🤣
...we do not use it that way. It is used as a joke. But it is flawless German.

 

[cmaier]

We will get very long words anyway, even if there will be no Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän:innen in IOS15...
Why can't we think like the English...

Oh, that unreadable word is a valid German expression. It means Danubesteamboatdrivingsocietycapitan:esses.
Yes, we may write that in German and it is correct 🤣
...we do not use it that way. It is used as a joke. But it is flawless German.

Ja es ist deutlisch.

(I can only read german. Can’t write it, can’t speak it, and usually can’t listen to it. It’s been 30 years since I’ve spoken it or heard it, and my brain can’t cope anymore )

 

[axantas]

I am torn between the necessary awareness and a clear language with can not include "everything" in a word and the more I read texts, obeying thes rules strictly, the more I see a lot of the German language going down the drain. Starting with the word (example) Schauspielende (to include every possible gender) versus the old Schauspieler (generic masculinum). Another version for including everything besides the : words.
Schauspielende = right now acting individual / Schauspieler = Individual working as actor/actress.

@ cmaier: German is a difficult language, sometimes incredibly difficult...

 

[cmaier]

I am torn between the necessary awareness and a clear language with can not include "everything" in a word and the more I read texts, obeying thes rules strictly, the more I see a lot of the German language going down the drain. Starting with the word (example) Schauspielende (to include every possible gender) versus the old Schauspieler (generic masculinum). Another version for including everything besides the : words.
Schauspielende = right now acting individual / Schauspieler = Individual working as actor/actress.

@ cmaier: German is a difficult language, sometimes incredibly difficult...

Is Schauspielende used in place of Schauspieler/schauspielerin? Is there anything like that for other gendered nouns? (Kellner, Arzt, Mitbewohner, whatever?)

I never found german too difficult (my family is Austrian and they spoke it, but it was like in a time capsule - they fled to america in the early 1940’s, and only spoke to each other, so anything that happened after that they never learned). But it’s getting more difficult to translate for me because English has changed so much in the last decade or so (with respect to neutralizing gendered nouns) - if I am translating ”Schauspielerin” for my kid, I want to say “actor,” not “actress.” And something like “my friend is an actress” I will always mistranslate to “mein Freund ist Schauspielerin” because I’ll only remember to put the gender in one place - the one place where, in English, we still sometimes have a gendered noun. Just a lot of gender stuff going on in German

 

[shadyman]

Is Schauspielende used in place of Schauspieler/schauspielerin? Is there anything like that for other gendered nouns? (Kellner, Arzt, Mitbewohner, whatever?)

There are some words that can be neutralized by using the „de“-ending.

But your example of „Arzt“ - there is no option of a gender neutral term. It’s whether Arzt (male) or Ärztin (female).

 

[cmaier]

There are some words that can be neutralized by using the „de“-ending.

But your example of „Arzt“ - there is no option of a gender neutral term. It’s whether Arzt (male) or Ärztin (female).

Will be fascinating to see how it evolves.

 

[TimFL1]

I have my old iPhone 7 on 15.0, but I‘ve set my devices to english for over a decade now (I prefer the tight look of english labels + german usually has translation issues during early betas). Will set it to DE later today and browse around different apps / menus to check for occurrences like that and report back.

 

[TimFL1]

Went on a quick deep dive to find occurrences of this:

Settings > Game Center:
„Freund:innen“ and „Mitspieler:innen“ being used everywhere

Health:
„Ehepartner:in“ (in Emergency contacts)
„Freund:innen“ (in sharing explanation)

Find My:
„Freund:in“ (in the help a friend link)

Home:
„Freund:innen“
„Bewohner:in“
„Eigentümer:in“
„Benutzer:innen“
it‘s poorly executed because there are still references to „Mitbewohner“ in the e.g. comment box for a home

I have to say, this is pretty jarring to look at. Thankfully I‘m rocking all my iDevices in english or I‘d probably be really upset about this

 

[IceStormNG]

I wished they would offer two German languages

-> German
-> German Gendered

I find that stuff really hard to read and it somehow distracts me from reading it.

 

[DaSebsch]

I wished they would offer two German languages

-> German
-> German Gendered

I find that stuff really hard to read and it somehow distracts me from reading it.

I totally agree on that. To be honest this way of gendering is just a political decision - for many reasons many people prefer non or, as me, just use words which have not to be gendered (e.g. Student:innen -> Studierende) - this should not be forced on us as a paying user

 

[Jemani]

The German language needs to do away with gendered nouns then entirely. Why is a wig a feminine word? Why is a car neutral and why is a TV set masculine???

 

[nothingtoseehere]

I wished they would offer two German languages

-> German
-> German Gendered

I find that stuff really hard to read and it somehow distracts me from reading it.

I, as a German, agree