Any German Beta user? Eigentümer:in seen in a screenshot

[cmaier]

The German language needs to do away with gendered nouns then entirely. Why is a wig a feminine word? Why is a car neutral and why is a TV set masculine???

Why is girl neutral?

Mostly because German noun genders aren’t really intended to imply a real world gender, but are simply used to determine which set of conjugation words apply.

(Also other Germanic languages which use the same nouns as German change the genders often. Der tsimmer , das Zimmer, etc. It’s not like you cross a border and the room suddenly had a sex change)

 

[IceStormNG]

Why is girl neutral?

Mostly because German noun genders aren’t really intended to imply a real world gender, but are simply used to determine which set of conjugation words apply.

(Also other Germanic languages which use the same nouns as German change the genders often. Der tsimmer , das Zimmer, etc. It’s not like you cross a border and the room suddenly had a sex change)

Psst.. don't let the gender fetishists know that. Or they will come up with even more stuff.

 

[axantas]

Is Schauspielende used in place of Schauspieler/schauspielerin? Is there anything like that for other gendered nouns? (Kellner, Arzt, Mitbewohner, whatever?)

I never found german too difficult (my family is Austrian and they spoke it, but it was like in a time capsule - they fled to america in the early 1940’s, and only spoke to each other, so anything that happened after that they never learned). But it’s getting more difficult to translate for me because English has changed so much in the last decade or so (with respect to neutralizing gendered nouns) - if I am translating ”Schauspielerin” for my kid, I want to say “actor,” not “actress.” And something like “my friend is an actress” I will always mistranslate to “mein Freund ist Schauspielerin” because I’ll only remember to put the gender in one place - the one place where, in English, we still sometimes have a gendered noun. Just a lot of gender stuff going on in German

You just hit the problem 100%...

There are all kind of impossible words. Schauspielende sounds ridiculous and is not yet widely used. AND: if you are just dropping the "actress", you wil get shot, because of not obeying the new gender awarness!


I already saw "Fussgehende" (pedestrian) which effectively means "a pedestrianing person". Furthermore we recently unfortunately have (not talking about the sad fact itself!) a lot of deadly accidents with cyclists, so in "new German" "getötete Radfahrende", which reads "killed persons actually biking"...

 

[Diskutant]

Why is girl neutral?

Because Mädchen is the diminutive of Magd. And diminutive are always "neutral"

Der Hase - Das Häschen
Die Katze - Das Kätzchen

But yes, the grammatical gender doesn't reflect the biological gender at all.
But also the generic masculine gender of words isn't contemporary anymore. It needs to be changed to something neutral, always naming both genders (and with that ignoring other genders) isn't the solution. But it's a first step to change. I guess in a few years we will be at the point where we will have agreed on some neutral form.

 

[NewUsername]

As a Dutchman I find this German obsession very curious. We always say Germany is much more conservative than the Netherlands, but we happily live on with neutral “he”, using masculine job titles and we definitely do not use a singular “they”.

Of course, language changes and Apple is as free to choose its language as you and I are. I don’t think this is the right approach though, using written speech that differs from spoken speech is just elitist. Don’t say “Student” and write “Studierende”, don’t say “Bewohner” and then write “Bewohner:in”, et cetera. But I understand some people find this much more important than I do. Just hoping the movement doesn’t spread to the Netherlands haha.

 

[cmaier]

Because Mädchen is the diminutive of Magd. And diminutive are always "neutral"

Der Hase - Das Häschen
Die Katze - Das Kätzchen

But yes, the grammatical gender doesn't reflect the biological gender at all.
But also the generic masculine gender of words isn't contemporary anymore. It needs to be changed to something neutral, always naming both genders (and with that ignoring other genders) isn't the solution. But it's a first step to change. I guess in a few years we will be at the point where we will have agreed on some neutral form.

(I know that chen is neutral. the point was simply that a female thing in life is not necessarily a “female” word)

And I agree re: change. In english this takes many non-uniform approaches - actress is frowned upon and female actors are actors. Stewards and stewardesses are flight attendants. Etc.

 

[cmaier]

You just hit the problem 100%...

There are all kind of impossible words. Schauspielende sounds ridiculous and is not yet widely used. AND: if you are just dropping the "actress", you wil get shot, because of not obeying the new gender awarness!


I already saw "Fussgehende" (pedestrian) which effectively means "a pedestrianing person". Furthermore we recently unfortunately have (not talking about the sad fact itself!) a lot of deadly accidents with cyclists, so in "new German" "getötete Radfahrende", which reads "killed persons actually biking"...

My experience with english is that many things that sound ridiculous to me nonetheless become the norm.

Took me years to stop my daughter from saying “i did that on accident” instead of “by accident,” but her friends still say it and i hear it jetzt oft im Fernsehen.

 

[seme332]

If I understand OP correctly they have a problem with gendered German language as it sounds weird because they aren’t used to it. They also bring up none existing and totally exaggerated examples that never ever would be real cases. So what’s the point of this thread? I see none, other then complaining about change of the German language for the sake of so many people who felt excluded for such a long time. Please close this thread, it’s ridiculous.

 

[axantas]

If I understand OP correctly they have a problem with gendered German language as it sounds weird because they aren’t used to it. They also bring up none existing and totally exaggerated examples that never ever would be real cases. So what’s the point of this thread? I see none, other then complaining about change of the German language for the sake of so many people who felt excluded for such a long time. Please close this thread, it’s ridiculous.

It is not about "not being used to it". Id DO use appropriate gender talk all day being aware of and including the person I am talking or writing to. But it is not duable, in every word including everybody everytime in every possible situation or sentence.

BTW: as I already wrote. We are obviously not allowed to talk about that, because one does not have to talk about it and just obeying the new gender law. Why should we stop talking about it? Because you do not want us to talk about it? There are countries with dictators who do that. You start by calling it ridiculous and demanding the closure of this thread...

BTW2: The Swiss Government just released some rules about gender talk in official papers - kind of the same direction as the French did short time ago.

 

[seme332]

It is not about "not being used to it". Id DO use appropriate gender talk all day being aware of and including the person I am talking or writing to. But it is not duable, in every word including everybody everytime in every possible situation or sentence.

BTW: as I already wrote. We are obviously not allowed to talk about that, because one does not have to talk about it and just obeying the new gender law. Why should we stop talking about it? Because you do not want us to talk about it? There are countries with dictators who do that. You start by calling it ridiculous and demanding the closure of this thread...

BTW2: The Swiss Government just released some rules about gender talk in official papers - kind of the same direction as the French did short time ago.

Nobody expects you to do so in every word and every sentence. There is a clear guidance around this in the German language. The system should apply only if the gender of the subject in question is not known or should be neutral. If you for example know that the person you‘re talking about is male/female, then don’t gender. Example: „Der Mitarbeiter erhält einen Bonus.“ If you know said „Mitarbeiter“ is male, use the male version. But if the gender is not known, or the sentence should apply to a more broad range of people, then use as follows: „Mitarbeiter:innen erhalten einen Bonus.“.

It’s as easy as that, and just involves minor careful thinking.

Also: Me asking for the closure of this thread has absolutely no relation to any dictatorship. I’m merely suggesting that a thread with no point and no valid arguments can and should be closed.

 

[axantas]

Nobody expects you to do so in every word and every sentence. There is a clear guidance around this in the German language. The system should apply only if the gender of the subject in question is not known or should be neutral. If you for example know that the person you‘re talking about is male/female, then don’t gender. Example: „Der Mitarbeiter erhält einen Bonus.“ If you know said „Mitarbeiter“ is male, use the male version. But if the gender is not known, or the sentence should apply to a more broad range of people, then use as follows: „Mitarbeiter:innen erhalten einen Bonus.“.

It’s as easy as that, and just involves minor careful thinking.

Also: Me asking for the closure of this thread has absolutely no relation to any dictatorship. I’m merely suggesting that a thread with no point and no valid arguments can and should be closed.

For the Bonus there is even a better solution that works perfectly: Angestellte erhalten einen Bonus. Voilà.
What I mean: We should try to find creative solutions without writing unreadable words.

Another example: Do read the German Maclife. They started to gender everything by talking about soft- or hardware focusing on the users. "Benutzer:innen können mit der neuen, schnellen SSD die tägliche Datensicherung erledigen". Other solution, that focuses on technical stuff. "Die neue, schnelle SSD eignet sich für die tägliche Datensicherung".

As for the valid arguments: I think I have valid arguments and I am allowed to do that. You might think about, just not reading that thread. There is another thread in the Apple-Watch section: If you do not want to wrap an ugly thing of plastic around the watch, don't do it and stay out of the discussion. 😉

 

[Slartibart]

BTW: as I already wrote. We are obviously not allowed to talk about that, because one does not have to talk about it and just obeying the new gender law. Why should we stop talking about it? Because you do not want us to talk about it? There are countries with dictators who do that. You start by calling it ridiculous and demanding the closure of this thread...

If someone has a different opinion than you personally, doesn’t mean that you are not allowed to voice your own. This happens in democratic discourse. Did what @seme332 said impede you from further comments? Crying foul and making a reference to dictatorship in the face of a different opinion is… well… back to the subject:

using the “generic” femininity could be an option (apparently there is a “Lehrer” in every “Lehrerin”), but it might interfere with the fragile masculinity of some. Then again it is not completely sufficient.

It is about acknowledgement and visibility, don’t you agree? If so, you have some meaningful proposal to contribute?

 

[axantas]

I did not demand to close the "useless" thread. that was someone else here...

It is about finding creative solutions. Calling myself "Lehrerin" as a male is simply not understood the way we want to have it understood, even if "Lehrer" is included. Being a woman, calling myself "Lehrer" does not create any reaction. The male "Lehrerin" is suspected to appear next time in womans clothes and will not get the job for sure...

Being gay myself there is neither "fragile masculinity" nor lacking "awareness" of my own personality, but my future boss and the parents of my future pupils will certainely NOT accept me as generic female "Lehrerin" at all. Even if I will appear as a 100% male.

It is about discussing it, being creative and not just placing : everywhere or forcing a "generic female", which is not existing and NOT accepted.

 

[axantas]

As a Dutchman I find this German obsession very curious. We always say Germany is much more conservative than the Netherlands, but we happily live on with neutral “he”, using masculine job titles and we definitely do not use a singular “they”.

Of course, language changes and Apple is as free to choose its language as you and I are. I don’t think this is the right approach though, using written speech that differs from spoken speech is just elitist. Don’t say “Student” and write “Studierende”, don’t say “Bewohner” and then write “Bewohner:in”, et cetera. But I understand some people find this much more important than I do. Just hoping the movement doesn’t spread to the Netherlands haha.

Just pay attention, you Dutchman: Dat verschil moet je hier ook horen.. (sorry: you even need to hear that difference)
Do'nt you just pronounce it "Bewohnerin" because this is just the female part. To include every possible gender, you have to go for "Bewohner in" - just pronounce the gap marking it with a little guttural "pause". It is is more complicated than you think. En ik zou het hoog op prijs stellen, als dat niet de grens overstapt...

 

[cmaier]

. But if the gender is not known, or the sentence should apply to a more broad range of people, then use as follows: „Mitarbeiter:innen erhalten einen Bonus.“.

As someone who is not used to that convention, that doesn’t mean that plural employees are receiving a bonus?

 

[axantas]

As someone who is not used to that convention, that doesn’t mean that plural employees are receiving a bonus?

It works with "Mitarbeiter" as this is male singular and plural and generic masculinum plural. Adding :innen adds all the female ones.

It does not work at all with for example (Friends...) Freund:innen, as "Freund" is only one and :innen are multiple. So then it should be Freund:e:innen to be correct, without completely disregarding multiple male Friends.
Freunde = generic masculinum or just male
Freundinnen = just female

 

[cmaier]

It works with "Mitarbeiter" as this is male singular and plural and generic masculinum plural. Adding :innen adds all the female ones.

It does not work at all with for example (Friends...) Freund:innen, as "Freund" is only one and :innen are multiple. So then it should be Freund:e:innen to be correct, without completely disregarding multiple male Friends.
Freunde = generic masculinum or just male
Freundinnen = just female

Yeah, this is why I find it very confusing. If i wanted to say “one and only one employee of unknown gender received a bonus,” adding :innen confuses me. But German is my second or third language, so maybe it is all clearer to native speakers.

 

[IceStormNG]

Yeah, this is why I find it very confusing. If i wanted to say “one and only one employee of unknown gender received a bonus,” adding :innen confuses me. But German is my second or third language, so maybe it is all clearer to native speakers.

Actually.. this also confuses Germans. My main problem is that the whole "gender language" stuff isn't really clear yet. They're still not 100% sure how to do it and change things every now and then. That's why Apple might should wait a bit until this is set in stone and something is official. Right now it's just... everyone does what they think is right.

 

[chucker23n1]

I think this is an improvement. Er oder sie ist Schauspieler oder Schauspielerin can get a bit unwieldy too

I kind of like the US trend of avoiding the word "actress" and just saying "actor" for every gender. That doesn't seem to be where German is heading, though; there's simply too much historical baggage of associating the unmodified form with "masculine" (for a variety of reasons), and we kind of hack around it either by adding a suffix like ":in" or "*in" etc. to make inclusiveness explicit, or we form a gerund.

E.g., Studenten / Studentinnen becomes Student:innen, Student*innen or Studierende.

It IMHO isn't ideal, but also, I do understand the problem they're trying to solve.

(Does iOS 15 do this? I don't think so. I think this is a misread of optional new grammar features.)

 

[chucker23n1]

The German language needs to do away with gendered nouns then entirely. Why is a wig a feminine word? Why is a car neutral and why is a TV set masculine???

It's particularly fun when, across languages, they aren't even consistent.

It's die Gruppe (feminine) in German, but le groupe (masculine) in French.

And… just the head alone is absurd. Der Mund, Kopf, Hals, die Nase, Lippe, Wange, das Auge, Ohr, Kinn, Haar.

 

[IceStormNG]

E.g., Studenten / Studentinnen becomes Student:innen, Student*innen or Studierende.

It IMHO isn't ideal, but also, I do understand the problem they're trying to solve.

(Does iOS 15 do this? I don't think so. I think this is a misread of optional new grammar features.)

iOS 15 does the one I marked bold in the quote. macOS 12 also does that.

 

[chucker23n1]

iOS 15 does the one I marked bold in the quote. macOS 12 also does that.

Screenshot?

 

[Diskutant]

Screenshot?

Uhm, this thread was started because iOS 15 and macOS 12 do that.

 

[Alwis]

Languages are not fixed. There s continuous change. This is not a war. It’s about awareness. It’s at least silly to think language is stationary.

Yes, languages evolve, but gradually over time and not imposed by someone who thinks he nows better. We had this in the 90ties where some sort of committee thought they would know better. This has ruined some aspects of the German language up until today.

The most important task for a language is to convey information, everything that makes reading harder contradicts this goal and should be considered very carefully. Currently using some sort of gender ":" or "*" is just wrong German it makes it much harder to read and comprehend texts, probably even more for a none native speaker. Beside that, it is just wrong to equate gender in grammar and natural gender, this should have been taught back in school.

Here in Germany the fast (silent) majority rejects using some sort of "gender neutral" language, including all the woman I know. So I do not think, that Apple should impose it on its customers. It is first of all political statement which in itself excludes the majority of people in Germany at the current time.

And if gender neutrality really would improve equal rights, the situation should be much better in countries using languages without a gender in the grammar. There are enough examples showing, that this is simply not the case.

If Apple thinks, this is the way to go I will reconsider using Apple Devices.

 

[Alwis]

E.g., Studenten / Studentinnen becomes Student:innen, Student*innen or Studierende.

But "Studenten" and "Studierende" are not exactly the same. A "Student" or "Studentin" is someone, who is enrolled in a university, "Studierende" are people how are actual studying, regardless if enrolled in a University or not. And not every "Student" is a "Studierender" at any time, sometimes, they sleep or go to a pub.

Maybe this sound constructed and in most cases of the above example you could probably guess the meaning from the context. But my point is, that the language looses is subtle nuances.