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mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
I really think you guys just saw powermetrics readings, that list CPU and GPU at mW at idle while DRAM show 1W and made up a theory, like that AnandTech writer who couldn't add the numbers.

Like right now, I'm running Valley, in powermetrics package power 16W, CPU 3.5 W, GPU 3W, DRAM 3W, while total system power shown in iStatMenu (which I believe - corresponds to better drain) shows 33W. It's got to be the memory right, the difference between package and total. 3W on GPU while generating landscape at 100 fps is totally legit.

BTW - the memory bandwidth is earth shattering 30GB/s, half reads, half writes.That looks reasonable.
I really think you aren't reading what I'm writing. I said nothing to you about powermetrics. I've been trying to tell you about alternate explanations for system behavior which occur to me because I actually have professional experience in designing pieces of SoCs (not Apple's, for what it's worth). You seem fixated on thinking all results showing a Max with worse battery life must be explained by the GPU, and invent all kinds of excuses to avoid thinking about other reasons.

Power gating is a real technology which SoC architects use extensively because leakage (constant background power draw in any powered circuit which is independent of clock frequency and switching rate) is real. If all blocks in a giant, complex SoC like M1 Pro or Max were allowed to remain powered on at all times, leakage power would destroy battery life.

That is why I'm guessing Apple power gates a bunch of GPU cores while the GPU is less than fully utilized. But this "guess" is a bit like "guessing" that water is wet; it would be shocking if they aren't applying the most effective power-saving tool in the box.

That is why I keep trying to tell you the large GPU isn't likely to be the root cause of worse battery life on M1 Max in loads where the GPU is not in use. The far more likely cause of across-the-board higher power in M1 Max is the circuitry which has to stay on regardless of activity - such as the two extra LPDDR5 packages and their I/O.

P.S. powermetrics is likely to be highly accurate, but it only reports power sensors for on-die SoC blocks. There's a ton of power sinks in the computer it doesn't measure. The two likely to be relevant to your test are the display backlight and the DRAM. Did you do any testing to figure out how much power the backlight seems to consume? At the setting you were using during your Unigine Valley test? And since it's a zoned backlight which will draw more power for bright images, did you make sure to try both mostly-dark and mostly-bright images to explore that variable?

I bet if you take the time to investigate and subtract display power from system power, you'll discover the leftover discrepancy between that figure and powermetrics-reported "Package power" is small enough to plausibly be miscellaneous components on the motherboard plus the memory.
 

Thysanoptera

macrumors 6502a
Jun 12, 2018
910
873
Pittsburgh, PA
You seem fixated on thinking all results showing a Max with worse battery life must be explained by the GPU, and invent all kinds of excuses to avoid thinking about other reasons.
Just like you are on memory. Look, you gave me some homework, I started looking into this subject and it's a rabbit hole I don't really wanna go to. You can get an easy PhD just by proposing some model of DRAM power consumption and I've found a paper showing that published Micron power model was off by a factor of 5. I'm out. I'm getting a new racing rig together, have some ddr4 8 and 16GB sticks, might do some power tests between them in different configurations, but then - is this really related to what Apple is doing?

It's funny you mentioned screen, because I was actually taking power metrics readings over remote ssh connection with the screen off (I mean, with brightness to zero). Going from 0 to 100% was like 7W, changing total power reported by a factor of 2-3, and the single most infuential power component. Didn't look at fald though, distribution of dark/bright zones. The difference between power metrics to actual power was still much higher than that and I just don't believe CPU and GPU power is in single/double digits mW at idle or that memory bandwidth has any substantial influence on battery life at near idle conditions, where its utilization is minimal.
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
It seems like the 32 core and 24 core max have very similar battery life due to the latter's inferior binning.

Huh? The 24-core is binned, sure, but how is it inferior to other kinds if binning? The binned cores should be inactive and not consuming any power, so I would hope to see less power usage on the 24 vs the 32.
 
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PeterJP

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2012
1,136
896
Leuven, Belgium
So for me, the needle is shifting back toward the 24-core M1 Max...

Has anyone else changed their opinion after seeing recent reviews?
I was considering charging my order to an M1Pro away from the current M1Max 10/24 32/2TB I have in order now. But your analysis is similar to mine. I’m mostly at a desk anyway. And seen that I got a base spec 13” in 2014 thinking I didn’t need more but then ended up doing pretty heavy development, I see the advantage of slightly overspec’ing now with a small trade-off in battery life. I never know what I’ll be doing next so this time, I’m preparingg for the unexpected.
 
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m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
No you are just flat out wrong!! I have an HP Spectre 15.6" with an i7 1165G7 and 16gb ram with 512gb ssd and just turning it on the fans are spinning. Doing anything that taxes the system at all the fans come on. Also heat is a huge issue as the laptop heats up fast if vents are blocked and there are two fans, heat pipes and lots of vents so cooling is actually really good yet it still heats up fast and fans are on a lot of the time.

Compare that to the base model MBP 16" and I have yet to hear the fans come on at all. I can run several programs at the same time including stress testing and benchmarking and NO fans at all at least I don't feel any air moving and when I put my ear right next to the vents on the MBP I hear nothing?? On my Windows 11 pro system with specs above just browsing will set the fans on high.

Now maybe you don't heart your fans because you have it on silent setting or balanced. If you were to change to high performance you would hear fans more I am sure.

Either way I know that if you put the two machines side by side-your G5 against a new 14 or 16" MBP doing the same tasks the MBP will be silent and barely break a sweat and the G5 will struggle if both are under heavy load. The M1 Pro does get warm on my lap when pushing it but never hot and I have yet to hear the fans.

In this case with these new MBP Apple under sold them. Most of their claims are true even GPU if you are using software that can use all the accelerators and M1 native software. This is the one time where Apple has outclassed Windows machines in almost every way. Give me a metric on a Laptop- sound, screen, performance, stability, build quality, battery life, performance on battery, and even cost when compared to similar specced machines and Apple wins. This is coming from someone who has had a lot of Intel/AMD Windows based laptops/desktops over the years and has used Windows as the primary OS for many years. There simply is nothing like these new MacBooks.
Uh no, I am not. I can't speak to the Spectre 15.6" but it's not a Z-Book. As for the second highlighted statement my response was to the following:

"even when doing nothing"​

Which is not the same thing as "under heavy load"
 

m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
I have a Zbook right next to me. It barely lasts half as long as my 14" MacBook Pro with the same tasks, the fans are constantly on and in fact, they go crazy whenever I start a build in IntelliJ, and I don't even want to have to mention heat.

The 14" is... silent. As in the fan is not even on, or if it is, it's lower than ambient noise (27dB in my office). So with my workflow, the 14" is faster, quieter, and longer-lasting than the Zbook. Sorry to say.

This is a Zbook G6 with i7 9850H, 32GB RAM by the way. Versus the 14" MacBook Pro with only 16GB RAM.
What part of "even when doing nothing" is giving people an issue? You keep talking about noise under load when the part of the post I was responding to was "even when doing nothing" nor was I making any argument related to battery life (which I assume is what was meant with the comment of "It barely lasts half as long")
 

m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
What CPU does your Z-Book use? Recent Intel i9 will burst to 40-50W practically on any occasion. Laptop brand doesn’t matter. Now, if you are using a CPU with more reasonable config, you might not notice anything like that. But of course, there will be a difference in performance.
A Core i7-8850H
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,638
Indonesia
So after all the (very useful) comments in the thread I started, have we been able to reach any kind of conclusion?

Some more recent comparisons from YouTube channels "Luke Miani" and "Created Tech" show the M1 Max using more battery even when not pushing the GPU hard (e.g. Cinebench or "light usage"). Of course, it's impossible to extrapolate the behaviour for every possible usage type, which is why we have such diverse results.

Comparing the 16-core M1 Pro and the 24-core M1 Max in the 14", the rough consensus seems to be that:

1) For the same workloads, even non-GPU heavy, the M1 Max gets 5-10% less battery life.

2) The M1 Pro 16-core can get between 7-10 hours of "light usage" - although some users report getting more. From this let's assume in the worst case that an M1 Max is 7-7.5 hours of "light use" - I'm taking this to include a mix of web-browsing, reading/writing documents, consuming streaming media (audio/video), some video conferencing (maybe an hour?)

3) Really heavy use (e.g. video export) seems to hit the battery much harder with maybe only 1.5-3 hours unplugged (TheUnlockr YT channel showed about 1.3% battery use *per minute* during a FinalCutPro export )

4) The 24-core M1 Max is significantly faster *in some tasks* that make use of the GPU cores. Some gains are only a few % - others (for video processing) are about 20-30%, and some render/exports seem to get larger improvements.

5) There may not be much improvement going from 24 cores to 32 cores on the MBP14 - but I'd like to see some actual test results here.

So I'm going to modfify my initial hypothesis that the M1 Max is going "too far". I think it's nice to have the option, and it will be useful for some workloads, at the cost of somewhat reduced battery life for all workloads.

I'm trying to take a realistic view of my own usage to make a decision between these two, based on the following criteria:

i) How much will I really need to use the machine away from AC power? -> probably only for a few hours at a time (travelling, at meetings, on the couch), and not all-day. I doubt would be doing high-intensity work when unplugged. For longer periods (e.g. long-haul flights with no power sockets), low-power mode should be enough to get 10 hours use.

ii) How often would I use the M1 Max's capabilities? -> it does seem to have some advantages to most stages of video editing working, even playback and scrubbing, and is usefully faster for rendering and exporting. I suspect the difference to the M1 Pro would become more apparent with more complex timelines. For development (my day job), it has a useful performance improvement for some tasks, and is "nice to have"

iii) Will heat and fan noise be a problem? -> I dislike this on my Intel MBP16, but it doesn't appear to be a big problem in normal use, and the consensus seems to be that the fans only ramp up under heavy load, and are not noticeable under light loads (even if they are faster on the Max vs the Pro).

So for me, the needle is shifting back toward the 24-core M1 Max...

Has anyone else changed their opinion after seeing recent reviews?
If battery life and fan noise are important, get the Macbook Air. It has longer battery life than the new Macbook Pros, and fanless.

I'm guessing the M1 Max has less battery longevity than the M1 Pro due to having more performance cores. As more of those fired up, more power is needed.

I think in the end, these new Macbook Pros are intended for workstation laptops/desktop replacements. They are still far better than the previous intel models in terms of performance and efficiency, but that's not the main focus. Apple's segmentation is very clear. Majority of people would be well-served by the Macbook Air.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,678
A Core i7-8850H

Ah, well, that is a pretty much neutered SKU compared to Intel's top range, so I am not surprised that you don't observe the fun power peaks one gets with more premium processors. Your i7 is locked at top 4.3ghz which Coffee Lake can maintain at ~ 10-15W per core. Not like 25+W it needs for the ~5ghz with the i9 SKUs. That can easily be a factor of 2-3x power consumption difference for burst workloads.
 

m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
Ah, well, that is a pretty much neutered SKU compared to Intel's top range, so I am not surprised that you don't observe the fun power peaks one gets with more premium processors. Your i7 is locked at top 4.3ghz which Coffee Lake can maintain at ~ 10-15W per core. Not like 25+W it needs for the ~5ghz with the i9 SKUs. That can easily be a factor of 2-3x power consumption difference for burst workloads.
That may be but it has nothing to do with the false claim that (wrt mobile workstations of which my Z-Book Studio is):


My Z-Book is sitting right next to me doing nothing and there's no heat or noise issue. It's nice and cool and quiet.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,678
That may be but it has nothing to do with the false claim that (wrt mobile workstations of which my Z-Book Studio is):


My Z-Book is sitting right next to me doing nothing and there's no heat or noise issue. It's nice and cool and quiet.

I was referring to high-end CPUs used in workstations, such as Intel i9 series (or comparable Xeons). Your laptop does not use a high-end CPU. At ~ 4 ghz these CPUs have very sane thermal behavior, but then Intel could not claim that they are first-in class performance.

P.S. My i9 draws over 50W of power when opening a file (!!!).
 
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m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
I was referring to high-end CPUs used in workstations, such as Intel i9 series (or comparable Xeons). Your laptop does not use a high-end CPU. At ~ 4 ghz these CPUs have very sane thermal behavior, but then Intel could not claim that they are first-in class performance.

P.S. My i9 draws over 50W of power when opening a file (!!!).
I don't care what you were referring to. The post > I < was responding to said:


I take issue with that statement because the mobile workstation I have, a Z-Book Studio, is cool and quite when doing many tasks not to mention when it's idle.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
I don't care what you were referring to. The post > I < was responding to said:


I take issue with that statement because the mobile workstation I have, a Z-Book Studio, is cool and quite when doing many tasks not to mention when it's idle.

Then allow me to respectfully disagree with you. This thing next to my MacBook is not cool or quiet even when it's literally doing nothing.

The fan is buzzing at 33dB while under 14% load (mostly due to Task Manager) in a room that's 26dB ambient. As soon as any load starts, it'll whoosh up like crazy. Meanwhile, the MacBook's fan is completely off right now.

Edit: also it is much warmer/hotter compared to the 14", which is cool to the touch. Also note that the chip is very boost-happy. It always wants to boost to 4GHz even when there's really nothing that needs that.

IMG_4550.jpg
 
Last edited:

Technerd108

macrumors 68040
Oct 24, 2021
3,062
4,313
A Core i7-8850H
That thing
I don't care what you were referring to. The post > I < was responding to said:


I take issue with that statement because the mobile workstation I have, a Z-Book Studio, is cool and quite when doing many tasks not to mention when it's idle.
I am very familiar with the i7-8850H and there is NO WAY that processor is silent at idle! There is no way that it is silent while doing nothing. Now that states,ent doesn't mean that the fans are running full blast all the time.

What it means in the proper context is that you can be doing next to nothing and the fans will run. There is no particular reason for it. You have a gaming processor that runs very hot-coffee lake- and you can't tell me the fans don't run a lot of the time seemingly when doing very menial tasks. I have had several gaming laptops with that series of processor and none of them were quiet!!

So as I said before maybe you have your setting dialed down or maybe you have a really great cooling system that allows the fans not to run that much but the points that Intel processors-ALL OF THEM- run the fans while doing very simple tasks WHILE the M1 Pro/Max you can be running several seriously intensive tasks at the same time and you won't even hear the fans kick on. I put my ear to the vents during a stress test and nothing.

Now if I were to compare that to past gaming rigs with a 14nm coffee lake processor with 6 cores and your are talking heat and when you have heat you have fans. My new Intel 10nm super fin tiger lake non gaming i7 1165G7 mobile processor which I like a lot runs the fans A LOT. This is just browsing on Edge with one tab open. This is just opening mail or other similar small tasks and the fans will run. Not for long but they run. If I run Geekbench 5 then at the end the fans are at full speed. Same test on my M1 Pro and nothing??

SO I don't know how you are doing it? Why your machine is silent while every Intel laptop I have had and I have had a lot runs the fans even some times at idle. While the M1 Pro never runs fans unless under extreme conditions.

So take an issue with the statement but I think most people will agree that Intel processors give heat and noise doing nothing. That is an exaggeration and should read Intel Processors give heat and noise doing next to nothing!!!!

I really hope Intel can get their process node fixed because once they get on a better node then it is possible this behavior will change a bit. The new Alder lake architecture is a move in the right direction but Intel has a way to go until they get their thermals down. Even AMD Ryzen 5th gen mobile 7nm runs significantly cooler and has better battery life. It is not close to M1 Pro but still better.

I really don't know how you can argue that Intel brings on the heat and noise along with their performance. Look at the new Alder Lake chips. They are drawing tons of wattage and I bet the laptop chips will run hotter than tiger lake so I don't see the heat and noise problem going away any time soon.
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
11,296
Then allow me to respectfully disagree with you. This thing next to my MacBook is not cool or quiet even when it's literally doing nothing.

The fan is buzzing at 33dB while under 14% load (mostly due to Task Manager) in a room that's 26dB ambient. As soon as any load starts, it'll whoosh up like crazy. Meanwhile, the MacBook's fan is completely off right now.

Edit: also it is much warmer/hotter compared to the 14", which is cool to the touch. Also note that the chip is very boost-happy. It always wants to boost to 4GHz even when there's really nothing that needs that.

View attachment 1911070

Of course it's running hot since you're blocking the vents underneath. Also, toggle off turbo boost when not needed if preferring lower temps.

https://www.geeks3d.com/dl/show/10060

My Legion Slim 7 is silent in 'quiet' mode but still has double the total compute performance of MBA M1 so equivalent to M1 Pro.
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
Of course it's running hot since you're blocking the vents underneath. Also, toggle off turbo boost when not needed if preferring lower temps.

https://www.geeks3d.com/dl/show/10060

There are also vents along the display hinge of this Zbook.

Also, why do I have to do special tweaks and disable Turbo Boost just to get the computer to be quiet and less warm/hot? I certainly didn't have to do anything special with M1 Pro MacBook. It just works.

My Legion Slim 7 is silent in 'quiet' mode but still has double the total compute performance of MBA M1 so equivalent to M1 Pro.

Double in which benchmark? I'm fairly certain the AMD 5800H is not double the performance of M1 in everything. M1 matches it and M1 Pro cleanly beats it in everything except for perhaps Cinebench, but Cinebench doesn't even use SIMD instructions on ARM processors so the performance loss is quite significant for M1 and M1 Pro.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,678
I don't care what you were referring to. The post > I < was responding to said:


I take issue with that statement because the mobile workstation I have, a Z-Book Studio, is cool and quite when doing many tasks not to mention when it's idle.

Ah, sorry, I misread. I thought you were quoting my post (sounded like something I’d say). Regardless, this is all about context. In the context of Apple Silicon vs. Intel CPUs, only high-end x86 are even remotely competitive performance-wise. The way I read the post is: if you want to have the same performance in the x86 land, you’ll have to pay with higher power consumption (with all the consequences).
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
11,296
Also, why do I have to do special tweaks and disable Turbo Boost just to get the computer to be quiet and less warm/hot? I certainly didn't have to do anything special with M1 Pro MacBook. It just works.

Double in which benchmark? I'm fairly certain the AMD 5800H is not double the performance of M1 in everything. M1 matches it and M1 Pro cleanly beats it in everything except for perhaps Cinebench, but Cinebench doesn't even use SIMD instructions on ARM processors so the performance loss is quite significant for M1 and M1 Pro.

Why is there a High Performance Mode on the 16" M1 Max that has to be manually toggled? Intel is tuned to run at high frequency. Just like if you want a car tuned for the track to not guzzle gas you have to tune it more like a Honda Civic.

I'm talking about total compute performance so that means GPU+CPU. I know GPU compute is new to Apple only users but CPU has been a slave to GPU compute for like a decade for cross platform users. Any heavy compute gets offloaded to GPU. My early exposure to GPU compute was with 9800GX2 which was released in like 2008.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
Why is there a High Performance Mode on the 16" M1 Max that has to be manually toggled? Intel is tuned to run at high frequency. Just like if you want a car tuned for the track to not guzzle gas you have to tune it more like a Honda Civic.

I'm talking about total compute performance so that means GPU+CPU. I know GPU compute is new to Apple only users but CPU has been a slave to GPU compute for like a decade for cross platform users. Any heavy compute gets offloaded to GPU. My early exposure to GPU compute was with 9800GX2 which was released in like 2008.

The M1 Max does not need to have High Performance Mode turned on. Auto works just fine.

Also why are you trying to compare M1 against a CPU + GPU combo and then saying M1 is not fast? You're basically saying that a combination of 100W in power consumption performs... twice as fast as a 15W chip.

Even the M1 Pro is not an power hog. I haven't seen mine go over 50W power consumption yet. Even the worst case scenario is just about 48W when both the CPU and GPU are maxed out at the same time.
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
11,296
Also why are you trying to compare M1 against a CPU + GPU combo and then saying M1 is not fast? You're basically saying that a combination of 100W in power consumption performs... twice as fast as a 15W chip.

Even the M1 Pro is not an power hog. I haven't seen mine go over 50W power consumption yet. Even the worst case scenario is just about 48W when both the CPU and GPU are maxed out at the same time.

Cinebench is outdated CPU benchmark. No professional renderer or professional of any kind uses CPU over GPU or GPU compute/render farm. Your power consumption info is outdated too. Here's ~44W total GPU+CPU in quiet mode completing Blender Classroom render in 453 seconds vs ~580 seconds for M1 Max. Until software are updated to support M1 Max to see what difference it makes it's just reality that it's slower.

~44W GPU+CPU power consumption
40W.png


Render completion in 453 seconds
40WComplete.png


M1 Max 580s for comparison
https://opendata.blender.org/benchm... Max&benchmark=classroom&blender_version=2.93
 

m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
Then allow me to respectfully disagree with you. This thing next to my MacBook is not cool or quiet even when it's literally doing nothing.

The fan is buzzing at 33dB while under 14% load (mostly due to Task Manager) in a room that's 26dB ambient. As soon as any load starts, it'll whoosh up like crazy. Meanwhile, the MacBook's fan is completely off right now.

Edit: also it is much warmer/hotter compared to the 14", which is cool to the touch. Also note that the chip is very boost-happy. It always wants to boost to 4GHz even when there's really nothing that needs that.
Disagree all you want. My Z-Book Studio is absolutely quiet when it's idle (or doing basic work).
 
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