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Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]
- Thread starter Admiralbison
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You might have guessed this was showing up!
Hmmm now I know what settings to use, here is my lowly Haswell from 2014 with a Nivida 970 also from 2014
View attachment 2026260
Seems like this systems still holds up! Beating some of Apples latest offerings.
I know I know, dedicated gpu, driver optimizations for nivida, direct x might be a tad more advance then metal.
But still not bad for a 8 year old system.
And here's the same MacBook with SOTTR.
My 2019 MacBook demolishes your gaming pc with Arkham City, yet fares terribly in SOTTR.
It's almost..... And hear me out here.. Almost as if the quality of the port matters when making comparisons.
Very interesting, I'm sure the port does matter, but no real way for us to change that or compare is there? Plus I believe these games tapped into Nivida specific tech, which didn't transfer well over to AMD GPU's or other means.
I fired up Batman: Arkham City on MacOS and noticed the settings are different from Windows. Rerun your benchmark with the following settings and anti-aliasing disabled to match MacOS and the YouTube video. You probably had anti-aliasing fxaa (high) enabled which would put you at a disadvantage.
Batman: Arkham City on Windows
Batman: Arkham City on MacOS
YouTube
I wonder how much easier it is to port a DX11 game to Metal vs a DX12 game.
I guess we will get a "definitive" answer when RE8 is released. NMS is a OGL/Vulkan game (which should have been ported years ago) so that should be pretty straight forward; I don't think Hello Games are using any "special sauce" features that would make porting to macOS terribly difficult.
Interestingly, the MacOS version of Batman: Arkham City is not only slower but also graphically MSAA (8x) anti-aliasing doesn't even work.
orionquest has smoother jaggies on tower structure
jordannz has staircase jaggies on tower structure
orionquest has smoother jaggies on tower structure
jordannz has staircase jaggies on tower structure
Here you go. Now I left off Vsync.
Not a huge difference, but visually less smooth looking.
Sure there is. As of now, Shadow of the Tomb Raider is not a native MacOS game. It’s running under Rosetta 2. If it were to be made native, it would then see a a performance improvement!
Does Rosetta 2 do extra Metal translations? IIRC Shadow of the Tomb Raider is a Metal game (though the CPU code is still Intel based)
Are there any other games besides BG3 that allow you to run native or rosetta path at high resolutions to see the framerate difference?
Agree, 84fps to 78fps is a small penalty for smoother jaggies with anti-aliasing enabled.
Overall, you're better off than jordannz as long as games run close to 60fps or better vs his where it sometimes dips down to 33fps with SotTR. Also, PC games are more likely to get FSR 2.0 for more fps. Going to try this FSR 2.0 mod which supposedly also works with Metro Exodus EE.
https://www.nexusmods.com/dyinglight2/mods/452?tab=description
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Dude. I compressed the screen shot down to a 150kb jpeg. The heck are you doing trying to judge image quality from that.
Image compression doesn't add stair case jaggies. Here's orionquest's image compressed down to 1/7 the size with no jaggies added.
What are you talking about? Lol.
JordanNZ's pic is a compressed jpeg while the other one is a png. How do you think lossy compression works? Lol
Control-v pasting of jpg to forum saves it as png. Compressing png down to 1/7 size jpg then pasting it as png is still lossy. Here's jpg attachment still with no jaggies added. Now you understand that anti-aliasing removes jaggies but compression doesn't add jaggies.
Antialiasing was turned off by default.
What are you even arguing here ?
JordanNZ posted a compressed jpg. It uses lossy compression. The other pic is a png. It uses lossless compression. You then claimed you “compressed” the image again when you cropped it. Lol
You had graphics settings turned down in both BAC and SotTR when comparing benchmarks with orionquest.
He had it at 1200p on Mac and you’re pushing 1080p on windows and talking about “settings”. Lol.
Edit:
Just checked the originals again. The windows png was 3.6mb. JordanNZ's jpg was 300kb. Lol "jaggies" lol.
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Let me know which part you still don't understand.
orionquest original png without stair case jaggies
lossy compressed jpg without added stair case jaggies
crop of lossy compressed jpg without added stair case jaggies
Good old mi7chy, calling everyone noobs and amateurs and everything not valid, meaningless, BS and a waste of time. Old habits die hard I guess. Thanks for your suggestion but you seem to project your shortcomings onto me. You clearly misunderstood me about not following your reasoning. I have no problem understanding your tech jargon, but you are as usual so eager to prove your point about ”Macs suck” that you don’t hesitate to quickly post random comparisons and comments without a common thread (besides ”Mac sucks”), many times contradicting your own previous posts. We've had similar discussions before about Mac vs PC and gaming since the M1 was released. Back then you tried to convince us about the superiority of the inferior Vega 8 APU over the M1 in games, even those without a Mac port so I’m not surprised. My mistake to think that things had changed for the better.
So benchmarks must always be done at the highest settings to be valid otherwise it’s an amateur mistake or BS? Didn’t you before post a benchmark from Tomb Raider 2013 at 1080p normal settings to show how fast your RX 6800 is? Then I guess that was an amateur mistake or BS too. Don’t worry, it’s human to make mistakes even though you try to act like Bruce Almighty most of the time.
To use your own word Meaningless! Reasons? See below!
1. You just showed that your 3060 is as good as M1 Max with ”unfair advantages” as you call it, nothing more. Your 3060 draws 70W for the GPU alone. In the GFX Bench and Wild Life Extreme test by ”garbage” Max Tech M1 Max 32-core GPU draws 43W. Anandtech found that in GFX Bench the total package power consumption of M1 Max is 57W. That is pretty close to Apple’s graph you linked to. Your 3060 has to use 13 more watts to get 13 more frames. That’s 1 frame/watt. If you undervolt it to 57W you won’t get those frame rates. For the most accurate result you should undervolt it to 43W. Then you would probably get only 63 fps.
2. You’re comparing a native x86 game in Win to a Rosetta translated x86 game on an ARM64 CPU. Not to mention that according to Brad Oliver former Mac dev at Westlake Interactive and Aspyr SOTTR on Mac is also only optimized for dedicated AMD GPUs, even less for iGPUs and even less for Apple’s iGPU. On PC it’s optimized specially for Nvidia. Again as I said before that could mean up to 100% less performance in the worst case in Rosetta games.
3. In Tally Ho Tech’s test with the high settings you call BS we know at least the name, model and spec of the PC laptop. We also know that PC CPUs and GPUs come in many variants with different clock speeds and that the speed and wattage can be overclocked or made to run constantly at boost speeds. If that is your own laptop for all we know you could easily have overclocked it to perform better. If not give us the source and exact model name and number.
4. The price comparison is such an old boring story. Not surprised that you still don’t get it but people buy Macs for so many other reasons than gaming. Gaming is just the cherry on top. Literally nobody pays $3000 for a M1 Max just to dust it off sometimes to play games. Are you that naive? The number one reason is MacOS. It’s the same reason why you got a Hackintosh despite loving PC HW which is funny considering all your dislike of Apple and Mac.
So he clearly states that Vsync is off in the beginning and the first game after that is Batman AC and he also says average frame rate, not locked and you still say he forgot to turn it off? Four times in MacOS, Win, Parallels and VMWare Fusion? He didn’t use the benchmark tool and was reporting the performance during the gameplay in the same scene. That can vary so he rounded that off to 60. You can see that the frame rate varies between 58-63 in those short clips. Even in VMWare with the lower frame rate it varies between 35-38. He’s been playing and benchmarking games on Mac and Win since 2007 and is the biggest and one of the best Mac gaming channels. I have gladly ”wasted” my time on him many times.
For comparison, 70W 3060 laptop @ 1080p medium.
5950x + 6800 @ 1080p medium
Again pointless. What comparison? So your new 3060 laptop makes an average of 288 fps with the benchmark tool and your conclusion is that an old Pro 560X should do more than 60 fps in a specific scene? Where’s the logic in that? Well, considering that 3060 laptop GPU has about 4-5 times the performance of a mobile Radeon Pro 560X for Mac which is underclocked and slower than RX 560X I would say his numbers are right according to Notebookcheck.
Here are my suggestions for you to understand some basics:
1. Learn more about how GPUs’ power consumption affects their performance and remember that when comparing Mac to PC.
2. Learn more about what HW/SW optimization means and how Rosetta and non-native Mac games affect benchmarks. Remember that when comparing Mac to PC.
3. Learn more about resolutions and game settings so you can use the right one when arguing instead of changing your mind when it suits you to prove a point.
Despite all our differences I think we can at least agree on one thing. There is no point in continuing this discussion.
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I don't understand the part where you compare a 3.6mb screenshot with lossless compression to a 300kb lossy compressed one and think it says something about "jaggies" or "apis being slower".
I don't understand how you then take a cropped screenshot of a zoomed in screenshot (revealed by the fact that your "jaggies" image itself nearly as big as the original, proving it's not part of the original)
I also don't understand how you whine about settings while ignoring the Mac was running at a higher resolution.
To be honest, I don't think you understand these things either. Otherwise you wouldn't be writing this garbage.
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Ok, bye unless you TLDR because that's saying a lot without saying anything and go watch, for example, Hardware Unboxed to understand fundamentals.
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The SOTT settings I used were the ones he and YOU posted…. What did I have ‘turned down’?
The only difference with Arkham City was that he had AA turned on. He retested with it turned off and gained a few frames, but still nowhere near mine. Oh… And I’m running at a higher resolution.
So….. What are you trying to argue here. What’s your actual point with these posts?
Here's the result with FXAA High enabled (I lost 2fps.... Yes.. 2).. Jaggies gone.
Now what?
Attachments
Went a bit further... Still doing better than orionquest.
How can this possibly be mi7chy? Please tell me what I'm doing wrong...