macOS is a good (albeit expensive) indie gaming platform. Not so much (as of right now, guess we get to check back in next year) for big budget games.
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Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]
- Thread starter Admiralbison
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What Triple AAA games under MacOS are you playing? Anything current?
I can't afford any new things right now. Nothing brand new like I said.
The newest game I have played that is considered AAA is Deus Ex Mankind Divided. World of Warcraft Shadowlands.
I prefer 2D games and I play a lot of those but most people don't consider those AAA even though AAA = Top quality which has nothing to do with 3D graphics.
In reality many AAA games are not AAA and many "indie" games are AAA but I know that's not the way we're currently using the term AAA.
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Anyways, I've never had any issue playing games aside from poor optimization. Even the new expansion of Final Fantasy 14 works well especially if you're willing to use workarounds to improve the FPS.
My macbook is more powerful than my brothers desktop pc yet because games aren't properly optimized for macOS it runs more or less equally to his under the same game.
IIRC AAA means budget (and/or dev studio size), not the quality of the game.
It's really just budget and that doesn't mean a lot. There's no formal definition for AAA. In general, $100M comes to mind when thinking about AAA but it could be more or less. And even that doesn't tell anything about the game. Take Nintendo for example, their games are simple, easy to make from a technology point of view. The majority of money goes into art and audio/music at Nintendo, not technology/software.
But hey on the plus side, Apple is so serious about gaming these days, they even make dedicated gaming hardware.
I don't much care for the term "AAA" gaming because it's completely arbitrary and means whatever an individual decides it means. Sometimes it involves a game of a certain budget, but with inflation and currency fluctuations, that's open to interpretation. Other times it can apply to a franchise and what perceived value it has. It's also regularly invoked in straw man arguments in an attempt to win a nerd food fight on the internet. The number of dead horses that have been beaten are legion.
My preferred genre is RPGs. I'd say about 80% of the games that I play are in that category. If you prefer to play RPG or strategy titles, then the Mac has those in plenty. I can't think of a single RPG that I am interested in that doesn't have a Mac version, and I play a lot of RPGs. I can easily spend hundreds of hours on a single RPG, while many so-called "AAA" games can get maybe 30-40 hours out of it, which while sometimes having pretty graphics, have almost zero replay value. Again, what one person considers "AAA", is someone else's waste of time and money.
Regardless, from my personal observations, often times on this forum the term "AAA" game = "game I want that's not available on the Mac".
My preferred genre is RPGs. I'd say about 80% of the games that I play are in that category. If you prefer to play RPG or strategy titles, then the Mac has those in plenty. I can't think of a single RPG that I am interested in that doesn't have a Mac version, and I play a lot of RPGs. I can easily spend hundreds of hours on a single RPG, while many so-called "AAA" games can get maybe 30-40 hours out of it, which while sometimes having pretty graphics, have almost zero replay value. Again, what one person considers "AAA", is someone else's waste of time and money.
Regardless, from my personal observations, often times on this forum the term "AAA" game = "game I want that's not available on the Mac".
I enjoy RPG's, alot. One of the single biggest RPG's has no Mac version, Elder Scrolls Skyrim. Add Fallout 3 and up to that and you've missed out on some great gameplay on the Mac.
Actually it is. You guys are taking this way too serious. It's games. If they're available for the Mac just play them, if not just buy the other platform and play there. Some people are so desperate as if their life depends on it. We're now seeing some ~20 year old games like Sim City 4 receiving an AS update, which is a simple recompile in most cases and not even a port as these games were available for Mac before. And some people are going nuts with how this means the Mac is now a gaming machine and every other developer will follow.
Well, that argument can always be made. "But my games are available so it's fine", but that's always been the case, so nothing changed.
In the little time I have for games I keep coming back to Path of Exile, which is available for the Mac (Intel and AS). The difference is it runs like crap on the Mac and looks much worse than the Windows version. That's something that would have to change. This year, other than God of War Ragnarok, I have Company of Heroes 3 on my list, which falls in the strategy category, but is on Windows only. Fine by me, I'll just buy the Windows version, no harm done.
Actually it is. You guys are taking this way too serious. It's games. If they're available for the Mac just play them, if not just buy the other platform and play there. Some people are so desperate as if their life depends on it. We're now seeing some ~20 year old games like Sim City 4 receiving an AS update, which is a simple recompile in most cases and not even a port as these games were available for Mac before. And some people are going nuts with how this means the Mac is now a gaming machine and every other developer will follow.
Actually the same could be said about your constant negative reaction to the slightest positive news about Mac gaming too whenever you find the time to visit MR. In your own words it's funny. It's just computers. If you like the Mac and your games are available for it just play them, if not just buy the other platform and play there instead of pointing out to people their platform sucks and is dead. You are so desperate to react and roll eyes every time you hear some positive Mac gaming news as if your life depends on it. And some people are going nuts with how the Mac is not and never will be a gaming machine and every other developer has abandoned or will abandon Mac. You are taking this way too seriously.
In your own words that is.Again it's about attitude. You see only some old games getting updates nothing to cheer about but devs like Aspyr starting to update their entire old catalog to AS is in fact a sign of how attractive and active they think AS and Mac gaming is. Otherwise they wouldn't bother to update all their old games.
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I've never had a negative reaction to gaming on the Mac. My reactions are realistic, something you don't understand because you live in your dream world and ignore reality. But nice try anyway.
Says the pot calling the kettle.Actually the same could be said about your constant negative reaction to the slightest positive news about Mac gaming too whenever you find the time to visit MR. In your own words it's funny. It's just computers. If you like the Mac and your games are available for it just play them, if not just buy the other platform and play there instead of pointing out to people their platform sucks and is dead. You are so desperate to react and roll eyes every time you hear some positive Mac gaming news as if your life depends on it. And some people are going nuts with how the Mac is not and never will be a gaming machine and every other developer has abandoned or will abandon Mac. You are taking this way too seriously.
Did we get any real Apple gaming news to jump for joy which would make any different to this threads situation?
Besides the hope Ventura might have something improved in Metal3
The fact that you do not understand anything I wrote, nor what you wrote yourself is speaking volumes. I welcome gaming on a Mac when it happens, but I'm not living in dream bubble and have to convince myself and others to keep wishful thinking alive. If I'd still play Diablo 3 I'd do it on a Mac. I call things by what they are, no matter if I like it or not. As a scientist I understand that's not always easy for those who have never worked in the business, nor in science and only act by emotions. But there's a difference between being looking forward to something that actually happens and projecting wishes into something for which there is no evidence. So back to the regular schedule now.
Sorry, I should have clarified that I meant isometric RPGs, such as the Pathfinder, ATOM, and Baldur's Gate series, to name a few.
Again, I should have clarified, but I admit that Japanese RPGs are way outside my area of familiarity.
I never said it was fine, in fact, I've always said that it could be improved. What I take umbrage at are the blanket statements that occasionally appear on this forum that "Macs can't play games", full stop, when in fact they can, because I do it all the time.
Speaking of Macs and gaming, remember when everyone got excited when Apple was rumored to have an interest in purchasing Electronic Arts? I think there's good reason to believe that a culture clash would sink the deal, seeing how EA is now putting kernel level anti-cheat tools into their games. I can't see Apple ever condoning such a system that could easily be abused, either by the company, or bad actors on the outside.
Also, Tim Cook may be psychic, because regulators are possibly going to scupper the deal for Microsoft to purchase Activision. Apple has slowed down its recent acquisitions, and they probably see that this is not the time for major purchases, given how much heat the tech industry is currently under. A big acquisition would be a distraction, and they already have enough government interference to deal with.
I've always been of the opinion that if Apple gets into gaming, then it's going to come from the inside, not a major merger. I don't know what Apple plans, if anything, I only know what we can see publicly with the announcement of Metal 3 and featuring prominent titles in the presentation. Perhaps Apple has greater ambitions, perhaps they don't, but I don't see it coming from purchasing a large game developer.
A mention of RE8 for Mac by Capcom, and an official website launch stating system reqs (M1 Mac or better)
Same announcement they made at WWDC? 🤔
It's something at least. But nothing else since June?
That statement is obviously nonsense. Of course Macs can play games. There have been games on Apples/Macs since the 6502 days in the late 70s and that didn't change in the 68k, PPC, Intel and now AS days. And I think what people really mean is, they look at their favourite games, see they're not available for macOS and then say "You can't play games on Macs", because the majority of titles is not available.
I have very fond memories of gaming in the old days, especially the 90s when graphics were so much better than before. And it was the same thing back then as it is now. We played what was available back then on a Mac and then had to switch to DOS on a PC to play the rest.
Yes I remember. And that's part of the problem. That deal was never going to happen and anyone with the slightest idea of how this industry works knew that. And yet, false hope is spread by some who tell us this is the major change and Apple will now take over the gaming industry. Just like when someone is pushing a button to recompile an old game for AS.
Well, Apple designed and used such systems themselves. They rolled out a system bypass for firewalls like Little Snitch, so macOS could talk back to HQ without the user being able to block it short of disconnecting for the internet completely or running an external FW. They do the same thing with CSAM on-device scanning now. These could be abused as well. This whole thing reminds me a lot of the early iPhone days when people suddenly complained about GPS and how they could be tracked when network carriers were always able to do it.
The whole EA thing is another slow news day. Starting with the fact that the article is wrong. Someone pulled a graphic from Wikipedia showing 4 ring levels when modern operating systems don't even use 4 levels anymore. Modern architectures support efficient syscalls from ring 3 to ring 0 and vice versa and that's really all that's needed these days. 1 and 2 are not used.
I understand the need for ring 0 anti-cheat, especially because there is a lot of money in esports these days. So an anti-cheat tool makes sense and I wouldn't worry about it. Installing this and running in ring 0 is just like installing any other thing and running it in ring 0 and could potentially be abused just like everything else. I'd much rather worry about running a cheat from some dubious hacker in ring 0.
Now of course Apple is a little different when it comes to this and security levels. With AS we're now moving away from the old kext model. AKCs can be very efficiently managed. They're not 100% secure as nothing ever is, but if anti-cheat developers wanted to, they could find a way of easily doing it the way macOS and 3rd party developers are doing it right now, just as cheats require to be specifically developed for macOS as well as they can't run the same way as in Windows. Since Apple made this much more complex with M1 but switched from multiple to one management tool, just do a "man kmutil" in terminal to see how it works.
Their ambition is to get money out of it, with as little effort as possible. Ideally via their cut on the App Store. That's why they're fighting so hard against side loading and throw the security argument at us when in reality they're just as vulnerable as others and when something happens, they're not even telling us right away: https://www.intego.com/mac-security...100-million-ios-users-and-apple-said-nothing/.
And when it comes to gaming, the Mx processors are their sweet spot with Apple TV and larger iPhones as well as smaller iPads the endgame.
I'd say for Apple, their ambition is threefold.
The ultimate goal is to get money from it, yes.
By increasing the Mac gaming market (in terms of capable models and selling more Macs), increasing the Mac's reputation for gaming, and yes, through exclusives.
As a secondary effect, if a game dev goes 'Hey, we've got this iPad game that looks really good, let's throw it on Mac as well', Apple's not going to complain.
The ultimate goal is to get money from it, yes.
By increasing the Mac gaming market (in terms of capable models and selling more Macs), increasing the Mac's reputation for gaming, and yes, through exclusives.
As a secondary effect, if a game dev goes 'Hey, we've got this iPad game that looks really good, let's throw it on Mac as well', Apple's not going to complain.
Dolphin got a metal backend, which plenty of people said would never happen... Until it happened.
This is actually a pretty big deal in the emulation scene.
That’s not how real scientists work and behave though. Real scientists don’t present their assumptions and opinions about people and subjects as facts. Neither do professional and credible scientists have to use condescending patronizing techniques with a self-righteous tone towards others in their attempt to validate their arguments. Many scientists are said to often lack social skills so I don’t know if this is a case similar to Sheldon Cooper but it sounds like it for sure. We’ve had this discussion many times before so I’m not really surprised.
I thought we were not supposed to take this too seriously? I guess it’s all fun and games as long as you can make fun of others but when someone else makes you taste your own medicine with your own words it all gets serious and personal?
Neither do real scientists need to mention their title or experience and imply how smart, educated and logical they are compared to people they know nothing about to make a point. Reasonable arguments speak for themselves unless you lack logic and need to throw in your superiority. Because being a scientist doesn’t automatically qualify you to being right and makes you an authority. History and everyday life is full of ”scientists” and ”experts” who don’t make sense.
You call others dreamers and yourself realist but dreams and reality often go hand in hand. Even scientists and inventors have dreams and are visionaries and work toward turning their dreams and visions into reality. Otherwise we would never have flown to the skies, gone to the moon or landed on Mars. A scientist with no hopes, dreams or visions is not a realist, but a pessimist. In that case you may want to tell NASA to come out of their bubble too. Greg Robinson former chief engineer and director of James Webb Space Telescope Program said in an interview that you have to be bold and do impossible things in order to get where you want which is a fitting description of Apple’s ambitions with AS and in Mac gaming now.
As a realist you look at the past and say there is still no sign or evidence of the growth of Mac gaming on Apple Silicon. At the same time you keep ignoring and denying those signs that are showing up. We’ve had other scientists here with sources and friends inside Apple who have told about Apple’s new commitment to gaming and their plans. I’m talking about the former AMD engineer and researcher C. Maier who was an active member here but got tired of educating the pessimists and left. We saw the evidence when Apple presented the fruit of their talks and negotiations with three famous studios and three popular games. We’re seeing more games come out as AS only and devs leaving the Intel Macs. We’ve seen Aspyr that had basically abandoned the Mac a long time ago do a sudden unexpected turn in order to bring their old Mac catalog to AS. Yes, old games but they choose to put the time and effort because they find the AS and Mac gaming attractive and active. Otherwise they wouldn't bother to update all their old games. We saw another sign now when Capcom told that they’re bringing the new Winters' Expansion to Mac too. I think it’s very strange that you call yourself a realist and ignore the reality at the same time. Probably because you compare the pc market with the Mac and are not satisfied until all pc games are also available on Mac when as a realist you should know that’s not ever going to happen.
Only act by emotions? You must be confusing direct feedback and criticism with being emotional. Again it’s extra interesting hearing that when I in fact used your own words. Since you like to have fun I thought it would be funny to replace the words and reverse the rolls. Despite playing cool you actually get emotional and overdramatic yourself many times in your posts when reacting. You call people ”so desperate as if their life depends on it” or think ”they’re going nuts” and roll eyes. You use suppression techniques like condescension, making fun and ridicule in the name of realism and logic. Even earlier in this thread you have used memes and called people delusional with Mac-fanboi behavior all hailing the Mac, Mac gaming and Apple and that they suffer a great deal from ”selective acceptance/rejection”. Those are all signs of emotional or passive-aggressive behavior, not neutral and indifferent.
Yet you claim you ”never had a negative reaction to gaming on the Mac”. Do you think you give positive vibes considering things mentioned above? Because your words and actions really don’t match. You certainly are not positive either. As far as I can remember and see you’ve never shown any enthusiasm or positivity about Mac gaming news. Like a true pessimist you always diminish every Mac gaming news or effort, big or little, ask people come out of their dream bubbles and kill their wishful thinking because nothing Apple or devs do will change anything and the Mac is not and never will be a gaming machine. One would think that someone wishing they could play Diablo 3 or other missing games on Mac would be slightly happier when something positive happens in the Mac gaming world instead of running around this forum and try to be a killjoy.
I mean we get your point, resistance is futile, Mac will never be a gaming machine, but then what? If the Mac will be a gaming machine and platform it will, if not it won’t. What’s the point of repeating the same message weeks, months or years after each other? Is it a divine call? Obsession and addiction? Doesn’t it get boring and tedious? To what purpose? What good will come out of this behavior other than personal satisfaction from bursting bubbles? Maybe you have a grudge against Apple for their terrible support compared to Nvidia when you were working on some projects as you have told before. I honestly think this sort of behavior must have deeper explanation. The problem is not that you are ”realist”. It’s the fact that you repeat the same narrative month after month. One would think that as a ”scientist” you would value your time and efforts more. You’re certainly not neutral and indifferent either because then it wouldn’t matter to you what people think or do and you wouldn’t spend so much time here trying to enlighten people. Which leads us back to being negative/pessimist. I mean even scientists get excited seeing progress or hearing positive news in their field of research, despite being realists, but apparently not in your case.
Unless you work or have sources inside Apple and know something we don’t you don’t need to be a scientist or in the business to understand how the Mac gaming business works. It may surprise you but you’re not the sole owner of a higher education or science degree here or in the world with knowledge or experience from the gaming business. You don’t even have to be scientist or genius to know the difference between optimism, pessimism and realism. Luckily there is this thing called WWW where people share information about all sorts of things for those who lack certain skills. Even with all your science and evidence you could/can not predict what Apple was/is cooking. You were surprised seeing Capcom and RE Village on stage. You shouldn’t take people and their knowledge for granted and act like the sole source and authority.
Something that also speaks volumes is the fact that you blatantly dictate that not only I don’t understand what you wrote but neither do I understand my own words when in fact you’re the one missing what I was referring to. With ”your biased words” I was referring to your claim ”you don't understand because you live in your dream world and ignore reality”. So now you’re not only a scientist but a psychic too who knows how I live and what’s going on in my head? What is even this dream you keep talking about?I’m very much a realist too but on the positive side. I also take things for what they are and am aware of the state of Mac gaming. The difference is that I acknowledge progress when I see the signs, I don’t deny them. All the news mentioned above are rather big and positive in the Mac world. The news about Aspyr you were referring to was surprising, big and positive. Yes, it is a good sign when a developer who has abandoned Mac makes a comeback, even with old games. Why would it be a bad sign? But I didn’t ”go nuts” thinking every developer will follow. That was you overdramatizing and making a interpretation that fitted your narrative. I even joked about them bringing Tiny Tina’s Wonderland to Mac.
I also find it very telling and funny that you accuse and mock people for getting emotional, going nuts and being desperate as if their life depends on it for some old games but do the same when you hear news about your favourite game coming out. You got so emotional that you started a whole new thread about it. I’m talking about Return to Monkey Island.
Here is what you wrote:
"Wow... I didn't see this one coming... not in a million years. I can't find words to describe my feelings for this. 32 years after I walked into a local computer store and bought the original Monkey Island game for PC, which got me totally hooked and 31 years after MI2, we're getting a direct sequel to MI2 which ignores all the other games in between. Excuse me please, gotta go, cry tears of joy (not kidding)."
So it’s okay for you to get emotional and go nuts for a small game with simple graphics after waiting 32 years but Mac gamers should stop dreaming and cheering when they get major titles like Resident Evil or their old games get updated to AS? I guess your principles don’t apply to yourself.
Before you also thought AAA games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider and Metro Exodus had simple graphics and that was the reason they could easily get ported to Mac. Now when someone says the same thing about the graphics of your favorite game you disagree:
"Such a shame how it looks, if that little trailer is a taste of what is to come., just looks like any other indie game out there, it has lost all of its charm that these games had back in the day, sad sad sad sad."
"Have to disagree, but that's all subjective."
Sorry Grumpy Scientist but I’m not impressed by the moral of your story and your double standards, but again you are not here to impress others as you often say. You’re only here to burst people’s dream bubbles while dreaming of playing Monkey Island.
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I complimented @GrumpyCoder on a statement that they made earlier, about how Apple may plan on bringing gaming to all of their devices, not just the Mac. I liked the post in question. I also said it fit with Cliff Maier's statements on the matter, because he never specified the Mac, just that Apple cared very much about gaming and would keep at it until they succeeded. My positive comments were met with crickets, even though what I said was genuine.
However, as soon as I made a comment that could be misconstrued as a negative, that I was somehow tossing a cold blanket on everyone who is dissatisfied with gaming on the Mac, it was pounced upon. I've said on multiple occasions that I think that Apple could improve the situation, and that I was speaking about people who come in here, drop a bomb that "Macs can't play games, full stop", and I take umbrage with that.
Some people take the stance of constantly being aggrieved. Even when everything is roses, they get mad at the bees. There's no point in engaging someone who takes that attitude, especially when I've already attempted to find common ground. I welcome contrary opinions, not being talked down to.
However, as soon as I made a comment that could be misconstrued as a negative, that I was somehow tossing a cold blanket on everyone who is dissatisfied with gaming on the Mac, it was pounced upon. I've said on multiple occasions that I think that Apple could improve the situation, and that I was speaking about people who come in here, drop a bomb that "Macs can't play games, full stop", and I take umbrage with that.
Some people take the stance of constantly being aggrieved. Even when everything is roses, they get mad at the bees. There's no point in engaging someone who takes that attitude, especially when I've already attempted to find common ground. I welcome contrary opinions, not being talked down to.