Apple destroying it's base of hardcore customers?

[LethalWolfe]

I assume you're referring to SDI and cards like P2/SxS that can directly plug into expresscard slots?

I'm not really referring to memory cards, but to things that are used to get video 'streams' from point A to point B like SDI/HDSDI, RS-422 (deck control), etc.,. FW is not good for medium or long runs, it is not frame accurate, it does not have a positive locking connector, and the jacks are relatively fragile.


Lethal

 

[Digital Skunk]

I have a feeling that the new case design came into play as well.

The big buzz in the uber nerd world is just that. Apple didn't have enough room for FW400 or a full sized display port in the new design.

I'm not really referring to memory cards, but to things that are used to get video 'streams' from point A to point B like SDI/HDSDI, RS-422 (deck control), etc.,. FW is not good for medium or long runs, it is not frame accurate, it does not have a positive locking connector, and the jacks are relatively fragile.


Lethal

Very true. I wouldn't even dream of cutting on a laptop if I had my choice. It'd be workstation class tower with deck or nothing. Capture cards and uncompressed footage is the way I'd like to work it, even if I were outputting to the web.

FW has it's uses for portable, on the move editing. And for those that want to carry a light load to a site, but dropped frames were a big headache when you didn't have a deck and had to capture tape through FW, and let's not even forget the amount of power drain the camera took to stream the footage.

 

[macrumorsMaster]

thanks for the laugh

firewire fought and lost to USB

too bad you just could not see it

i am more unhappy with apple blu-ray policy

Firewire is more important than blu-ray. How many people own blu ray drives? Most still have dvd or even vhs.

Firewire is not just important for camcorder transfer. It's also good for much FASTER sustain rates from external drives. This is good not only for video guys but for anyone need to transfer large amounts of data. This is why usb only drives are so much cheaper than drives with fw and usb.

 

[gkarris]

I was at a Camera Store and saw a guy drop $1,500 for a new Nikon DSLR Kit. This is the type of person Apple considers "hardcore customers". They are the type to go buy a $2,000+ MacBook Pro.

If Apple leaves out the FW drive on a $1300 consumer computer, go out and buy a new $200 camcorder, or $150 audio box...

I saw the new MacBooks and they are awesome...can't wait until it's time for me to upgrade in a couple of years. I'll just have to change my video habits to use my MiniDVD camcorder, or even my digital cameras that take videos with USB instead.

 

[macrumorsMaster]

If Apple leaves out the FW drive on a $1300 consumer computer, go out and buy a new $200 camcorder, or $150 audio box...

I saw the new MacBooks and they are awesome...can't wait until it's time for me to upgrade in a couple of years. I'll just have to change my video habits to use my MiniDVD camcorder, or even my digital cameras that take videos with USB instead.

You're better off using a AVHCD camera...miniDVD is terrible.
Not everyone drops so much on a camera.

Firewire is more than about camcorder access....though you can get a cheap(consumer) miniDV for $150 or less. Perfect for the consumer that the macbook is supposedly after. What is this consumer supposed to do when they can't transfer their video because there is no firewire?

What about fast transfer times with drives?

Or students studying audio on a tight budget and can't use the new macbook for doing their audio cuz there's no FW?

You just pointed out ONE person, to SKEW what is happening to spport your point.


I believe Apple took out the FW port, because they added the graphics power to the MB.
Think about it, previously the MB had the intel ***cough*** graphics. They paled in comparison to the MBP discrete graphics card.
Now Apple differentiates the two laptops by giving one of them a superior feature, this time FW.

 

[jaw04005]

The big buzz in the uber nerd world is just that. Apple didn't have enough room for FW400 or a full sized display port in the new design.

Looking at the MacBook's new NVIDIA chipset and case, it does appear that there were size limitations. I know previously Apple has acknowledged that FireWire controllers take up space. That's why it was eliminated from the iPod line.

However, that's no excuse. I would be surprised if FireWire 800 doesn't make its way back into the next revision of the MacBook. Possibly when FireWire 3200 is introduced to the Pro line.

However, with mini-DisplayPort I completely disagree that it was done to save space. Apple has a long history of creating proprietary "mini" versions of display standards such as mini-DVI and mini-VGA.

They have plenty of room on the iMac line, yet still ship a mini-DVI connector instead of the full-blown port.

I would assume Apple thinks the full-blown ports are aesthetically unappealing and would also like to sell $30 adapters.

For those that don't know Firewire's history ...

Apple was one of the last manufacturers to adopt USB 2.0. It took them three years from the introduction of USB 2.0 to even ship their first product with the standard, the PowerMac G5.

Ironically, they were the first to ship a computer with USB 1.x ports.

When USB 1.1 hardware became hard to acquire, Apple even went as far as to clock down USB 2.0 hardware to 1.1 speeds in the last generation PowerMac G4.

They spent years building Firewire up — getting hard drive, consumer and professional audio and video manufacturers to adopt it — only to drop it when it actually becomes a standard.

Dell offers Firewire on practically all their products as a either a standard feature or cheap upgrade. HP and Sony generally just include it.

 

[Counterfit]

But once this whole iPod, iPhone fad dies down

The iPod has been a fad for over 7 years now...

but now they have great success with casual gamers, they are ignoring the base, when the Wii fad is over so is Nintendo, because their hardcore base will be gone.

Try thinking this through again. If Nintendo hooks casual gamers, they now have more people to buy their new system (should it also appeal to casual gamers). Plus, you have to consider that they still make a profit on every console sold.

 

[gkarris]

I was at a Camera Store and saw a guy drop $1,500 for a new Nikon DSLR Kit. This is the type of person Apple considers "hardcore customers". They are the type to go buy a $2,000+ MacBook Pro.

If Apple leaves out the FW drive on a $1300 consumer computer, go out and buy a new $200 camcorder, or $150 audio box...

I saw the new MacBooks and they are awesome...can't wait until it's time for me to upgrade in a couple of years. I'll just have to change my video habits to use my MiniDVD camcorder, or even my digital cameras that take videos with USB instead.

You just pointed out ONE person, to SKEW what is happening to spport your point.

Now we have this latest development:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/586243/

Apple getting rid of the Mini clearly states that they are only interested in serious Pro customers and rich well-to-do's with disposible income...

 

[allmIne]

OP,

Check out google for Nintendo's 'Blue Ocean' strategy.

It's actually pretty impressive; rather than go after the core market, currently and for the foreseeable future dominated by Microsoft and Sony, they forged their own market. Literally, created from scratch. Obviously that's led to claims they've left behind their core market, but it's a profit led organisation, after all - they'll go where the money is.

 

[Eidorian]

OP,

Check out google for Nintendo's 'Blue Ocean' strategy.

It's actually pretty impressive; rather than go after the core market, currently and for the foreseeable future dominated by Microsoft and Sony, they forged their own market. Literally, created from scratch. Obviously that's led to claims they've left behind their core market, but it's a profit led organisation, after all - they'll go where the money is.

Ouch...

I'm surprised that Nintendo's Blue Ocean strategy came back to haunt me elsewhere. Now I've been a hardcore Nintendo fan for years and the Wii is leading to a massive casual acceptance and selling out everywhere. Nintendo pretty much has the license to print money.

I can see Apple following that ideal but the problem lies that we have many tiers of models to choose from and not just one Mac and all software/hardware runs on said Mac.

 

[Chaos123x]

The problem is the companies will ignore it's base while it caters to the casual crowd.

Why can't they do both?

 

[gkarris]

The problem is the companies will ignore it's base while it caters to the casual crowd.

Why can't they do both?

Not wanting to waste ANY resources on something with little returns..

OP,

Check out google for Nintendo's 'Blue Ocean' strategy.

It's actually pretty impressive; rather than go after the core market, currently and for the foreseeable future dominated by Microsoft and Sony, they forged their own market. Literally, created from scratch. Obviously that's led to claims they've left behind their core market, but it's a profit led organisation, after all - they'll go where the money is.

I checked it out - WOW! THIS IS INTENSE. Makes all sense now.

http://business-model-design.blogspot.com/2007/01/nintendos-blue-ocean-strategy-wii.html

Quoted part below:

Jeremy Fain from the Tech IT Easy blog puts it nicely:

Wii doesn’t intend to be a best-of-breed videogame console. Nintendo is trying to bring non core gamers back to gaming [..] with the Wii. Wii won’t equal video game but Wii aims at meaning fun. Nintendo focuses on the consumer’s feeling rather than its product. (-> read post...)

The attributes in the graphic show that Nintendo is competing on completely different terms than Sony and Microsoft. The Wii is cheap, has no Hard Disk, no DVD, no Dolby 5.1, weak connectivity, comparatively low processor speed, but blows minds away with its innovative motion control stick (check out the demo video below). The stick integrates the movements of a player directly into the video game (think tennis, golf, sword fights, ...). With this feature Nintendo opens up the console world to a completely new public of untapped non-gamers...

All of the above describes nothing else than the characteristics of a blue ocean strategy:

A strong value innovation for (many new) customers (i.e. motion stick)
Cost reduction by eliminating features (i.e. no HD, no DVD, no Dolby 5.1, low processor speed)

These two characteristics defy the conventional wisdom that you should either go for cost leadership or differentiation but not for both (remember Michael Porter...). In Kim & Mauborgne's terms this means that while Microsoft's Xbox and Sony's PS3 are fighting each other fiercly in a red ocean (i.e. the existing market), Nintendo's Wii is calmly sailing in the blue ocean it created for itself (i.e. a new market)... By the way, Switzerland is not innocent as to the creation of this blue ocean: An Italy-based division of STMicroelectronics, which is headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland, has put forward to Nintendo the integration of motion sensors into their consoles.

 

[k2spitfire88]

Honestly, their Blue Ocean Strategy is working for them. I know many, many people who have switched to Mac's. They are all considered consumer level, and many of them have the Macbook. Most of them not only do not use Firewire, they do not know what it is. I think their decision was based on the fact that many CONSUMER LEVEL CUSTOMER'S do NOT use Firewire. No matter how disappointing it is, it was something extra for many people that they never used, that took up space. They took it out, not only for that reason, but they also needed to differentiate between the consumer level and the pro level machine. That is why i believe they took out the firewire port, because many consumers (which means people who do not check macrumors like it's their job, if at all) do not use/know what it is.

Not trying to upset anyone, just my 2 cents

 

[NT1440]

That's pretty ironic since creative professionals are often "starving artists". How are they gonna be able to afford that overpriced crap? I don't need or want a computer that costs me a ton of money, I want one that is reasonably-priced and works well.

Apparantly you dont buy macs....

 

[Chaos123x]

The Blue Ocean Strategy does work in the short term and they do make allot of money!


But casual consumers are not going to remain loyal after the next shiny product goes by, they will be jumping ship, and without the hardcore base as floatation devices the boat will sink in hard times on that grand blue ocean.

 

[jeremy.king]

Since when does hardcore base equal creative artists? Also, since when does the Macbook target prosumers? Use a frackin' MBP or Mac Pro!

 

[localoid]

If Apple has embraced the Blue Ocean mindset then it's time for members of Apple's creative community to consider abandoning the Apple ship now before Logic, Final Cut, and any other software not used by the majority of users are dropped by Apple.

 

[Blue Velvet]

I would always buy a Mac Pro or MacBook Pro for my main home machine. My only concern is that a large range of FW800 peripherals are extremely hard to find in the UK, and I don't like their moves towards proprietary connectors for displays.

The way things are going, I think I'll hang onto my 2.33 17" matte MBP with its DVI port for some time, and see how things pan out with the next revisions of both of the pro lines. After getting rid of the 160Gb iPod, I'm losing a lot of faith in Apple at the moment.

 

[localoid]

Since when does hardcore base equal creative artists?

Creative people were always a part of Apple's hardcore base, but now they're apparently viewed by Joe Average MacUser as being trouble-makers, because they attempt explain why they need certain things that the average user doesn't. Someone should do a study on that...

Also, since when does the Macbook target prosumers? Use a frackin' MBP or Mac Pro!

People who rely on their equipment to make a living usually buy whatever does the job rather than buying equipment based on marketing hype. They probably would buy a MBP vs. a MB if it actually had the features they need, but thanks to the Blue Ocean mindset in the future that equipment may likely have only the features that Joe Average MacUser wants, e.g., a very thin and shiny case.

 

[jeremy.king]

Creative people were always a part of Apple's hardcore base, but now they're apparently viewed by Joe Average MacUser as being trouble-makers, because they attempt explain why they need certain things that the average user doesn't. Someone should do a study on that...

All features which, to date, still exist in the MBP and Mac Pro.

People who rely on their equipment to make a living usually buy whatever does the job rather than buying equipment based on marketing hype. They probably would buy a MBP vs. a MB if it actually had the features they need, but thanks to the Blue Ocean mindset in the future that equipment may likely have only the features that Joe Average MacUser wants, e.g., a very thin and shiny case.

So basically you are complaining about something that hasn't even happened (and most likely won't) based on the fact Apple removed Firewire from a consumer machine? Seriously?

Preemptive complaining - it's the new black!

 

[LethalWolfe]

I would always buy a Mac Pro or MacBook Pro for my main home machine. My only concern is that a large range of FW800 peripherals are extremely hard to find in the UK, and I don't like their moves towards proprietary connectors for displays.

As far as FW800 goes, all you need is a FW400-to-FW800 cable as the two are completely compatible they just different plugs.

Since when does hardcore base equal creative artists?

Possibly since Apple helped usher in the use of desktops to replace 'big iron' machines in the publishing, music and TV/film industries.

Also, since when does the Macbook target prosumers? Use a frackin' MBP or Mac Pro!

Since when is FW400 a prosumer or professional I/O? It's been on Apple's consumer products since '99 and was developed, in part, to work w/the consumer video format we all know and love called DV. As technology has marched on even the processor speed of a 'lowly' consumer notebook is more than beefy enough to handle on-the-go DV, HDV, or DVCPro HD editing but w/o FW to connect a camera or storage it's a no go. The MB was becoming too much of a MBP-lite, and too popular so like the 12" PB Apple had to 'fix' the problem to protect the sales of of the more expensive laptops.


Lethal

 

[dolphin842]

... and I don't like their moves towards proprietary connectors for displays.

To be fair, mini-DisplayPort is just as proprietary as mini-DVI. The actual DisplayPort, however, isn't proprietary; it's a new standard just beginning to see adoption.

The way things are going, I think I'll hang onto my 2.33 17" matte MBP with its DVI port for some time, and see how things pan out with the next revisions of both of the pro lines. After getting rid of the 160Gb iPod, I'm losing a lot of faith in Apple at the moment.

Not a bad plan. I think a lot of the long-time Apple fans (I started following them 2002-2003) can sense a shift in that Apple is beginning to focus on the larger segments of the market. I agree though that such focus shouldn't come at the expense of the needs of the 'original' (e.g. creative) base. However, Apple is a corporation after all... it never hurts to have escape plans.

 

[jeremy.king]

Since when is FW400 a prosumer or professional I/O? It's been on Apple's consumer products since '99 and was developed, in part, to work w/the consumer video format we all know and love called DV.

It's my opinion that the main motivation of adding FW to the Macbook was to support old iPods. Since those have been converted to USB (for some time now), there isn't as much of a need in the new MB.

 

[k2spitfire88]

It's my opinion that the main motivation of adding FW to the Macbook was to support old iPods. Since those have been converted to USB (for some time now), there isn't as much of a need in the new MB.

That actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Blue Velvet]

The actual DisplayPort, however, isn't proprietary; it's a new standard just beginning to see adoption.

Thanks for correcting me. I haven't looked into these things too deeply at the mo since I'm not in the market for anything from Apple this year or probably next. Depends on where they go with the Mac Pro; I use a MBP with an external display only for space and noise reasons.