Apple Files Official Motion to Vacate Court Order, Says FBI Seeks 'Dangerous Power'

[MH01]

Why is it only 'American' corporations supporting this stance?

Apple are very much playing this as some sort of PR stunt as well to advertise they are going to make uncrackable devices, they are on a marketing stint for sales.
But I have also read they do not have the full support of the American public, some accusing them of supporting terrorism.

I am pretty certain where this will all end up, but you carry on your wave of people power.

It's meaningless in the rest of the world anyway as I believe each country has different laws, pretty sure in the UK Cook would have been out in jail by now. So it is an interesting insight into American law.

Given how quickly they handed over the iCloud backups , security and privacy of the individual in question was not a factor.

I can see the PR stunt angle here . Sell the iPhone as uncrackable , a selling feature, though any of that data that is backed up from that iPhone will be handed over asap. In a way I really support apple on this, though at the same time I do not trust them with my data either.

Remember people, had iCloud backups continued, Apples fight for us all as it unfolds today , would have been irrelevant , as they handed the backups over. So anyone using iCloud , your privacy/security is out the window anyway.....so ask yourself the question , is your data backed up with iCloud? The FBI just needs a court order to get it....

 

[\-V-/]

Agreed. Every single one of the candidates that spoke about this issue on the debate stage tonight showed no understanding of the enormity of this issue. It was an incredibly disappointing display from the party that is supposed to be generally in favor of limiting government overreach.

Yeah ... it's very unsettling, to say the least.

 

[MH01]

The point being argued is that Apple is refusing to give the FBI the data on the phone ... which they aren't ... because they can't. The issue is what the FBI is asking Apple to do ... which has been explained to death already so I'm not going to bother. Seriously ... read something in here.

In which case you don't understand the difference between cannot and will not. Which is the basis for the current debate.

Yes, I replied to your comment as I found it comical that you attacked your own politicians for not understanding the issue, while "reading" your comments..... The irony

Agreed, read something in here to understand why this is a debate.....and trust me, Apple "can" provide access. They never stated they cannot .... they even stated it just needs to be a version of iOS ..... Read something in here...

 

[\-V-/]

In which case you don't understand the difference between cannot and will not. Which is the basis for the current debate.

Yes, I replied to your comment as I found it comical that you attacked your own politicians for not understanding the issue, while "reading" your comments..... The irony

Agreed, read something in here to understand why this is a debate.....and trust me, Apple "can" provide access. They never stated they cannot .... they even stated it just needs to be a version of iOS ..... Read something in here...

There is no irony. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[MH01]

Agreed. Every single one of the candidates that spoke about this issue on the debate stage tonight showed no understanding of the enormity of this issue. It was an incredibly disappointing display from the party that is supposed to be generally in favor of limiting government overreach.

This goes for most things discussed in politics. If you tune into any issue in detail such as this one , you realise how little the politicians understand or care. This just gets exposed more when it comes to tech.
[doublepost=1456461454][/doublepost]

There is no irony. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

Look up the meaning of cannot and will not. It will help you understand the issue

 

[\-V-/]

Look up the meaning of cannot and will not. It will help you understand the issue

I know the difference. I really don't see any productivity in making trollish posts on a very serious topic in which you clearly don't understand. I really don't see the point in being willfully ignorant on such an important discussion. I'm not going to invest anymore time in someone that has completely convinced themselves that their misinformation is reality.

 

[Tech198]

"And the Constitution forbids it"

someone tell that to the NSA too.

What we live in a world of make believe and uni-corns.... The government has the power to do this themselves, but put that same control in the hands of the a company like Apple and there is some resistance ?

That's not playing fair. The government should have the same privacy powers users have. By write up this crap,,, by ignoring it themselves, they set a pretty bad example of why we get them into Congress or what not in the first place....Apple has the power, the government forbids it, yet they break their own rules at the same time.

someone really needs a good punch in the nose.

 

[Dammit Cubs]

No, they didn't.

It's a joke dude.

 

[\-V-/]

It's a joke dude.

Don't give me reasonable explanations!


Yeah, my bad. Just so much derp in the forums lately.

 

[hiddenmarkov]

Given how quickly they handed over the iCloud backups , security and privacy of the individual in question was not a factor.

I can see the PR stunt angle here . Sell the iPhone as uncrackable , a selling feature, though any of that data that is backed up from that iPhone will be handed over asap. In a way I really support apple on this, though at the same time I do not trust them with my data either.

Remember people, had iCloud backups continued, Apples fight for us all as it unfolds today , would have been irrelevant , as they handed the backups over. So anyone using iCloud , your privacy/security is out the window anyway.....so ask yourself the question , is your data backed up with iCloud? The FBI just needs a court order to get it....

that has always been the case. Cloud backups have always been accessible. No matter the vendor.


Concerned and/or Paranoid about that look at software backup solutions that offer no recovery options whatsoever. I use Arq on my MBP. During install and setup you come to a screen. It says in no uncertain terms they can't recover a lost password. Password forgotten, data is dead to you for all intents and purposes. Enter password here now.

Once setup my data encrypted with a password I'd better not forget gets sent to the cloud of choice. Doesn't matter which cloud. data on the cloud is reachable. Key is to make it unreadable (easily anyway) if so desired. Dropbox, google, etc when they see a warrant will give up the data. On the user to make this hard to read. Which you should be doing in the first place. If the google admin can turn over a readable file....that means they could have read it to.

Cloud 101...moral dilemma, do you leave data out there easy to read when you don't even know who the staff is beyond an email address (if you even get john.dough@cloudstorage.com and not techsupport@cloudstorage.com to make it more personal)

So when anyone requests (or hacks the system) to pull clouds stores files....they can get files from me they can't decrypt. Not even the maker of the application that encrypted it can do this in theory.


Cloud is also another issue. They want the phone open. Phone with designed irreversible technology in theory. they didn't like the back up on the icloud it seems. Which to me would imply (mixed with the destroyed burn phones and laptop) this phone was not used beyond work. Since we can assume FBI/LE has pulled the bill with calls made and cleared that. And we can also assume owner having this work phone and burn phone....had the common sense not to mix personal and work calls up.

I know non terrorists who do this. Arrange your booty calls not on a phone that is monitored if needed (company reserves the right to.....yada yada) and not even your bill is private is their MO lol. Where I work IT controls the phones. We see the bills. So does accounting, when you cough up the cash for non work calls. If executive wants to see the bill....here you go CEO. Want to argue a charge is work related...in comes another section.

 

[8692574]

If apple folds all the sudden , and this turns out to be a PR stunt , I'll be very disappointed . I hope they go all the way with this.

This is what I am afraid of, and if they do that they will lose many customers i guess, i think that they put themselves in a situation of Do or "Die", i fully support them, and hopefully they'll do all the way!

 

[BvizioN]

You have a VERY different attitude and it seems law on 'privacy' in America to the UK, plus your news culture is slightly different I think. In the UK I believe Cook would just be thrown in jail for obstructing justice.

I live in UK too and last time I checked, appealing against a court decision is totally legal in UK and you don't go to jail for this. But yes, you are right about all the rest.
[doublepost=1456471916][/doublepost]

Do you have a right to privacy in a safety deposit box?

I think you have the wrong analogy here.

Accessing a singular deposit box is not putting at risk the security of all other deposit boxes. If FBI was to be provided with a master key for all deposit boxes, now that would be wrong.

 

[vladi]

There is only one difference here people are overlooking unfortunately. This is FBI they are fighting against, but NSA already has iPhone data covered.

 

[JGRE]

Well, if Apple is forced to provide a back-door, what will prevent us from using third party encryption to close this back-door again?

 

[8692574]

Well, if Apple is forced to provide a back-door, what will prevent us from using third party encryption to close this back-door again?

If Apple is forced what, makes you think a third party won't either? This is the main point, if you create a precedent then it's all gone!

 

[gnasher729]

well we know what Trump would choose

You mean he wants to make the sale of nachos illegal? Not that I would be surprised. "Taco Bell" has to rename itself to "Freedom Bell".
[doublepost=1456483310][/doublepost]

I think too many are brainwashed by the media's stance on this. Whether CNN, MSNBC or FOX NEWS, they're all "simplifying" the argument down to "Apple won't give the FBI the key to unlock the terrorist's phone" without explaining that Apple doesn't have said key. The technical aspects are too complex for the average person to understand the implications of. It just doesn't fit into their 30second sound bites before breaking away to ads.

I think it's not really technical aspects.

All you have to explain to people is that the same things that protect this killers secrets stored on the phone to be read are also protecting quite ordinary citizens who have "nothing to hide" from hackers and criminals who would find a way to turn the contents of your phone into a way to steal your money, it protects quite ordinary citizens who _have_ something to hide (and everybody has something to hide, imagine you're name is Donald Trump, there is no closet big enough to hide all your skeletons), and importantly it protects citizens _who are at risk_, for example law enforcement, army personnel, top employees who could be blackmailed, anyone who speaks up against terrorists, families of army personnel in Afghanistan...

So the question isn't "should we be able to read the data on the phones of terrorists". That's an obvious yes. The question is "Should we be able to read the data on the phones of terrorists, when the thing that makes it possible also makes it possible for lots of criminals to hack into the phones of ordinary citizens, and for terrorists to read the data of our phones". And then the answer is a totally different one.

 

[Mystic386]

If the FBI win then the logical next step for them is to;

- ask for access to all the data on someone's phone suspected of being a criminal. Effectively a phone data tap. Pulling down all the data. Then of course requesting the data on all the suspect connections there.

The path this goes down is unsafe. It's also not like the Police can't track everyone this guy spoke with.

If the FBI do succeed I want to see full disclosure as to whether they got anything verifiable or was the fishing trip a waste of resources and a step not needed.

 

[apolloa]

What? Android phones have similar level encryption but Google hasn't pushed it like Apple has done theirs.

CBS article from today on Android encryption and why police find it easier to break into Android phones:
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...-are-easier-for-police-to-crack-than-iphones/

Erm actually Google and Microsoft and Facebook and Twitter are going to file a 'friend in court' thingy to officially support Apple in this matter.
So your point is what exactly? It makes no difference in other country's where the law and opinion is different and they all have to give evidence up anyway.

 

[furi0usbee]

Man ... watching the Republican debate is irritating when the Apple questions come up. None of them have any freaking idea what they're talking about. The media is really twisting this in the favor of the FBI by giving false information regarding the actual problem at hand.

This ^^. Did you see how Kasich didn't even answer the question when it was posed to him? Maybe that's because I remember in an earlier debate when they talked about encryption (before the current iPhone issue with the FBI), and he said the problem is that there was too much encryption and that encryption was a problem. Totally clueless. Then if you really want your head to explode, listen to some of the Fox News people on The Five, or people throughout the day talking about the issue.

Many people feel the government should have the right, with a search warrant, to be able to decrypt any iPhone in the world. Fine, if the FBI wants to take on that challenge, go ahead. But to ask the company who makes the phone to make special conveniences for them, essentially meaning no matter what I do, the FBI can break in. Because let's face it, we don't use 32 character, alphanumeric passwords on our phones. Most use 4 digit, some use 6, etc. So if the FBI can put iOS on a supercomputer and throw billions of passwords at it, and not be limited by the erase feature, basically everything we have on those phones is open for the FBI to see. And where does it end? Insurance companies looking at your emails/iPhone after you die, maybe to try to invalidate your life insurance policy to see if you were doing anything that could void it before you died?

I feel this issue will eventually end up in the supreme court, and let's hope they don't strip our rights to privacy forever. When you have to go underground to use encryption, you know the best days of your society are over.

 

[springsup]

Although I stand with Apple on this (as stated in various other previous posts), I am intrigued by the argument they filed. Some of their points are substantive in that they point to prior bills that did not pass, but at other times it seems to be less legal or substantive and very much opinion. how much of that is for the judge and how much of that is for the public?

Actually, Apple's legal arguments here are pretty smart.

- There is precedent of government subpoenas to demand access to hacking techniques. They did this to break TOR and find the guys behind Silk Road. Who's to say that once this code exists in Apple's hands, the government can't just take it and use it without Apple's further involvement?

- There is precedent that code is protected speech.

- Apple's digital signature used to validate iOS updates is also a strong candidate for protected speech. It is the cornerstone of trust and security on the platform - if the government can compel Apple to digitally sign things they don't want to, it destroys Apple's credibility and makes them a controllable mouthpiece for government-ordered code they disagree with.

Taken together with CALEA and the other arguments, Apple has a pretty strong case that the government lacks the required authority.

 

[alexgowers]

I think this highlights not how good apples security is but how bad security is for every other platform and the lack of morals that go around those other companies. I don't think apple is really that moral but that this case exists shows the extent to which your data is mined and examined.

The whole judicial system is upside down. Poor people get arrested and jailed for possessing minute amounts of drugs but no one person is even arrested for massive financial fraud and banking collapses! There is one set of consequences for the middle/poor and another for the rich/business/government. The balance needs to be readdressed and i suspect this case will show everyone exactly how little your privacy is respected.

 

[thermodynamic]

Apple is playing with dangerous power by trying to usurp the government.

Government's job is to govern.

Government has a legal court order, obtained ethically.

ABOUT TERRORISTS WHO HAVE COMMITTED BIG ACTS.

At least we can vote in people we don't like or make stupid decisions. We don't have that power with Cook.

Cook is not doing this for America's benefit, what with it offshoring jobs, hiding from tax laws like how all businesses have to pay for, has lobbyists to try to have laws changed in its favor (higher profit(eering)) and other acts that are cancerous to America and its workers... Apple does not give one whit about any of us. Or hasn't before, so why is it making such a big pity-violin case on how it will be bad for America? He's done and condoned lots that are bad for America, so he's no saint.

MANY Americans are offended by Cook's supporting the terrorists and using this whole event to effectively advertise to them for free. I'm sure Microsoft is feeling envious right now. Maybe Microsoft will give out free Surface Tablets, engineered in other counntries it gave source code to earlier, to make life easier for terrorists?

 

[BaldiMac]

Apple is playing with dangerous power by trying to usurp the government.

Government's job is to govern.

Government has a legal court order, obtained ethically.

ABOUT TERRORISTS WHO HAVE COMMITTED BIG ACTS.

At least we can vote in people we don't like or make stupid decisions. We don't have that power with Cook.

Cook is not doing this for America's benefit, what with it offshoring jobs, hiding from tax laws like how all businesses have to pay for, has lobbyists to try to have laws changed in its favor (higher profit(eering)) and other acts that are cancerous to America and its workers... Apple does not give one whit about any of us. Or hasn't before, so why is it making such a big pity-violin case on how it will be bad for America? He's done and condoned lots that are bad for America, so he's no saint.

MANY Americans are offended by Cook's supporting the terrorists and using this whole event to effectively advertise to them for free. I'm sure Microsoft is feeling envious right now. Maybe Microsoft will give out free Surface Tablets, engineered in other counntries it gave source code to earlier, to make life easier for terrorists?

Funny how you ignore fundamental rights under the constitution. And how Apple is acting legally in a way specifically allowed by the court order. Usurp power? What ********!

There are laws on the books that specifically deny the FBI what they are asking for. Congress has already examined the idea of allowing law enforcement to demand backdoors. Congress rejected that idea.

 

[alexgowers]

I just don't understand how this is even enforceable, surely it's down to individuals on the team to program it and if they refuse there is nothing they can do. Apple could suggest they all refuse and suspend them with pay. FBI will never get them to comply i think. even if they win the case.

 

[springsup]

Apple is playing with dangerous power by trying to usurp the government.

Government's job is to govern.

Government has a legal court order, obtained ethically.

ABOUT TERRORISTS WHO HAVE COMMITTED BIG ACTS.

At least we can vote in people we don't like or make stupid decisions. We don't have that power with Cook.

Cook is not doing this for America's benefit, what with it offshoring jobs, hiding from tax laws like how all businesses have to pay for, has lobbyists to try to have laws changed in its favor (higher profit(eering)) and other acts that are cancerous to America and its workers... Apple does not give one whit about any of us. Or hasn't before, so why is it making such a big pity-violin case on how it will be bad for America? He's done and condoned lots that are bad for America, so he's no saint.

MANY Americans are offended by Cook's supporting the terrorists and using this whole event to effectively advertise to them for free. I'm sure Microsoft is feeling envious right now. Maybe Microsoft will give out free Surface Tablets, engineered in other counntries it gave source code to earlier, to make life easier for terrorists?

You're misunderstanding this topic in a fundamental way. Apple doesn't have the ability to refuse to comply with a court order. They do, however, have the ability to challenge it in court based on the law of the land.

Apple argues that the FBI's request oversteps those laws, and moreover, that the laws which do exist precisely fail to authorise what the FBI is asking for.

"Government" is not the same as the FBI. The Government also includes the legislature (i.e. Congress), who wrote those laws which Apple argues expressly do not permit the FBI to do this.
[doublepost=1456494845][/doublepost]

I just don't understand how this is even enforceable, surely it's down to individuals on the team to program it and if they refuse there is nothing they can do. Apple could suggest they all refuse and suspend them with pay. FBI will never get them to comply i think. even if they win the case.

No, if the court order is ultimately upheld and found to be legal, Apple will have to comply.

If they or any individuals refuse, the government has all kinds of legal sanctions available. Including jail.