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Kung gu

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As for the topic of this thread. Yes, I do believe the Intel Mac Pro is a waste of money and is overpriced.

I waiting for the Apple Sillicon Mac Pro, I know it won't be upgradable but it will fast and efficient.

As for Apple losing the plot on Pro hardware if the MBP 14" and 16" drop the touchbar, have SD card and HDMI(like the rumours say) and great performance and start around the same price as the intel macbook they replace then Apple will have gained common sense back.
 
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Ethosik

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Oct 21, 2009
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I don't know if anyone's graphed the prices of Mac Pros (and their predecessors) against some kind of economic index... But yes, I have no doubt that the newest Mac Pro is way over priced.

I'm currently using a 2010 MacPro, and have previously used a Quadra and PowerMac G5 - all second hand, because there's no way I could afford new. But now, given the RRP of these new machines, I can't foresee a suitable intersection between when the 7,1 will be affordable second hand, and still have enough life in it to consider buying one.

Unless the transition to the M chips means the original 7,1 falls DRASTICALLY in price... (and thus - keeping me out of the M series for years...)

I'm holding off on the idea of a M Mac Mini + some kind of multi HDD bay.... though it may well be what I'll be forced into.
That is the thing though people need to keep aware of. Apple has some very high quality components that make a 2010 Mac Pro last as long as it lasts. I have had some custom built PCs last about that long, but Dell/HP/Lenovo and others typically use pretty cheap components. That non name brand PSU will be an issue in 5+ years. It has been common for "expensive" Dell workstations to start to have issues after 4 years at my previous job.
 

rafark

macrumors 68000
Sep 1, 2017
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But if macOS *was* available on other hardware, the entire platform would be worse. Tight integration between hardware and software is the precise reason macOS is such a great user experience, and the diversity of hardware Windows has to be compatible with is exactly why it's such a messy, compromised experience.
It’d lose a lot of its ‘charm’ I agree. I do like my OS X being limited to Apple hardware. But server-side Linux, for example, is not exactly a messy experience. It’s actually pretty good.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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Maybe in the Pro version there are few but in the Home version its a mess of ads.
Nope. Pro version has the same you mentioned. I started turning everything off when installing fresh Windows 10 to bypass all those. But still, right on my start menu is an ad for Spotify and Hidden City: Hidden Object Adventure???
 

Schismz

macrumors 6502
Sep 4, 2010
343
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But if macOS *was* available on other hardware, the entire platform would be worse. Tight integration between hardware and software is the precise reason macOS is such a great user experience, and the diversity of hardware Windows has to be compatible with is exactly why it's such a messy, compromised experience.

It really varies tremendously. macOS is an evolution of NeXTStep, NeXT stopped making hardware and had their OS running on a series of "certified" PC systems, as well as Sun/SPARC, and the very old HP snakes ... it worked just fine. Then Apple acquired NeXT for $400mil+. Steve Jobs came back home from being cast out and wandering in the wilderness, and NeXT basically did a reverse-takeover of Apple. Rhapsody -> OS X -> macOS has shifted CPUs multiple times. There are numerous historical pics of the era and the laptop Jobs' is using when he returned to Apple, was an IBM ThinkPad running NeXTStep ;-)


If they wanted to, they could sell the OS. Or to be precise, they could comfortably sell the OS on some limited subset of "certified" systems which are guaranteed to "Just Work" at least as well as Apple's own hardware.

But they're never going to.

It makes no sense from a financial perspective. Apple generates ridiculous profits by locking you into their ecosystem and hardware. <Shrug>. When you buy toys from Apple, try to also buy some shares ... future you will be happier (and have a lot more money to spend on more sh1nY n3WeR m0rE!!1!, without caring how much it costs).

FWIW, very happy with Mac Pro 2019, it's a really nice piece of heavy metal sculpture, with a lot of slots. Yay Cheesegrater.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
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I 100% disagree. I don't want a Macpro (despite have trashcan) because it's too big and video orientated. Imac have built in screens, and i want to run (only) 2 x 5k 43" (which my trashcan does well (most of the time)). I do need decent rendering. And 64 GB for multiple instances of Archicad / indesign. Dont need it expandable, so long as I can configure to make it large enough (4TB) for the next 4-5 years. And I want to be able to pick it up & take it home every day.
right, so what you want is just the Intel Mac Mini. You have no need for a "larger" cube decorative object, just the ARM equivalent of what was the standard Mini previously.
 

mattspace

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I waiting for the Apple Sillicon Mac Pro, I know it won't be upgradable but it will fast and efficient.

The exact same things were said about the 2019 before it was released - we had the prognostications of "darknetguy" who was all about the new Mac Pro being another proprietary 2013-esque machine, and then when the slottiest slotbox to ever slot out of Apple appeared, all sorts of painting the bullseye around the holes in the barn wall was offered to say that MPX fitted the wild speculation passed off as insider knowledge.

The Mac Pro exists to host PCI cards, period. Thunderbolt is a failed strategy to achieve that task, Apple is not going to go back to it.

The Mac Pro exists to grow its capabilities over its owner-lifespan in terms of memory and storage, period. The fact that the current M-series don't support user-upgradable ram is no more of an indication the Mac Pro won't, than the lack of user-upgradable ram on the Intel Macbook series was.

It just amazes me that people can hold this doublethink that Apple can do anything with its chip designs as a result of owning the whole widget, while simultaneously believing they're unable to make workstation chips and architectures with any fundamental differences to mobile ones.
 
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Kung gu

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The exact same things were said about the 2019 before it was released - we had the prognostications of "darknetguy" who was all about the new Mac Pro being another proprietary 2013-esque machine, and then when the slottiest slotbox to ever slot out of Apple appeared, all sorts of painting the bullseye around the holes in the barn wall was offered to say that MPX fitted the wild speculation passed off as insider knowledge.

The Mac Pro exists to host PCI cards, period. Thunderbolt is a failed strategy to achieve that task, Apple is not going to go back to it.

The Mac Pro exists to grow its capabilities over its owner-lifespan in terms of memory and storage, period. The fact that the current M-series don't support user-upgradable ram is no more of an indication the Mac Pro won't, than the lack of user-upgradable ram on the Intel Macbook series was.

It just amazes me that people can hold this doublethink that Apple can do anything with its chip designs as a result of owning the whole widget, while simultaneously believing they're unable to make workstation chips and architectures with any fundamental differences to mobile ones.
The Intel Mac Pro will continue to exist for a while but there will be a Apple Sillicon Mac Pro that will be half the size of the current one.

I am saying it won't be upgradable because it the AS Mac Pro will be based on a SoC.
 

mattspace

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Jun 5, 2013
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The Intel Mac Pro will continue to exist for a while but there will be a Apple Sillicon Mac Pro that will be half the size of the current one.

I am saying it won't be upgradable because it the AS Mac Pro will be based on a SoC.

all of which is speculation, from people who are literally in the business of selling speculation.
 

macguru9999

macrumors 6502a
Aug 9, 2006
817
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If sales have dropped to zero, as i suspect, how motivated would they be to release a slightly updated intel 7,1 in the interim. ? I do not think they would do enough to make the specs/price attractive, if indeed that is even possible at this stage...
 

archimacpro

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Oct 24, 2016
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right, so what you want is just the Intel Mac Mini. You have no need for a "larger" cube decorative object, just the ARM equivalent of what was the standard Mini previously.
Yes - an AMD 3950, w 3080 etc etc, but running Mac. With apple reliability / stability / longevity. And silent, small, and well designed. (I hate the ugly s.. pc boxes. - the only thing worse than a pc box is Toyotas appalling dashboards in the current Hilux & G300)
Impossible w intel. Coming soon with Mac - I hope.
I already have 3 x well behaved M1 Mac mini's. Just need the macmini pro for a couple of my guys & me.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
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The Mac Pro exists to grow its capabilities over its owner-lifespan in terms of memory and storage, period. The fact that the current M-series don't support user-upgradable ram is no more of an indication the Mac Pro won't, than the lack of user-upgradable ram on the Intel Macbook series was.

Actually not. The Intel mobile GPUs in those Macs were perfectly capable of dealing with standard DIMMs. In fact, other system vendors use those exact same CPU to provision so-DIMMs on their laptop while Apple solders them down. It is an option that Intel designed into their solution. In part, because the memory controller design is shared between desktop and mobile CPU variants ( either in total or in very major implementation overlap) .

Apple M1's eight , 16-bit LPDDR4 memory controllers are custom. There pretty good chance they are design to only work with the semi-custom LPDDR4 packages that Apple specs friom one . or two, memory contractors to build. Those packages are always placed a fixed distance away for every SoC deployment.

Intel doesn't do that at all. They doesn't do memory controllers for RAM modules that only 1-2 vendors can buy/provision. it is a generic system building component so they build for a wider set of standards.

Apple may not be doing extensive validation of multiple RAM vendors and DIMM packagers. In fact, it is cheaper for them if they do not. It is also cheaper for Apple is they use their hyper custom RAM in as many systems as possible to use economy of scale to get the price down. ( if buy in quantiles of 10M or 100M units then prices get more reasonable. "churn out a bunch of stuff all year long for Apple"... sure there is a discount for that. )

I wouldn't bet the farm on them doing generate DIMMs if they have a "chopped down" memory controller in their systems. Even more so now now that the iMac 24" rolled out with an M1. Pretty than decent chance that the iMac large screen rolls out with something close to the MBP 16" SoC. If Apple does that then prospects for a Mac Pro SoC that has DIMMs is dimmer . There is no volume left for a 'forked' design.


If the iMac and upper spectrum Mini are on an optionally use DIMM path then I would be least skeptical. If the Jade2C and Jade4C bigger M-series show up and have non-homogenous, but still Unified , memory ( mix of LPDDR4 and GDDR6 ) that may open door too. On the other hand, if Apple "thins out " the iMac 27" as much as they did the iMac 24" ... that's a bad sign (i.e. the large screen becomes the "iMac Pro" like. ). If the iMac 27" still has DIMMs that's a good sign.

While Apple is super laser focused on homogenous, unified RAM ( and iGPUs everywhere. and yes that means Mac Pro too), DIMMs may be on a slippery slope.

Apple commiting to extending a Intel Mac Pro shipping as "new" out past end of 2022 that would be another indicator of that is a contributing reason of why it is being kept around. (because the "half sized" one is missing some functionality. Max memory capacity doesn't scale vey high (caps out around 128GB and completely skip ECC support as well as wider 3rd party vendor testing ) ).

There are lots of "dot the i and cross the t" things that AMD/Intel do for general system building support that Apple just may forego. Nobody else is buying Apple SoCs. If they think they don't need it, they don't have to add it in to their designs.

2 to 4 M-series iterations out perhaps they'll change their mind. ( akin to 2013-2019 Mac Pro Rip van Winkle slumber)

Mac Pro 2019 was always quite likely to use some Xeon W series solution. Those all support DIMMs so it didn't make much sense that Apple would avoid them in a large enclosure. Or support more than a couple of slots. Or being able to natively boot Windows. Not a shocker for those because a baseline for most of the Xeon W systems deployed.

Apple has zero track record of delivery a SoC of that type. None. They've put over half of the yearly Mac unit volume onto a single SoC ( M1).
 
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DFP1989

macrumors 6502
Jun 5, 2020
462
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Melbourne, Australia
It just amazes me that people can hold this doublethink that Apple can do anything with its chip designs as a result of owning the whole widget, while simultaneously believing they're unable to make workstation chips and architectures with any fundamental differences to mobile ones.
I’m perplexed by this as well. So many claim they “know” what Apple will do with AS Macs, when we literally have a single point of reference (M1), and it’s only the first one at that.

Nothing Apple has said or done precludes providing a more expandable and upgradable offering for higher-end use cases, while offering simpler solutions for everyday users.
 
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deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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If sales have dropped to zero, as i suspect, how motivated would they be to release a slightly updated intel 7,1 in the interim. ? I do not think they would do enough to make the specs/price attractive, if indeed that is even possible at this stage...

Larger block sales to mega media companies dropped to zero. But not all media production got hit like that. There are shortages because some businesses flush with cash are buying lots of stuff. That is why there are chip shortages. Some folks went down in purchases and some went up. Probably not going to hit zero when that happens. ( maybe something lower than expected but not zero).


Actually if look if some the WWDC videos of folks in a lab. One lab has 40 rack mac Pros like up on the wall in a 5 column x 8 high pattern.

XCode Cloud .... there is probably a large slew of Mini M1s but again Apple has likely racked up rows and rows of rack Mac Pros. MacStadium probably has been doing something similar ( they were buying pallets of Mac Pro 2013 right up until Apple stopped shipping them. They buy a higher multiple of pallets of Minis. ) . Pretty sure Azure has Mac instances. Amazon AWS has Mac instances. They fact that others were ramping up substantively large enough mac cloud services business probably drew Apple into doing it themselves. ( Pandemic "work from home" just threw more gas on the fire for Apple to put it top priority).

There is a reason why Apple did the rack version other than media "go carts".

I suspect Apple made a "no call" on the Mac Pro 2019 due to the pandemic . External noise put enough slop into the system. Pretty good chance also that some ground work was done on iMac Pro with W-Ice-Lake before it didn't pan out thermally wise (and M-series looked better than they thought it would be). If Intel had hit the projected marks with W-Ice-Lake (and AMD had been earlier) the iMac Pro could have hit the market around the same time Apple did the last iteration in 2020. Limping into 2021 and quietly dying seems like a strange long term plan.


Pretty good chance they aren't doing this as a "sales booster" as much as they need a longer stop=gap until sort out what going to do for a full sized M-series mac pro . This can give them data to figure out if they want to do that or not (and put some input adjustments into the M-series that will pop out of the development queue 2-3 years from now)
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
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I’m perplexed by this as well. So many claim they “know” what Apple will do with AS Macs, when we literally have a single point of reference (M1), and it’s only the first one at that.

Nothing Apple has said or done precludes providing a more expandable and upgradable offering for higher-end use cases, while offering simpler solutions for everyday users.

Supposedly the Apple Silicon Mac Pro is basically using a Jade4c/4 chiplet configuration of the Macbook Pro M1X CPU, according to Gurman. That's it right there. That would mean an integrated GPU. In fact, Gurman was quite specific that it _would_ be an integrated GPU.

Could Apple build an expandable Apple Silicon Mac? Sure. But all the leaked information so far is pointing dramatically away from expansion.

Upgradable RAM is kind of iffy. Because the AS Mac Pro is going to be based on the Macbook Pro, the Macbook Pro will give us hints. Generally, moving RAM away from the integrated GPU will hurt performance. Especially because the integrated GPU will be so bandwidth starved. RAM slots isn't impossible but kind of unlikely.

I agree with deconstruct60. They're stalling for time because their plan doesn't scale to larger Macs so far. Worst case we go back to the 2013 era where everyone has to beg Apple to go back to a slot Mac all over again.

Apple Silicon still doesn't have AMD GPU drivers. That's not a positive sign either.
 
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Kung gu

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Supposedly the Apple Silicon Mac Pro is basically using a Jade4c/4 chiplet configuration of the Macbook Pro M1X CPU, according to Gurman. That's it right there. That would mean an integrated GPU. In fact, Gurman was quite specific that it _would_ be an integrated GPU.
Yes, Gurman said 20 cores CPU and 64 corse GPU and 40 cores CPU and 128 GPU cores.

So there will be two variants of the Apple Sillicon Mac Pro.
I agree with deconstruct60. They're stalling for time because their plan doesn't scale to larger Macs so far. Worst case we go back to the 2013 era where everyone has to beg Apple to go back to a slot Mac all over again.
Apple will sell the Intel Mac Pro along side the Apple Sillicon one.
Apple Silicon still doesn't have AMD GPU drivers. That's not a positive sign either.
AMD drivers are never coming to Apple Sillicon
 

AndreeOnline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2014
704
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Zürich
Apple feels like they don't have to compete.

I believe they compete fiercely, just not on price. At least not in the sense that:

"here is a computer for $X and there is another for $Y"

It's very easy to take this discussion further, but it becomes sort of philosophical and rarely changes anything in the mind of those who are comfortable comparing "apples to.... whatever, as long as it's the same 'amount'".

I think if we let Apple do their thing, and let them work on producing their products with the smallest possible footprint on the environment, and try to respect trade laws as far as applicable, they will end up offering products that will find customers.

I think the most interesting aspect is this: there are so many products in the world that don't interest me. But I don't waste a single thought on them. How come that sometimes, people who are not interested in what Apple makes spend a lot of time talking about it?

?? This isn't meant as a stab at anyone, but more a general reflection.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
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Security Update 002 for Catalina introduced a problem with FileVault where the Mac wouldn't start up properly and show a prohibition sign instead. A reinstall of the whole system didn't help. It got resolved with the Security Update 003 a couple of weeks later.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/prohibitory-sign-on-mac-pro-7-1-after-security-update.2295893/

Was this issue exclusive to the 2019 Mac Pro? Or was it more widespread to other T2 Macs?

But if macOS *was* available on other hardware, the entire platform would be worse. Tight integration between hardware and software is the precise reason macOS is such a great user experience, and the diversity of hardware Windows has to be compatible with is exactly why it's such a messy, compromised experience.

This is a complete and total myth.

1) Build a Hackintosh and compare it to a similarly configured Intel 27" iMac. Display and design 100% aside, the iMac will run smoother for only one important reason: Apple includes the correct drivers for the components of the 27" iMac (among other Apple branded Macs) in the operating system out of the box and customized the bootloader to only boot Apple branded Macs. That's it. If you load compatible drivers that work and use a working third party bootloader, the experience is no less smooth. There's no "tight integration between hardware and software" nonsense at play here.

2) Buy a Windows PC. Not a crappy one like the ones sold at Walmart, Best Buy, or Costco. But buy something business class like a Dell Latitude. The right drivers are going to be pre-loaded. But even if you want to reload Windows yourself, reloading the 100% guaranteed correct drivers is painless and results in a system no less stable than that of any Intel Mac's installation of macOS. Some PCs are crap. But the notion that "the diversity of hardware Windows has to be compatible with is exactly why it's such a messy, compromised experience" shows that you know very little about Windows or why people sometimes (if not often) have messy and/or compromised experiences on it.

3) The only products where the "Tight Integration between hardware and software is the precise reason why ::insert Apple operating system here:: is such a great user experience" actually applies to any appreciable degree is with iPads, iPhones, Apple TVs, Apple Watches, and Macs with Apple Silicon. And even then, it doesn't always 100% apply because all of those products still have third party hardware components therein. The tight integration that is Apple's secret sauce is their SoC design and the operating system designed around that SoC design. You could make the case that the T2 helped bridge some of this in later era Intel Macs, but the notion that macOS HAS ALWAYS been a more stable platform than Windows due to "tight integration between hardware and software" is wrong at best and outright ridiculous at worst.


As for Apple losing the plot on Pro hardware if the MBP 14" and 16" drop the touchbar, have SD card and HDMI(like the rumours say) and great performance and start around the same price as the intel macbook they replace then Apple will have gained common sense back.
Bring back USB-A (in addition to already-there Thunderbolt 3/4 and USB4) and then we'll talk. Until then, "thinnovation" is still too much of a priority to be practical for a machine with "Pro" in its title.
 
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TiggrToo

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Aug 24, 2017
4,205
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I think Jobs groomed the wrong successor, but, you know, there was sort of a time crunch there I'd imagine.
This is what happens when you post guess and don't research.

If you'd checked first you'd find out that Jobs personally poached Tim from Compaq in 1997 which is where their relationship started.

[Tim] had the same vision I did, We could interact at a high strategic level, and I could just forget about a lot of things unless he came and pinged me.

Steve Jobs

Tim wasn't groomed by Steve. Steve had worked with him for long enough before to know he needed to take over, which is why Tim ran Apple for a time during Steve Jobs' a sense due to heath readons
 
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KeesMacPro

macrumors 65816
Nov 7, 2019
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there are so many products in the world that don't interest me. But I don't waste a single thought on them. How come that sometimes, people who are not interested in what Apple makes spend a lot of time talking about it?
I disagree on that point ; complete nonsense.

The fact that people talk/write a lot about a topic implies clearly that they are interested.

Are you sure people spending their time voluntarily to write on a Mac Forum are not interested in the topic itself , in this case: what Apple makes???

Criticism and a lack of interest are totally different things....
 
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Kung gu

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Bring back USB-A (in addition to already-there Thunderbolt 3/4 and USB4) and then we'll talk. Until then, "thinnovation" is still too much of a priority to be practical for a machine with "Pro" in its title.
I disagree HDMI is larger and thicker than USB-A. Apple is adding HDMI so "thinnovation" is not a priority.
Apple wants to move on from USB-A just like how the iMac moved from floppy disks.

IMO, USB-A is bad design.
 

Kung gu

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1) Build a Hackintosh and compare it to a similarly configured Intel 27" iMac. Display and design 100% aside, the iMac will run smoother for only one important reason: Apple includes the correct drivers for the components of the 27" iMac (among other Apple branded Macs) in the operating system out of the box and customized the bootloader to only boot Apple branded Macs. That's it. If you load compatible drivers that work and use a working third party bootloader, the experience is no less smooth. There's no "tight integration between hardware and software" nonsense at play here.
Agree with Intel Macs, but M1 is indeed tight integration between hardware and software.
 
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