Apple is falling behind, M4 Max nowhere close to RTX 5090.

[crazy dave]

that's fair, so what would be a good way to go about comparing apple silicon to Nvidia gpu?

I suppose it depends on what you want to do with your computer

also a well done priceerformance comparison would be interesting to see

high end discrete gpu's are expensive for sure, but so is adding an 80 core gpu to a Mac Studio...

Unfortunately for compute there aren't a lot of great options since GB 6 dropped CUDA (and I'm even having trouble getting to the GB 5 search now - though GB 5 compute had its own issues especially with the M1 Ultra, but that's another story and I don't know about its interactions with later chips since it was superseded by GB 6). Graphics and rendering benchmarks - Steel Nomad Light (and soon full), Wild Life Extreme, Solar Bay, Blender, Cinebench R24 GPU - still work though.

fair enough, that's why I linked specifically to the Metal benchmarks page, which is dominated by AMD

Though that does suffer the problem @OptimusGrime mentioned that binned and full models are clumped together so that the full M3 Ultra should be the top spot, the full M2 Ultra and M4 Max should be about 2-4 spots higher than they are, etc ... Basically it wouldn't look quite so dominated by AMD if the chart was done correctly.

 

[nathansz]

Though that does suffer the problem @OptimusGrime mentioned that binned and full models are clumped together so that the full M3 Ultra should be the top spot, the full M2 Ultra and M4 Max should be about 2-4 spots higher than they are, etc ... Basically it wouldn't look quite so dominated by AMD if the chart was done correctly.

I see what you and @OptimusGrime are saying now

I don't think I ever noticed that they were averages (even though it's in the explanation, very much my error there) because their is so much variation in the amd chip names

 

[oink_oink]

Soon, even a Nintendo Switch or Steam Deck will surpass the Mac in raw power.
Apple better get its act together or it will never be taken seriously for gaming!

 

[Jumpthesnark]

Let’s see:

Cropped screenshots as graphs, no link to source, and exactly two (2) tests, one of which is a single game and the other an OpenGL compute benchmark.

I would take OP’s statements with a huge dose of salt.

Exactly this. I can use Canva or a thousand other apps to make some graphs that say anything I want them to say and start a thread right now. Without a linked source so all readers can engage with the same set of information, and discuss whether the numbers presented are accurate, or whether (as some commenters have said) the source is just clickbait, the thread doesn't have much value.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The M4 Max GPU starts at 32 cores, where did they find a 20 cores version?

Apparently a typo. BUT, it’s always a telling sign when someone is SO careful with their details that they don’t even feel it’s necessary to create an image that’s accurate.

 

[Homy]

that's fair, so what would be a good way to go about comparing apple silicon to Nvidia gpu?

Optimized comparable apps for each GPU, like Blender.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Trying to compare S/C high fidelity macOS computers with mono Windows systems is a fools errand. Mac is not a PC and never will be.

And the most important thing a Mac has to do is run macOS. Show benchmarks running Logic Pro or Final Cut Pro, then let’s chat!

 

[nathansz]

And the most important thing a Mac has to do is run macOS. Show benchmarks running Logic Pro or Final Cut Pro, then let’s chat!

true

although my intel 14700k/rx6800 PC ran macOS just fine, specifically Logic Pro much better then my current m4 pro MacBook.

though it was artificially locked out of most new features

 

[nathansz]

Optimized comparable apps for each GPU, like Blender.

so like this? where you see apple silicon way down the list?

Blender - Open Data

Blender Open Data is a platform to collect, display and query the results of hardware and software performance tests - provided by the public.

opendata.blender.org

 

[OptimusGrime]

so like this? where you see apple silicon way down the list?

Blender - Open Data

Blender Open Data is a platform to collect, display and query the results of hardware and software performance tests - provided by the public.

opendata.blender.org

Way down? How are you defining that?

 

[nathansz]

Way down? How are you defining that?

not at the top, only 2 in the top 25, 5 in the top 50, etc

I dunno, the numbers are what they are, you can call it "way down" or "nearly the best"

whatever you want

 

[HiVolt]

Trying to compare S/C high fidelity macOS computers with mono Windows systems is a fools errand. Mac is not a PC and never will be.

LOL, what areyou babbling about?

This is about gaming performance. A Mac has never come close to a PC in terms of maximum gaming performance, and likely never will.

 

[OptimusGrime]

not at the top, only 2 in the top 25, 5 in the top 50, etc

I dunno, the numbers are what they are, you can call it "way down" or "nearly the best"

whatever you want

It’s just behind the 5070 Ti. Way ahead of AMD and Intel. Yes Nvidia has higher end cards with better performance but 11th is pretty good. I think people need more realistic expectations. It feels like it’s viewed as either you’re number one or you’re dirt.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

true

although my intel 14700k/rx6800 PC ran macOS just fine, specifically Logic Pro much better then my current m4 pro MacBook.

though it was artificially locked out of most new features

So, your Windows desktop ran macOS “just fine”, and that 300+ Watt desktop outperformed a laptop?

I really can’t bring myself anywhere close to feeling shocked to find that a 300 Watt desktop outperformed a laptop pulling FAR less power. It’s as true now as it has ever been, if anyone wants a peak performance system, don’t look at/for a Mac. Apple has actively been pushing the tiny number of folks that need high end Intel/Nvidia systems and NOT macOS out the door for years and they’ve been pretty successful at it! And, at the same time, selling more Macs than they have in years.

They know what’s the right thing to focus on.

 

[nathansz]

So, your Windows desktop ran macOS “just fine”, and that 300+ Watt desktop outperformed a laptop?

I really can’t bring myself anywhere close to feeling shocked to find that a 300 Watt desktop outperformed a laptop pulling FAR less power. It’s as true now as it has ever been, if anyone wants a peak performance system, don’t look at/for a Mac. Apple has actively been pushing the tiny number of folks that need high end Intel/Nvidia systems and NOT macOS out the door for years and they’ve been pretty successful at it! And, at the same time, selling more Macs than they have in years.

They know what’s the right thing to focus on.

I don’t disagree

There are reasons I have the mbp now and sold off the pc

 

[HiVolt]

Desktop PC Gamers don't care about watts. neither do PC laptop gamers.

PC gaming laptops exist because there is a market for them.

High end gaming was never a priority for Apple, even in the days of being able to have dedicated 3rd party graphic cards, they kept making it more difficult for game developers to make games, and they resisted into giving users a choice of the better nVidia graphics on the Intel platform because they were still butthurt from the issues from many years ago.

Apple's idea of gaming on Apple Silicon is for you to subscribe to Apple Arcade.

 

[nathansz]

Desktop PC Gamers don't care about watts. neither do PC laptop gamers.

PC gaming laptops exist because there is a market for them.

High end gaming was never a priority for Apple, even in the days of being able to have dedicated 3rd party graphic cards, they kept making it more difficult for game developers to make games, and they resisted into giving users a choice of the better nVidia graphics on the Intel platform because they were still butthurt from the issues from many years ago.

Apple's idea of gaming on Apple Silicon is for you to subscribe to Apple Arcade.

I would posit that Apple has no interest in gaming

If they can sell a casual mobile gaming subscription, even on tvOS and macOS, they’ll take the money

When I was still running a gaming rig I couldn’t care less how much electricity it was using, evidenced by the 1000 watt power supply

 

[Abazigal]

Soon, even a Nintendo Switch or Steam Deck will surpass the Mac in raw power.
Apple better get its act together or it will never be taken seriously for gaming!

I am fine with this arrangement, actually. Get a Switch for dedicated gaming, while doing everything else on my Mac. Heck, I even have some decent older games on my iPad which I go back to now and then (slay the spire, grimvalor, battle heart legacy).

The only downside is that Diablo 2 resurrected was not made available for the Mac, and it's a pain to play with a game controller on the Switch.

Outside of that, I don't really have much time to game these days, so I guess you don't miss what you don't need. 😛

 

[galad]

Please try to anchor this thread a bit to reality. "Switch 2 going to be faster" it's not.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

true

although my intel 14700k/rx6800 PC ran macOS just fine, specifically Logic Pro much better then my current m4 pro MacBook.

though it was artificially locked out of most new features

How much RAM in which MacBook? I would expect an M4 MacBook Pro Max chip with 128 GB RAM to run Logic Pro better than the described desktop. Mac's Unified Memory Architecture uses RAM for everything and limiting RAM limits performance. Plus of course you are comparing a hot noisy desktop against a laptop.

If you are talking about a lower end lesser RAM MBA, well of course it underperforms.

 

[Homy]

so like this? where you see apple silicon way down the list?

Blender - Open Data

Blender Open Data is a platform to collect, display and query the results of hardware and software performance tests - provided by the public.

opendata.blender.org

Like this. The list is 13 pages long and M3 Ultra is on the first page (place 12 and 15) and M4 Max on the second page (place 28 and 36).

So M3 Ultra is almost as fast as dekstop 5070 Ti which has a TGP of 300W. M4 Max 40c is as fast as a desktop 4070 which has a TGP of 200W. M4 Max 32c is faster than desktop 7900 XTX which has a TGP of 355W.

There are no results for mobile 5090 yet but there's nothing odd about a desktop 5090 with a TGP of 575W alone being about 2x faster than Mac Studio M3 Ultra which has a max load of 270W for the entire computer.

 

[nathansz]

would expect an M4 MacBook Pro Max chip with 128 GB RAM to run Logic Pro better than the described desktop.

For about 6x the price i should hope so!!!

Though I doubt it actually. the pc never had an issue with ram

If you run logic benchmark test it scales pretty consistently with cpu regardless of ram

 

[nathansz]

Like this. The list is 13 pages long and M3 Ultra is on the first page (place 12 and 15) and M4 Max on the second page (place 28 and 36).

So M3 Ultra is almost as fast as dekstop 5070 Ti which has a TGP of 300W. M4 Max 40c is as fast as a desktop 4070 which has a TGP of 200W. M4 Max 32c is faster than desktop 7900 XTX which has a TGP of 355W.

There are no results for mobile 5090 yet but there's nothing odd about a desktop 5090 with a TGP of 575W alone being about 2x faster than Mac Studio M3 Ultra which has a max load of 270W for the entire computer.

View attachment 2499315View attachment 2499316View attachment 2499317View attachment 2499322View attachment 2499323

And how much is that 80 core m3 ultra?

 

[Homy]

And how much is that 80 core m3 ultra?

How much what? The price? We're comparing the performance not the price but it costs $5500. Can you find a 5090 to buy? You have to buy a system to get one. Here is a 1600W 5090 tower system for the same price with 32GB RAM.

 

[leman]

Like this. The list is 13 pages long and M3 Ultra is on the first page (place 12 and 15) and M4 Max on the second page (place 28 and 36).

So M3 Ultra is almost as fast as dekstop 5070 Ti which has a TGP of 300W. M4 Max 40c is as fast as a desktop 4070 which has a TGP of 200W. M4 Max 32c is faster than desktop 7900 XTX which has a TGP of 355W.

There are no results for mobile 5090 yet but there's nothing odd about a desktop 5090 with a TGP of 575W alone being about 2x faster than Mac Studio M3 Ultra which has a max load of 270W for the entire computer.

View attachment 2499315View attachment 2499316View attachment 2499317View attachment 2499322View attachment 2499323

Something to consider in addition is that 5070 Ti has 8090 shading units running at 2.4Ghz while M3 Ultra has 10240 shading units running at ~1.4Ghz, so the Nvidia GPU has a lead of 30-40% in performance. Apple’s architectural efficiency is something else indeed. Where they lag behind is raw clock, price, and compute density, which makes it a less attractive value proposition. At the same time, I am optimistic that next-gen Apple Silicon will address these shortcomings (although the economical turmoil caused by current US government could set the industry back).