Apple knows where the money is...

[Toronto Mike]

Sadly I suspect that you are right. But the problem Apple may face is that they have to maintain a big enough user base for companies like Adobe to bother to update their Mac versions of software. Already the pc version of CS4 is more advanced than the Mac version.

A high priced mac pro may be acceptable (reluctantly) to pros who have a big investment in software and training in place but it will not be tempting to switchers from the pc world and gradually even pros may make the switch away from Apple if they think that support is diminishing. But I suspect that Apple are not that bothered. They would prefer to just sell consumer products but will keep a nominal pro presence because it would be bad PR to drop the line completely.

I think that you have hit the nail on the head of what Apple could be facing in the future if they do not seriously address the issues that many of you are discussing here with respect to maintaining a commitment to the professional users.

As a recent example of removing the express card slot in the MacBook Pro in favor of a SD card reader slot. Now the pros that counted on the express card slot to insert a Sata port to have the possibility of a portable raid solution for external drives when traveling is SOL. Seriously, when Apple does this, or make only glossy screens for the MacBook Pro, that takes the "Pro" out of the equation.

Alienate enough pro users long enough and they will start thinking of going over to the PC side to get to hardware they need. If that trend ever got going and was persistent - Adobe would drop Apple as being irrelevant to a return on their investment. Very little in the way of updates and continuing support for the Mac Pro supporter at that point.

Apple would be then left with only the consumer. However, the consumer I'd say has just about bought up all the technology they need for the less demanding things they do now. They will not be back soon in this economy to keep upgrading. Apple's consumer hardware sales might be at a plateau now. If they want to even maintain what they have accomplished, I think they need to rethink who their core supporters are in the long term.

Mike

 

[Tesselator]

The Antec P180 has been out for years now. The revised version fixes a few issues the original had and it can be picked up for $79.99 if you know where to look.

You also have every other P Series case at your disposable. They're made for expansion and quietness. Even the mini version is built like a rock.

This: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article249-page4.html ? Yeah... No. That's still light gauge tin. I'm talking about heavy gauge aluminum cases like the Mac Pro is. Where the empty case all by itself seems to weigh too much. That looks lie a nice PC case tho - especially for $80!

 

[doox00]

This: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article249-page4.html ? Yeah... No. That's still light gauge tin. I'm talking about heavy gauge aluminum cases like the Mac Pro is. Where the empty case all by itself seems to weigh too much. That looks lie a nice PC case tho - especially for $80!

You can also get cooler masters and other brands that are aluminum and so on. There are literally hundreds of brands of just cases for the pc world in all shapes/sizes/colors/lights/windows quality and so on.

 

[nanofrog]

This: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article249-page4.html ? Yeah... No. That's still light gauge tin. I'm talking about heavy gauge aluminum cases like the Mac Pro is. Where the empty case all by itself seems to weigh too much. That looks lie a nice PC case tho - especially for $80!

I tend to lean towards Lian Li towers myself.

 

[Animalk]

Original iMac, actually.

The IPod saved Apple. First and foremost, it gave apple enough money to fix itself. Two, they cloned the development pipeline of both hardware and software from the ipod. Apple was a disorganized mess pre-ipod.

The company was too tied up with passed mistakes and directions that it was drowning itself at an alarming rate. You can sum up this particular point in Apple's history by Michael Dell's famous words about Apple.

In came NextStep and a brand new unix centered operating system that forced them to relearn how to make their software which in turn molded their hardware. Their first taste of unix was with the IPod project which enlightened them on what needs to be done with their flagship operating system (ie "Move to Trash").

Not only did the IPod give Apple enough financial cushion to take the risk (make no mistake, it was a huge risk) of starting from scratch but it also encouraged it to take the right risk by using what they had learned from that project.

Now Apple clearly didn't have everything wrong back then as much of what was right then is still very present today.

 

[sushi]

The IPod saved Apple. <snip>

Hardware wise, it was the original Bondi Blue iMac that saved Apple. It was the first Mac launched by SJ after his return.

Additionally after his return, SJ cancelled the clones, eliminated the Newton platform (), and reduced Apple's lineup to a pro laptop and desktop and a consumer laptop and desktop.

Some years later the iPod was introduced so that Mac users could have a decent music player. At that time there were many music players available for the PC platform but very few worked with the Mac platform. Apple wanted to give their users a decent portable music player and the original iPod was the result.

The original iPod worked only with the Mac and used FW for it's connection. Later, Apple introduced a version that worked with USB and FW. You had to select a Mac version or a PC version when you purchased the iPod. (Or you could reformat the iPod's HD for the other platform if you knew what you were doing.) Eventually, as the iPod became more popular on the PC platform, FW was dropped and USB became the sole connection. Apple dropped Mac and PC versions of the iPod and only released one version for both platforms.

There were many evolutionary changes to the iPod concept before what we have today. Now you can easily purchase your iPod of choice and it will work cross platform seamlessly.

Since the introduction of the original iMac, the iPod, introduction of Mac OS X and the switch to Intel have continued to spur sales.

But it all started back when SJ returned and the Bondi Blue iMac was introduced.

 

[Animalk]

Hardware wise, it was the original Bondi Blue iMac that saved Apple. It was the first Mac launched by SJ after his return.

Additionally after his return, SJ cancelled the clones, eliminated the Newton platform (), and reduced Apple's lineup to a pro laptop and desktop and a consumer laptop and desktop.

Some years later the iPod was introduced so that Mac users could have a decent music player. At that time there were many music players available for the PC platform but very few worked with the Mac platform. Apple wanted to give their users a decent portable music player and the original iPod was the result.

The original iPod worked only with the Mac and used FW for it's connection. Later, Apple introduced a version that worked with USB and FW. You had to select a Mac version or a PC version when you purchased the iPod. (Or you could reformat the iPod's HD for the other platform if you knew what you were doing.) Eventually, as the iPod became more popular on the PC platform, FW was dropped and USB became the sole connection. Apple dropped Mac and PC versions of the iPod and only released one version for both platforms.

There were many evolutionary changes to the iPod concept before what we have today. Now you can easily purchase your iPod of choice and it will work cross platform seamlessly.

Since the introduction of the original iMac, the iPod, introduction of Mac OS X and the switch to Intel have continued to spur sales.

But it all started back when SJ returned and the Bondi Blue iMac was introduced.

I think there is a disagreement here on the ups and downs at Apple between us. While I agree the the IMac you speak of was definitely a positive for apple, It was only an upward tremor in what was a giant downward hill. I believe that is the key difference between my position and yours.

From what I was told, it was not the moment that steve jobs returned to Apple that saved the company. He was definitely sensitive and aware to the fact that something was very very wrong at Apple and that in itself was admittedly a breath of fresh air and a positive change at Apple. But the game changing eureka moment came when Steve Jobs realized what had occurred within the IPod project. The real new Apple was born at that moment.

Everything that happened between his return and that moment above can be summed up, in my opinion, as Apple trying very hard to find its identity and place in the computing world. The direction, philosophy and ideologies of the Apple we know today, are largely thanks to the IPod. What happened before that is merely the search for that direction.

 

[VirtualRain]

The direction, philosophy and ideologies of the Apple we know today, are largely thanks to the IPod. What happened before that is merely the search for that direction.

QFT! And the reason why I think Apple has focused it's knitting on consumer products ever since then.

BTW, there's some great debate and discussion in this thread, I'm going to go back and re-read a lot of it now. Good stuff!

 

[Dreamail]

But the game changing eureka moment came when Steve Jobs realized what had occurred within the IPod project. The real new Apple was born at that moment.

How much of that can be attributed solely to Jon Rubinstein, who headed the iPod division?
And how much of a loss was it when he left Apple?
How well does this bode for Palm's future?

 

[VirtualRain]

How much of that can be attributed solely to Jon Rubinstein, who headed the iPod division?
And how much of a loss was it when he left Apple?
How well does this bode for Palm's future?

Upon further reflection, I think the turning point for Apple was not just the iPod but the amazing deals that Jobs struck with all the recording labels to make music available on iTunes. This really pulled the rug out from under everyone else in the industry and gave joe consumer a legitimate, convenient and affordable source for digital music. Arguably, licensing the music was even more important than the iPod itself.

Now, we are all witnessing a repeat of the iPod/iTunes phenomenon with the iPhone/Appstore... it's the same thing all over again... an innovative device... but instead of the music this time, it's the apps. As a result, Apple may own the consumer phone market in a few years just like they own the digital music business today.

I don't have a lot of faith in Palm's ability to be anything more than a sideline player.

What surprises me, is that Apple has neglected the AppleTV product which could be as big or bigger than the iPod/iTunes phenomenon or the iPhone/Appstore. Hmmm.

While this has veered somewhat off topic, I guess the corollary to all this is that the Mac Pro is a tertiary product at best for Apple.

So except for that rare 5 year period, Macintosh desktops have always been a secondary focus for Apple. A niche market for power users and mostly the art and publishing industries. Apple's consumer, education and general business market focus for Macs otherwise has always been compactness, portability and non-expandability. In short, Apple has never successfully focussed its Macintosh business plan on expandable consumer desktops, so there's really no news value in wondering if they'll focus their efforts elsewhere when they never did in the first place.

Reading back through some of the posts... I found your comment above... I really hadn't looked at it this way... but you are absolutely correct. I think Steve's vision for the computer was always as an appliance. I guess the Mac Pro is really a departure from his vision and possibly out of necessity to ensure the lucrative niche content creation market continues to buy Apple's super high margin pro software. <shrug>

 

[awmazz]

I think there is a disagreement here on the ups and downs at Apple between us. While I agree the the IMac you speak of was definitely a positive for apple, It was only an upward tremor in what was a giant downward hill. I believe that is the key difference between my position and yours.

I agree with Sushi, the original iMac in 1998 was the turning point, and it still ran OS9 as the 'NeXT=OSX' thing was still in the pipeline at that point. As pointed out, the first iPod in 2001 was three years later and only ran on Macs (for PCs a year later), so it was that renewed consumer iMac market growth which provided the successful foundation for iPod sales. Basically building blocks all coming together in the right order and at the right time, so the iMac needed to be successful first for a Mac-only iPod to succeed as well or it would likely have gone the same way as the Apple QuickTake camera in the 1990s.

 

[awmazz]

I wonder if it really is tho? For me personally it's not. I don't have the Apple product time-line in my head tho. I do have a closet full of "expandable desktops" from Apple though. There were 15 some models based on the motorola's 68000 architecture, then probably another 30 or so different products based on the PPC. All "desktops" and all had easy open cases with local bus card slots, RAM slots, and other special user accessible expansion areas. My own collection ranges from Mac II, IIfx, and IIci to the PowerMac 8xxx series of which I have 3 different models. I got all of my 10 or 12 powermacs for free too.

Consumer desktop pretty much means the 'affordable tower' so many people on this forum are constantly clamouring for Apple to release. Apple never really has done one of those and will unlikely ever do especially now considering the slump in sales of those types of desktops mentioned in the original post.

The Macintosh II was indeed an expandable desktop, the most expandable of any Mac desktop ever made with *six* slots! But it was purely for power users and priced accordingly (higher even than Mac Pros today) way out of the average consumer's reach. Only the compact Macs were within the consumer price point, just like the iMac versus the Mac Pro today. Here's an ad from MacWorld magazine in 1990:

 

[awmazz]

Blll Gates loves him those expandable desktops, even if it's a Macintosh II. I think though he was just flogging the DOS expandability card in this pic. Either that or he doesn't know how to turn it on. The power button on the keyboard could be tricky for some people not familiar with Macs.

 

[Inconsequential]

That case I listed is a solid heavy case as well, my pc I am on now is a P182.. very nice case. Not sure what retail mac pro apple cases cost but I am sure they are super inflated as well

I selected a pc power and cooling 750 because they are one of the best power supplies you can buy, super efficient and usually under rated.. you can change it to 1k watt one for a little more money though.

Point being.. Apple lower your prices on Mac Pros so I can buy one!!

Had that case, not a patch on the MP case.

And the PC&C may be good (again, i've had their PSUs) its not 1KW @ 85 or 90%?

I've had about 5/6/7 years of hardcore overclocking, and even tho it was fun pushing hardware to the utter, utter limits, I have no desire to go back to it.

I haven't found a case as well designed and made as a MP case tbh, and I've had a few

 

[blackhand1001]

Why do you think apple really never went after the business sector. More numbers with consumers. More sales with consumers. I've been one of those who want, sometimes needs, the latest and greatest for the last 25 years. When you give a little device like the iPhone video editing (although small) capabilities, you don't need a mac pro. Those of use who do semi to pro editing will need the mac pro but our numbers are dwindling. Look at the home media centers like hp's. A box with a jbod setup. You can let devices like the apple tv or tivos do the encoding for tv's and such. Hate to say it but the desktop as we know it will change tremendously. The folks with the deep pockets will be the only ones able to afford these monster computers.

Jeez you really don't know the industry. The business sector is a much larger market than the consumer market. Things like payed support and large deployment go on in businesses and there is a ton of money in those. Why do you think IBM does so well. Because they know the enterprise ridiculously well. Go to almost any retail store and you'll find POS systems from IBM. Or go to almost any large office building and you'll find business oriented Dell or HP desktops.

 

[Animalk]

I agree with Sushi, the original iMac in 1998 was the turning point, and it still ran OS9 as the 'NeXT=OSX' thing was still in the pipeline at that point. As pointed out, the first iPod in 2001 was three years later and only ran on Macs (for PCs a year later), so it was that renewed consumer iMac market growth which provided the successful foundation for iPod sales. Basically building blocks all coming together in the right order and at the right time, so the iMac needed to be successful first for a Mac-only iPod to succeed as well or it would likely have gone the same way as the Apple QuickTake camera in the 1990s.

But the IPod was not a success until after becoming windows compatible.

 

[arjen92]

In the future desktops will be most likely be replaced with servers. Instead of having big things in house, which you have to mantain and is only accessible from home.

I think in the future people will have small interface boxes to plug your input and output on. Servers at big serverparks will perform everything.

Don't believe it will be fast enough? ATI tested servers to play normal pc games. Everything was calculated at their servers, you only need a pc to receive the signal. You don't need a monsterpc to play the game.

 

[Boneoh]

In the future desktops will be most likely be replaced with servers. Instead of having big things in house, which you have to mantain and is only accessible from home.

I think in the future people will have small interface boxes to plug your input and output on. Servers at big serverparks will perform everything.

Don't believe it will be fast enough? ATI tested servers to play normal pc games. Everything was calculated at their servers, you only need a pc to receive the signal. You don't need a monsterpc to play the game.

This is a cycle that repeats over time. I've watched the pendulum swing back and forth several times over the last 30 years.

Centralize, then de-centralize. Mainframe, then mini. Supercomputer, then PC. Then Server. Both approaches have issues. Centralized generally drives costs up over time due to growth of staff, inertia, bureaucracy, etc. Decentralized winds up adding costs of supporting a wider variety of h/w/, s/w, training, etc. Neither is inherently bad, it depends on the organization.

Personally, I don't have an issue with outsourced computing. I've had excellent service and support from Rackspace the past couple of years.

 

[Infrared]

I think there is a disagreement here on the ups and downs at Apple between us. While I agree the the IMac you speak of was definitely a positive for apple, It was only an upward tremor in what was a giant downward hill. I believe that is the key difference between my position and yours.

Yes. Apple were again losing money in 2001 and were weak in the years
immediately thereafter. Profits didn't pick up significantly until 2005. That
was the critical year, the year when iPod sales increased dramatically:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ipod_sales_per_quarter.svg

 

[Tesselator]

Consumer desktop pretty much means the 'affordable tower' so many people on this forum...

I think that's what it means to you. I highly doubt that most people here think so tho. No offense. Consumer Grade Desktop is any desktop form factor computer created with consumer grade parts. Price point is separate and apart from the machines' class. If people here think otherwise then they're out of step with fairly common industry defined terminology. An overpriced Home PC, or "consumer desktop" is still a Home PC or Consumer Grade Desktop - it's just also overpriced!

There are basically three common grades with varying amounts of overlap: Home PC, Workstation, Server. And several common form-factors: Laptop, Portable, All-in-one Desktop, Desktop, desktop turned on it's side is a Mid Tower, and then there's Full Tower, Blade System or "Rack Mount", and etc. etc. These terms are not defined by price and price is not a determinate factor.


.

 

[Big Boss Man]

It would be dangerous for Apple to think of the Mac Pro as a single isolated product line. I recently got an MBP and LED ACD to run Logic. I plan to add a Mac Pro eventually because I need the PCI express slots for an Apogee Symphony interface and UAD-2 cards. If Apple were to drop the Mac Pro, I would drop the Mac completely. No more laptops, monitors, software or anything else. All those sales to me would be lost.

 

[Gonk42]

It would be dangerous for Apple to think of the Mac Pro as a single isolated product line. I recently got an MBP and LED ACD to run Logic. I plan to add a Mac Pro eventually because I need the PCI express slots for an Apogee Symphony interface and UAD-2 cards. If Apple were to drop the Mac Pro, I would drop the Mac completely. No more laptops, monitors, software or anything else. All those sales to me would be lost.

Very true. It is the mistake that Beeching made when he made vicious cuts to the railways in the UK in the sixties. He looked at the branch lines and on their own they were all under utilised and lost money so he cut them and then there were no branch lines to feed passengers into the main lines! And we're still living with the sad legacy of the stupidity.