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manu chao

macrumors 604
Jul 30, 2003
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I "don't want" lossless no matter what, I already have lossless and enjoy it. I want lossless to be enjoyed by everyone else too just like Steve had his engineers and designers implement good typography in the first Mac up to the new Macs and trickled it down to all their devices and packaging and as a brand. It takes people like Steve until their deathbed to keep going and challenging the status quo.
I don't think it is a question that the majority of people cannot tell the difference between 256 kbit/s AAC and lossless. Whenever somebody has carried out such tests, the majority couldn't tell the difference. And if you do these tests using the people's own equipment (eg, iPhones with standard headphones) an even larger percentage couldn't tell the difference. That doesn't mean that no-one can hear the difference but whether that is 1% or 15%, I don't know. And you might set up these tests more broadly, asking people how they enjoyed the music, ie, checking if there is some subconscious benefit.

And you might do the same in regard to typography. Since I enjoy good typography, even though I am by far no expert, I would say that at least a large minority somehow, at least subconsciously, notices a difference between good and bad typography (though it might be harder to define what good typography is than testing it). The problem with typography (and I think more so than with music compression) is that good or bad by the layman might be based to a good deal on association, think scientific papers vs first term student's reports. This can go as far that association with something positive can actually make people enjoy and value something a product more.
 

SDAVE

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I am listening to an album on Apple Music at the moment. The same album that I have in my FLAC collection (Mind you, it's a lowly 44/16).

I can TOTALLY tell the difference on my HD650 + Woo Audio WA7. It is even worse on the HD700. Anyone who disagrees that original source and compressed are the same in terms of "enjoyment" or "listening experience" is insane and missing out.
 

SDAVE

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I don't think it is a question that the majority of people cannot tell the difference between 256 kbit/s AAC and lossless. Whenever somebody has carried out such tests, the majority couldn't tell the difference. And if you do these tests using the people's own equipment (eg, iPhones with standard headphones) an even larger percentage couldn't tell the difference. That doesn't mean that no-one can hear the difference but whether that is 1% or 15%, I don't know. And you might set up these tests more broadly, asking people how they enjoyed the music, ie, checking if there is some subconscious benefit.

And you might do the same in regard to typography. Since I enjoy good typography, even though I am by far no expert, I would say that at least a large minority somehow, at least subconsciously, notices a difference between good and bad typography (though it might be harder to define what good typography is than testing it). The problem with typography (and I think more so than with music compression) is that good or bad by the layman might be based to a good deal on association, think scientific papers vs first term student's reports. This can go as far that association with something positive can actually make people enjoy and value something a product more.

I think you said something that resonates with what this original thread is about..... "the audience knows subconsciously". This is why I mentioned it's more about feeling especially people who are the audience and not the content creators. The audience can tell if a movie is edited well or if the sound is good in the theaters, they just can't explain it.

I think if people are given a chance to enjoy Lossless, they would totally jump on it. You don't have to be any kind of phile to enjoy good things in life or the way artists intended for us to listen to music.

I could even say, when I see a famous painting up close, I enjoy it more than I do in a photo inside of a book or online. It is tough to equate this to Lossless, but it's a decent analogy.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
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u toss info away when u compress.

Personal preference,, i can't tell the difference..


I would always say just by the fact its smaller file size, means less quality, and if it's less quality, the they'll be a difference in quality. Maybe big, maybe small

Weather u'r aware or not.
 
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manu chao

macrumors 604
Jul 30, 2003
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I think if people are given a chance to enjoy Lossless, they would totally jump on it. You don't have to be any kind of phile to enjoy good things in life or the way artists intended for us to listen to music.
Like they are jumping from Spotify to Tidal?
Like they are jumping from Apple's earphones to better ones?
 

SDAVE

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 16, 2007
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u toss info away when u compress.

Personal preference,, i can't tell the difference..


I would always say just by the fact its smaller file size, means less quality, and if it's less quality, the they'll be a difference in quality. Maybe big, maybe small

Weather u'r aware or not.

People are listening to inferior music when CD's went away.

Like they are jumping from Spotify to Tidal?
Like they are jumping from Apple's earphones to better ones?

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” — Henry Ford
 

Rigby

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2008
6,257
10,215
San Jose, CA
I am listening to an album on Apple Music at the moment. The same album that I have in my FLAC collection (Mind you, it's a lowly 44/16).

I can TOTALLY tell the difference on my HD650 + Woo Audio WA7.
If you seriously think this is a way to compare encoding schemes, I don't know what to tell you. You just compared music from two different sources (that very likely was processed in different ways for distribution and perhaps even originates from different masters), played the files back using different playback software, and probably did not level-match them either. And of course you did not bother to do the test blind.

Do yourself a favor and run some proper ABX tests (or even better, double-blind tests with some friends if possible). I can almost guarantee it will be an eye opener for you.
 

qap

macrumors 6502a
Mar 29, 2011
558
441
Italy
Like they are jumping from Spotify to Tidal?
Like they are jumping from Apple's earphones to better ones?

Both done :D

I agree with SDAVE, Apple puts a great DAC inside the iPhone (especially the 6) but for what? Give us the option to choose between HiFi and normal, like already is on TIDAL. For $20 instead $10 you should be able to play 16bit/44KHz files.

Maybe there isn't this option cause Apple has already converted all the music in AAC 256 and the HiFi option will arrive later. I hope!
 

navaira

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,936
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Amsterdam, Netherlands
While SDAVE thinks I'm insane ;) I actually agree with him that there should be a high quality option available where you can stream lossless. I don't need it, but I'm pretty sure lots of people would be willing to pay for it. Why not make it available (and kill off the miserable remains of TIDAL in the process)?
 

manu chao

macrumors 604
Jul 30, 2003
7,224
3,031
While SDAVE thinks I'm insane ;) I actually agree with him that there should be a high quality option available where you can stream lossless. I don't need it, but I'm pretty sure lots of people would be willing to pay for it. Why not make it available (and kill off the miserable remains of TIDAL in the process)?
Given that there hasn't been a lossless option in the iTunes Store, in fact nothing has changed nominally in regard to encoding which has remained at 256 kbit/s AAC since 2009, I would not hold my breath for lossless streaming any time soon.
 
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SDAVE

macrumors 68040
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If you seriously think this is a way to compare encoding schemes, I don't know what to tell you. You just compared music from two different sources (that very likely was processed in different ways for distribution and perhaps even originates from different masters), played the files back using different playback software, and probably did not level-match them either. And of course you did not bother to do the test blind.

Do yourself a favor and run some proper ABX tests (or even better, double-blind tests with some friends if possible). I can almost guarantee it will be an eye opener for you.

I don't trust anyone except my own ears, thank you very much.

No offense SDAVE, but you label so many people insane that I'm wondering if you're working for Big Pharma...

As opposed to Small Pharma?
 

Uofmtiger

macrumors 68020
Dec 11, 2010
2,353
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Memphis
Apple had two tiers once. If I remember the details correctly it was 128 kbit/s DRM-ed AAC for $0.99 and 256 kbit/s DRM-free AAC for $1.29.
So, at one time they though 128 was good enough and now they don't. Maybe there is hope for lossless after all.

If my own experience and study after study confirm that there is no audible difference, I'm confident enough to enjoy my music without further worrying about it. Just as I'm confident in the quality of my trusty Senn HD600 and my O2/ODAC combo.

That would be wrong. HDTracks has been around since at least 2008 (I know, because I have some AIFFs that I bought from them back then).

256 AAC sounds excellent. I'm much more worried about the quality of the mastering these days (loudness wars etc.).

The same thing happens when you do a sighted listening test while seeing the super-expensive Audiphool 2000 Platinum with gold-plated cables in front of you ...
The ABX tests are for people that want to use lossy Codecs and prove to themselves that they can't hear a difference between it and the benchmark (lossless). It was all the rage years ago when hard drive space was expensive. ABX is fine for that, if you have time to test every song in the universe (all songs have their own independent variables). Most people just use lossless for their libraries now.

I have asked for someone to point me to studies that have the conclusion that no one, with any equipment, in any environment, will ever hear a difference, but I am still waiting for the links. Maybe you can dig up some links to the "study after study" and we can take a look at their assertions?

Also, for the purpose of this discussion, I was not referring to High Resolution audio like HD Tracks has sold. I was referring to Rebook 16/44.1 lossless files that Tidal and Deezer are streaming. That being said, there was very little high rez content (I remember the HD Tracks library at the time and it was miniscule) in Steve Jobs time (although Neil Young claims they were looking into it) and the studios did not have 16/44.1 Redbook standard available via downloads other than maybe some independent labels that we going rogue. CD Quality lossless music was mainly only available on CDs. Today we have Tidal and Deezer (Sonos) streaming lossless (16/44.1) in the U.S, so there is a market now that did not exist in 2010. {For the purpose of this discussion, I have never said Apple should stream High Rez audio, which I consider a different market than Redbook CD}

Having every song remastered is a higher bar than providing lossless which is already readily available and being streamed by competing services. The "loudness wars" were created because many people prefer the dynamic compression for background music. For instance, if they are listening in the car, they don't want to have to turn up the volume to hear music that is quieter than the car's noise floor and then turn it back down or have their ears blown out when the loud parts come on. When Apple came out with their Mastered for iTunes specs, I remember one engineer complaining that he wanted his songs to have that compressed sound. He later found out that he could still get the sound he wanted, but the point is that Apple has very little control over how the engineers do their work. They can suggest high dynamic range, but they won't necessarily get it. Anyway, I would be happy to join the request for better masters, but in the meantime, I will just ask for lossless for now, like Tidal and Deezer users already have available.

Don't really care about cables or ABX tests involving them.
 
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qap

macrumors 6502a
Mar 29, 2011
558
441
Italy
So, at one time they though 128 was good enough and now they don't. Maybe there is hope for lossless after all.


The ABX tests are for people that want to use lossy Codecs and prove to themselves that they can't hear a difference between it and the benchmark (lossless). It was all the rage years ago when hard drive space was expensive. ABX is fine for that, if you have time to test every song in the universe (all songs have their own independent variables). Most people just use lossless for their libraries now.

I have asked for someone to point me to a studies that have the conclusion that no one, with any equipment, in any environment, will ever hear a difference, but I am still waiting for the links. Maybe you can dig up some links to the "study after study" and we can take a look at their assertions?

Also, for the purpose of this discussion, I was not referring to High Resolution audio like HD Tracks has sold. I was referring to Rebook 16/44.1 lossless files that Tidal and Deezer are streaming. That being said, there was very little high rez content (I remember the HD Tracks library at the time and it was miniscule) in Steve Jobs time (although Neil Young claims they were looking into it) and the studios did not have 16/44.1 Redbook standard available via downloads other than maybe some independent labels that we going rogue. CD Quality lossless music was mainly only available on CDs. Today we have Tidal and Deezer (Sonos) streaming lossless (16/44.1) in the U.S, so there is a market now that did not exist in 2010. {For the purpose of this discussion, I have never said Apple should stream High Rez audio, which I consider a different market than Redbook CD}

Having every song remastered is a higher bar than providing lossless which is already readily available and being streamed by competing services. The "loudness wars" were created because many people prefer the dynamic compression for background music. For instance, if they are listening in the car, they don't want to have to turn up the volume to hear music that is quieter than the car's noise floor and then turn it back down or have their ears blown out when the loud parts come on. When Apple came out with their Mastered for iTunes specs, I remember one engineer complaining that he wanted his songs to have that compressed sound. He later found out that he could still get the sound he wanted, but the point is that Apple has very little control over how the engineers do their work. They can suggest high dynamic range, but they won't necessarily get it. Anyway, I would be happy to join the request for better masters, but in the meantime, I will just ask for lossless for now, like Tidal and Deezer users already have available.

Don't really care about cables or ABX tests involving them.

I can't understand well your message, you want 16/44 files on AM, right?! And this is what we also ask!

I think nobody wants (at the moment) 24/96 files...almost until an iPhone with at least 512gb :D and anyway Apple doesn't let the music app to play HD files (why nobody knows).

PS: by the way, Dezeer doesn't stream 16/44, it's an option available only for the Sonos speakers....and I think nobody can hear the difference in sound between AAC and FLAC using Sonos speakers :D

But with TIDAL HiFi and a good headphones/equipment the difference is easily audible ;)
 

Uofmtiger

macrumors 68020
Dec 11, 2010
2,353
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Memphis
I can't understand well your message, you want 16/44 files on AM, right?! And this is what we also ask!

I think nobody wants (at the moment) 24/96 files...almost until an iPhone with at least 512gb :D and anyway Apple doesn't let the music app to play HD files (why nobody knows).

PS: by the way, Dezeer doesn't stream 16/44, it's an option available only for the Sonos speakers....and I think nobody can hear the difference in sound between AAC and FLAC using Sonos speakers :D

But with TIDAL HiFi and a good headphones/equipment the difference is easily audible ;)
Yes, I want Apple to offer 16/44.1.

The old MUSIC app could play 24/96 through Home Sharing and some DACs via the power port (lighting or 30 pin). The new Apple Music doesn't currently have Home Sharing available. Some will want 24/96 and there is a new technology called MQA from Meridian that is on the horizon. The memory won't matter as much because of the lossless compression used and the fact that it will mainly be for streaming. Tidal has 30 millions songs, it doesn't mean all of them should fit on your iPod. However, that being said, I personally just want lossless (16/44.1).

Yes, Deezer streams lossless (16/44.1) with Sonos like I mentioned. Sonos has something called "Connect" that will attach to any DAC or amp (the Connect has digital and analog outputs).

Yes, I agree that the headphones make a difference. Some headphones mentioned in this thread have a warm sound (often called "veiled") signature that can help mask the "tinny" sound of compression on some music. I know because I own a pair from that brand for that reason.

(update - just want to clarify, since this thread has recently been bumped, that Apple Music has been updated since I wrote the information above. Apple Music now has Home Sharing.)
 
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Uofmtiger

macrumors 68020
Dec 11, 2010
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u toss info away when u compress.

Personal preference,, i can't tell the difference..


I would always say just by the fact its smaller file size, means less quality, and if it's less quality, the they'll be a difference in quality. Maybe big, maybe small

Weather u'r aware or not.
It is kind of like a restaurant that has employees that spit in your food. People may not notice it in an ABX test, but I would still prefer to have my food without the spit in it.
 

SDAVE

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44/16 would be a great start, but 24/96+ would be awesome too. Streaming that is.
 

Tech198

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Mar 21, 2011
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Source?

Dolby has it's own proprietary codecs and doesn't use or certify any other codecs.

How can u have a source for that is dependent on the listening own experience hearing above 256k or so ? it's always going to be unique to the user regards who reviews it.
 

o0OBillO0o

macrumors member
Nov 27, 2015
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8
44/16 would be a great start, but 24/96+ would be awesome too. Streaming that is.

Rumor has it, that it's coming Q3 2016, to align with the "3.5mm-less" iPhone 7 with a new design 24bit Digital to Analog Converter (DAC). Big trouble will be streaming a >4000 Kbps file over LTE. Someone mentioned MQA, but Apple will come up with its own or buy the company.
 

SDAVE

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Rumor has it, that it's coming Q3 2016, to align with the "3.5mm-less" iPhone 7 with a new design 24bit Digital to Analog Converter (DAC). Big trouble will be streaming a >4000 Kbps file over LTE. Someone mentioned MQA, but Apple will come up with its own or buy the company.

That's awesome. I bet they can just scale back to 256kbps on LTE.

Currently I have a 128GB iPhone 6s Plus and have loaded it up with flacs and connect to my DAC via lightning to usb camera kit. Works flawlessly.
 
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o0OBillO0o

macrumors member
Nov 27, 2015
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That's awesome. I bet they can just scale back to 256kbps on LTE.

Currently I have a 128GB iPhone 6s Plus and have loaded it up with flacs and connect to my DAC via lightning to usb camera kit. Works flawlessly.

What app and DAC combo? The Lighting CCK and Music App output 24bit 48KHz for me to my McIntosh DAC.

I was messing with VOX by Coppertino but I don't like their "loop" unlimited cloud service they push on you.
 

SDAVE

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What app and DAC combo? The Lighting CCK and Music App output 24bit 48KHz for me to my McIntosh DAC.

I was messing with VOX by Coppertino but I don't like their "loop" unlimited cloud service they push on you.

http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa7fireflies.html

I use my rMBP sometimes, but the iPhone is more convenient. iOS supports DACs via Lightning CCK.

I use an Audeze LCD 3 and HD700 and some other headphones.

I'd like to move to a Burson and IFI DAC, but not at the moment. I'm enjoying the tube sound a lot. It's smooth a butter on FLACs, 24/96 etc.

I don't like VOX. The best apps for FLAC are for OS X are Decibel and JRiver Media Center.

For iOS I use Flac Player+ (I hate their ads, but can't get rid of them) and TuneShell (Paid removes ads).

Overall very happy with this setup. I don't have to use the laptop and having 128GB of space on an iOS device is pretty cool. I can carry a lot of my custom vinyl rips and other rips.

I have no way to check if iOS plays 24/96 to my DAC, but I did tests of same tracks and it seems like it is playing out to the DAC the same way the file rate is.
 
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IGI2

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May 6, 2015
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Source? (of your thesis)

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