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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
Special compiles of Stockfish, cFish, etc. are already optimizing compiles for using M1:s NEON, etc.

They can use whatever they want, it does not mean that the code optimally uses the hardware. For example, if you code uses a naive loop with vector instructions to accumulate a long chain of numbers, an x86 CPU with AVX2 will win - it can do twice as many additions per cycle and it runs higher clocks, and your execution is limited by the dependency chains. But if you unroll your code to allow multiple instructions to execute simultaneously, M1 will get ahead as it has more vector processing units and better memory subsystem.

But they are still less than half the speed of similar priced, similar-sized, computers.

This is not true. Benchmarks show M1 outperforming anything at the same power consumption.

The fact of the matter is that M1 isn't that fast as the usual influencer-types (fanbois) make it out to be. A similar priced modern CPU from AMD runs circles around it. For certain use-cases, it may be "ok" for its "watt" but let's keep it real.. the CPU is faster on Apple PowerPoint.-presentations than it is in real-life performance. It's more or less a glorified std. ARM big-little phone CPU with a focus mainly on the low-power slow "little"-cores and relies heavily on optimized code to even be comparable to intel/AMD these days. The CPU is overrated and underperforming.. (not only for chess).

Complete nonsense. I might agree that for chess engines, the performance is slightly disappointing. For most other applications, M1 has demonstrated high performance. Industry-standard benchmarks, real-world use as well as specialized tests make it very clear. You can’t cherry pick a single domain and ignore everything else.

Just compare it with amazing new stuff like the AMD 5700G and realize that anyone looking for "real" performance of CPU+GPU for the dollar should look elsewhere than the fruity un-open company these days.

AMD 5700G uses 5x as much power than M1 and has a slower GPU. It is slower than M1 in single core and 30% faster in multi-core, despite having twice as many cores and using much more power. Yes, performance per dollar is very good. If you want performance per dollar, there are much better options out there than Macs.

No AVX2
No AVX512 (VNNI)

M1 does not need AVX2 since it has double the number of vector compute units than x86 CPUs. Modern x86 can do 2 256-bit AVX2 operations per cycle, M1 can do 4 128-bit Neon operations per cycle. And M1 sind operations have lower latency. There are plenty of tests showing that M1 can hold its own agains AVX512.

M1 does not need VNNI since it offers multiple extensions for machine learning. It has the AMX coprocessor that is capable of performing 256 FP32 operations per cycle. A modern Intel AVX512 core can only do 16 operations per cycle. In other words, a single M1 has matrix multiplication throughput comparable of that of 16 Tiger Lake cores. Not to mention that M1 has an additional matrix multiplication unit (the NPU), which is still faster.



No Hyperthreading

Who cares? Hyperthreading is a hack designed to squeeze a bit more multithreaded performance of a CPU that is unable to efficiently utilize its execution resources. M1 can have three times more instructions in flight than fastest x86 cores, it won’t benefit from hyperthreading.





How to compensate the losses?

Write better code. If your program runs slower on M1, you are probably doing something very wrong.
 
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quarkysg

macrumors 65816
Oct 12, 2019
1,247
841
It's kind of interesting to see that critics are coming out in full force to 'prove' that the M1 (an entry/base level SoC) is weak and the 'proof' is comparisons to power hungry high end CPUs. It's quite fascinating that the M1, which is only 7 months olds are causing so much consternations when it's holding it's own compared to newer CPUs. I guess more 'comparisons' will come out in the following weeks and claiming the new Apple Silicon (M2?) will be similarly weak if it is announced in WWDC21.

What Apple has done with the M1 is nothing short of amazing IMHO.
 

NotTooLate

macrumors 6502
Jun 9, 2020
444
891
"the fruity un-open company these days." , maybe you should graduate from highschool before trying to discuss a "serious" topic in a forum dedicated to Apple ? I understand teens have self esteem issues , i suggest not to go about it in an aggressive way with name calling and what not , you will look back few years down the road and would laugh at your tone and mainly poor form of communicating with adults.

PS dont forget to eat your vegetables !!
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
Let's get real there...

Special compiles of Stockfish, cFish, etc. are already optimizing compiles for using M1:s NEON, etc. But they are still less than half the speed of similar priced, similar-sized, computers. The fact of the matter is that M1 isn't that fast as the usual influencer-types (fanbois) make it out to be. A similar priced modern CPU from AMD runs circles around it. For certain use-cases, it may be "ok" for its "watt" but let's keep it real.. the CPU is faster on Apple PowerPoint.-presentations than it is in real-life performance. It's more or less a glorified std. ARM big-little phone CPU with a focus mainly on the low-power slow "little"-cores and relies heavily on optimized code to even be comparable to intel/AMD these days. The CPU is overrated and underperforming.. (not only for chess). Just compare it with amazing new stuff like the AMD 5700G and realize that anyone looking for "real" performance of CPU+GPU for the dollar should look elsewhere than the fruity un-open company these days.


No AVX2
No AVX512 (VNNI)
No Hyperthreading




How to compensate the losses?
Can I ask if you have actually used an M1 Mac for any length of time? They really are quite impressive in day-to-day usage!

No doubt, AMD is making great advances and the latest Ryzen 9 5000 series CPUs look like good performers that comfortably exceed the Apple M1 in multi-core performance.

AMD is undoubtedly making the best laptop CPUs in terms of multi-core performance today.

Next week, however, may be a different matter...

But I don't think it's really a fair comparison to compare the current first-generation M1 against a 45W TDP 8-core/16-thread laptop CPU that has gone through several generations of design. Of course, it's valid to compare them, but you need to consider the market positioning of the processors as well. The M1 is the bottom of the line, entry-level offering from Apple. The AMD 5900 series is their top-of-the-line range.

Let's repeat the AMD to Apple comparison after the launch of the next generation of Apple Silicon. If you multiplied the M1 multi-core and GPU benchmarks by a factor of two, where would the best AMD CPU sit in relation to it?

I don't have any loyalty to Apple, AMD, or Intel. Whoever makes the machine best suited to my needs gets my money...but I expect that Apple will produce a very compelling product within the next 6 months, quite possibly sooner rather than later.

Remember that competition is great for consumers. If Apple produces a great CPU, AMD will try harder and may produce something even better next year! Intel may be limping along as an "also-ran", but who knows, perhaps they will surprise us all.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
Just compare it with amazing new stuff like the AMD 5700G and realize that anyone looking for "real" performance of CPU+GPU for the dollar should look elsewhere than the fruity un-open company these days.

As a side-note, it’s really funny that you are condemning Apple for their „fruitiness“ and praise AMD for their openness when AMD is masking fake drivers in your system that activate broken CPU features for select software in order to get more benchmark points at the expense of stability. But hey, „performance per dollar!“. Who cares about crashes and data loss, right?

 
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dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,146
1,902
Anchorage, AK
There are two people in this thread that consistently skew and cherry-pick arguments and test results alike to support their arguments that the M1 is a slow processor, and ignore any and all evidence which proves they're full of it. I'm not even going to quote their garbage or call them out by name right now, because they just want attention and imaginary e-cred for their stupid takes and poorly constructed arguments. What matters is overall performance of the M1 Macs, whether you're posting on forums, checking email, compiling code, editing photos and video, or other activities - not some chess benchmark whose accuracy in reporting true performance of the M1 is still in question. When you have to compare the M1 against higher-end CPUs from Intel and AMD and dedicated GPUs like the 5700G, you've already lost the argument, because the M1 does not compete in that space at all. Where you should be drawing the comparison is to the 10th and 11th gen i5 and i7s found in a lot of Dell and HP (non-gaming) laptops, or the Ryzen 5/7 series also in non-gaming laptops.

I can tell you this: my M1 beats my gaming laptop (9th gen 6-core i7 with HT and an 1660ti video card) in every CPU test. The only area the M1 falls behind is in GPU-intensive benchmarks and games that take advantage of the nVidia card inside. Everything processor based runs noticeably faster on the M1. This includes photo editing, video editing (4K HDR video), code compilation, audio processing and recording, streaming on either Twitch or YouTube, etc. I'm not a chess fan, so anecdotal stories about the M1s performance in a chess app are completely irrelevant to me, and have no impact whatsoever on my usage of any computer, regardless of the underlying operating system or processing platform.
 

Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
1,209
1,438
Let's get real there...

Special compiles of Stockfish, cFish, etc. are already optimizing compiles for using M1:s NEON, etc. But they are still less than half the speed of similar priced, similar-sized, computers. The fact of the matter is that M1 isn't that fast as the usual influencer-types (fanbois) make it out to be. A similar priced modern CPU from AMD runs circles around it. For certain use-cases, it may be "ok" for its "watt" but let's keep it real.. the CPU is faster on Apple PowerPoint.-presentations than it is in real-life performance. It's more or less a glorified std. ARM big-little phone CPU with a focus mainly on the low-power slow "little"-cores and relies heavily on optimized code to even be comparable to intel/AMD these days. The CPU is overrated and underperforming.. (not only for chess). Just compare it with amazing new stuff like the AMD 5700G and realize that anyone looking for "real" performance of CPU+GPU for the dollar should look elsewhere than the fruity un-open company these days.


No AVX2
No AVX512 (VNNI)
No Hyperthreading




How to compensate the losses?
So you realize cmaier is a CPU Engineer? I could be wrong, but I think they even worked for your favorite company you love to bring up. And they have repeatedly told you that your viewpoint on M1 is flawed and wrong. Pretty much everything you have brought up has been commented on at this point, most of which several people have shown the flaws in your arguments. Yet you keep pursuing this idea that M1 sucks.

Do you enjoy the attention? I don't get it.
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
2,510
2,462
Sweden
Let's get real there...

The CPU is overrated and underperforming.. (not only for chess). Just compare it with amazing new stuff like the AMD 5700G and realize that anyone looking for "real" performance of CPU+GPU for the dollar should look elsewhere than the fruity un-open company these days.

Yes, please get real instead of living in the Twilight Zone or some alternate universe. I wish Apple would put some stickers on their Macs saying "Warning! Chess players may be disappointed. Fast-paced 120 fps chess play should be avoided at all costs."

Since you seem to be a hungry troll I will feed you with some fresh knowledge. M1 GPU is the most powerful iGPU on the market right now compared to other iGPUs like Vega 8 in 5700G APU and M2 with 16-32 cores will be 2-4 times faster. M1 can already run Metro Exodus at 1080p medium with similar frame rate as the newly released APU Ryzen 7 5700G with Vega 8 at 1080p Low settings .

The game is not even optimized for M1 and runs via x86 translation and Rosetta 2 with 30-50% worse performance than a native port. All this while only using 10W compared to 65W that 5700G uses. That's indeed impressive (and faster) considering the circumstances. So show me any "real amazing new" iGPU at 10W on the market that can outrun M1. Please I want to be enlightened, but then again I don't play chess.
 
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cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
So you realize cmaier is a CPU Engineer? I could be wrong, but I think they even worked for your favorite company you love to bring up. And they have repeatedly told you that your viewpoint on M1 is flawed and wrong. Pretty much everything you have brought up has been commented on at this point, most of which several people have shown the flaws in your arguments. Yet you keep pursuing this idea that M1 sucks.

Do you enjoy the attention? I don't get it.

I worked at AMD for 10 years, designing a bunch of CPUs. (Plus a couple of other places - Sun, and Exponential Technology, which, if you don’t know about it, should be very interesting to folks interested in Apple)
 

colinsky

macrumors regular
Apr 3, 2009
185
192
I tested my new 16/512 Mini against my Late 2015 iMac (24GB/256, M395) by editing the same video in Premiere Pro CC on both machines.

I am crestfallen that the m1 Mini took 41 minutes against the iMac's 38 minutes. And the Mini version came out fuzzy compared to a razor-sharp iMac version.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
I tested my new 16/512 Mini against my Late 2015 iMac (24GB/256, M395) by editing the same video in Premiere Pro CC on both machines.

I am crestfallen that the m1 Mini took 41 minutes against the iMac's 38 minutes. And the Mini version came out fuzzy compared to a razor-sharp iMac version.
Is premiere rosetta still?
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
I tested my new 16/512 Mini against my Late 2015 iMac (24GB/256, M395) by editing the same video in Premiere Pro CC on both machines.

I am crestfallen that the m1 Mini took 41 minutes against the iMac's 38 minutes. And the Mini version came out fuzzy compared to a razor-sharp iMac version.
Now try again on something optimized for Apple silicon like Final Cut Pro or DaVinci Resolve.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
There are two people in this thread that consistently skew and cherry-pick arguments and test results alike to support their arguments that the M1 is a slow processor, and ignore any and all evidence which proves they're full of it. I'm not even going to quote their garbage or call them out by name right now, because they just want attention and imaginary e-cred for their stupid takes and poorly constructed arguments. What matters is overall performance of the M1 Macs, whether you're posting on forums, checking email, compiling code, editing photos and video, or other activities - not some chess benchmark whose accuracy in reporting true performance of the M1 is still in question. When you have to compare the M1 against higher-end CPUs from Intel and AMD and dedicated GPUs like the 5700G, you've already lost the argument, because the M1 does not compete in that space at all. Where you should be drawing the comparison is to the 10th and 11th gen i5 and i7s found in a lot of Dell and HP (non-gaming) laptops, or the Ryzen 5/7 series also in non-gaming laptops.

I can tell you this: my M1 beats my gaming laptop (9th gen 6-core i7 with HT and an 1660ti video card) in every CPU test. The only area the M1 falls behind is in GPU-intensive benchmarks and games that take advantage of the nVidia card inside. Everything processor based runs noticeably faster on the M1. This includes photo editing, video editing (4K HDR video), code compilation, audio processing and recording, streaming on either Twitch or YouTube, etc. I'm not a chess fan, so anecdotal stories about the M1s performance in a chess app are completely irrelevant to me, and have no impact whatsoever on my usage of any computer, regardless of the underlying operating system or processing platform.
I don’t think there is a problem using Stockfish benchmark to test the M1. If your primary reason to buy a new computer is to run a single program, knowing that program has weak results for whatever reason is useful information. Unfortunately the OP wants to make more of the single benchmark than what is warranted.

If you only need a new computer to run Stockfish then a M1 Mac is currently a poor choice. If you need general purpose results and Stockfish isn’t important to you but battery life and cool, silent operation is then the M1 is a very good choice.
 

ctucci

macrumors regular
Dec 16, 2008
173
43
Yer Mom's basement.
Benchmark: Stockfish (chess) speed

M1 CPU = 13000 kn/s

i7 3930k overclocked (from 2011 = 10 years old) = 13000 kn/s

Others = 40000 kn/s - 80000 kn/s

Desktop CPUs = 230000 kn/s and much stronger
Benchmarks or not.... I have a VM for work running, and a 4k vid on the mac side along with other apps running, and not a hitch. On a stock base M1 mini. I'm not giving it back because a benchmark says so.
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
Now try again on something optimized for Apple silicon like Final Cut Pro or DaVinci Resolve.
I second this. Adobe Premiere is well behind the curve compared to the other two, and it's probably best to avoid it on an M1 Mac until there is a native version.
 

Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
1,209
1,438
I tested my new 16/512 Mini against my Late 2015 iMac (24GB/256, M395) by editing the same video in Premiere Pro CC on both machines.

I am crestfallen that the m1 Mini took 41 minutes against the iMac's 38 minutes. And the Mini version came out fuzzy compared to a razor-sharp iMac version.
Fellow Premiere user here. Premiere is known for being horribly optimized, and unless you're using the beta version for M1, it's still running under Rosetta. I don't know how the beta version runs, but if its anything like intel, it will still be horrible compared to other NLE's. I switched to FCP for a while, and it was a night and day difference. I've heard the same with Resolve too. If I wasn't locked into the Adobe suite I would abandon them immediately.
 

v0n

macrumors regular
Mar 1, 2009
106
60
Now try again on something optimized for Apple silicon like Final Cut Pro or DaVinci Resolve.

Trouble of course is - in real life you can't, unless all the editing you do is 'vanilla' benchmarking - only pure FCPX and only built in features. The moment you need to use any plugins for tracking, compositing or grading, you have to go Rosetta and your performance is shot down in flames. More than 90% of plugins still don't work on M1 - now 8 months on from release. And because most of the miraculous speed advantages of Silicon at this stage are driven by software optimisation not hardware advances, the moment it has to go back to layer that needs physical memory and raw power, it's all out of the window.

That of course doesn't mean the idea is bad, or architecture is bad, it's just very limited in this generation, because it's still just a 'ported' iPad chip that's been severely crippled - in current form it can't give you more memory, or more IO, half of TB3 is removed, USB4 is not really that, etc, etc. It's a good tech demo running on way too many final devices. if the next gen silicone doesn't have that memory limitation and can give us proper array of fully functional ports, without removing external graphics, without limiting TB3 disk speeds, without chasing some sort bizarre thinness targets in a race with no other company whatsoever - that's going to be interesting.

Now - I have a question for @cmaier - since he's experienced enough to remember giants like Cray or SGI and worked for Sun Microsystems. In the entire history of personal computers, workstations and desktops - do we have a good example of a computing giant that dived as deep into proprietary CPU tech as Apple did this time, including software that requires platform specific coding across their entire range - and not ended up with chapter 11 blackeye in a long run? In your opinion - do you think this time around (cause Apple's been down that road once before and almost collapsed in the process before Jobs switched them to Intel at the last minute) it is going to be any different for Apple and their silicon?
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
Now - I have a question for @cmaier - since he's experienced enough to remember giants like Cray or SGI and worked for Sun Microsystems. In the entire history of personal computers, workstations and desktops - do we have a good example of a computing giant that dived as deep into proprietary CPU tech as Apple did this time, including software that requires platform specific coding across their entire range - and not ended up with chapter 11 blackeye in a long run? In your opinion - do you think this time around (cause Apple's been down that road once before and almost collapsed in the process before Jobs switched them to Intel at the last minute) it is going to be any different for Apple and their silicon?

I’m not sure I understand the question. What is “proprietary CPU tech?” I mean, Sun still exists inside Oracle, and still sells Sparcs. IBM still sells Power products. And PowerPC was no more “proprietary” than the 68000 series that preceded it - quite the opposite, actually. I mean, is your definition of “proprietary … requiring platform specific coding” “not Intel?”

The problem SGI, Motorola, and some of these others had is that they didn’t keep up with Intel, or they DID surpass Intel (i.e. DEC) but they couldn’t sell at a price that made it worthwhile to switch.

Apple has had ridiculous success with Arm over the years, and the whole industry is heading toward Arm, so I don’t think there’s anything to worry about.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,454
1,229
Trouble of course is - in real life you can't, unless all the editing you do is 'vanilla' benchmarking - only pure FCPX and only built in features. The moment you need to use any plugins for tracking, compositing or grading, you have to go Rosetta and your performance is shot down in flames. More than 90% of plugins still don't work on M1 - now 8 months on from release. And because most of the miraculous speed advantages of Silicon at this stage are driven by software optimisation not hardware advances, the moment it has to go back to layer that needs physical memory and raw power, it's all out of the window.

That of course doesn't mean the idea is bad, or architecture is bad, it's just very limited in this generation, because it's still just a 'ported' iPad chip that's been severely crippled - in current form it can't give you more memory, or more IO, half of TB3 is removed, USB4 is not really that, etc, etc. It's a good tech demo running on way too many final devices. if the next gen silicone doesn't have that memory limitation and can give us proper array of fully functional ports, without removing external graphics, without limiting TB3 disk speeds, without chasing some sort bizarre thinness targets in a race with no other company whatsoever - that's going to be interesting.

Now - I have a question for @cmaier - since he's experienced enough to remember giants like Cray or SGI and worked for Sun Microsystems. In the entire history of personal computers, workstations and desktops - do we have a good example of a computing giant that dived as deep into proprietary CPU tech as Apple did this time, including software that requires platform specific coding across their entire range - and not ended up with chapter 11 blackeye in a long run? In your opinion - do you think this time around (cause Apple's been down that road once before and almost collapsed in the process before Jobs switched them to Intel at the last minute) it is going to be any different for Apple and their silicon?

All CPUs require some degree of optimization in the code to get the best out of them, especially things like vector math. However, ARM - the kind of CPU Apple employs - tends to excel at general purpose code compared to x86. x86 is in fact much more reliant on adding special purpose instructions that you can target for extra speed but require much more hardware specific optimizations in software. x86 has just been around long enough that some software have been heavily optimized for it, and not ARM which has historically been on low power devices. For most user land apps there is little proprietary about Apple’s CPUs as compared to standard ARM. Apple’s frameworks and APIs handle what proprietary instructions there are.
 

quarkysg

macrumors 65816
Oct 12, 2019
1,247
841
That of course doesn't mean the idea is bad, or architecture is bad, it's just very limited in this generation, because it's still just a 'ported' iPad chip that's been severely crippled - in current form it can't give you more memory, or more IO, half of TB3 is removed, USB4 is not really that, etc, etc. It's a good tech demo running on way too many final devices.
For a severely crippled 'ported' iPad chip, running translated x86 GB5 benchmark (https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/4731213) and beating the scores generated by the early 2020 MBA (https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-early-2020-intel-core-i7-1060ng7-1-2-ghz-4-cores) running native x86 codes, I think it's doing pretty well. The plugin situations is more on the developers rather than the M1.

I don't think we have USB4 capable peripherals at the moment tho. The IO and memory situation is an engineering decision since the products the M1 Macs replaces are base models with similar constraints.

For a 'tech. demo', it's pretty impressive where many users are using them on their daily workflows. Haven't seen many 'tech. demos' doing that tho. The Macs that the current crops of M1 Macs replaces all have performance increases, and all backed up by 1 single SoCs. Those previous Macs runs on quite a gamut of Intel CPUs. Quite impressive if you asked me.

I'm presonnally excited what we get to see announced at WWDC21 if the recents rumours pans out.

I think you should give credit where credit is due.
 
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