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MauiPa

macrumors 68040
Apr 18, 2018
3,438
5,084
More non his pathetic pricing comparisons.

First, there is no gigabyte computer configuration that I can find that comes close to the MBP, sorry.

then I went to the adorama site for these Razers and found these:

1636578134815.png


While the CPU is terribly underpowered relative to the MBP, the RTX3080 is overpowered (maybe, I priced the 16 MBP with the 32 core GPU, 32 GB ( overkill, MAC OS does not usually need as much as windows) and 1TB Ssd which came in at $3499, and the MBP display is way better, but a lower refresh rate, so not totally consistent.).

Who is ridiculously priced now?
 
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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 16, 2015
16,263
11,764
Well, just because you found some benchmarks where the M1 Pro/Max chips are not able to maximize performance doesn't mean they are not amazing overall. Even the video you shared to us concluded as much.

I'm not invalidating your experience on MacOS, but I'm seriously questioning your motive by posting this video without any context. You clearly don't seem to understand why those numbers are the way they are, or why the video's conclusion is against your own.
How do you read my conclusion from the video and my post? Does all of these make you feel confident to believe I want Apple silicon to fail or praise Intel or something? If anything, I just find this video reviewing AS from a different angle that just focus on video editing and nothing else, cause not everyone run video editing software all day long unless it’s their job. Also finding cross platform benchmarks isn’t that easy, and the video itself doesn’t claim their benchmark is perfect or something.
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
How do you read my conclusion from the video and my post? Does all of these make you feel confident to believe I want Apple silicon to fail or praise Intel or something? If anything, I just find this video reviewing AS from a different angle that just focus on video editing and nothing else, cause not everyone run video editing software all day long unless it’s their job. Also finding cross platform benchmarks isn’t that easy, and the video itself doesn’t claim their benchmark is perfect or something.

Yeah, but why compare against other processors on other platforms at all if you just want to know how these processors will improve your workflow under MacOS?

What are you trying to prove?
 
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Technerd108

macrumors 68040
Oct 24, 2021
3,062
4,313
The video was fine for someone who doesn't use Apple!!

A better use case test would be an i7 1165G7 and 16gb ram. Or a Dell XPS with 11th gen h processor.

For 10k you could get this laptop for creators from Asus. Look at the bezels on that thing!! lol


The thing is all these benchmarks showing how fast the cpu and gpu are against Intel and AMD processors are a bit misleading.

First off as many have mentioned the Rosetta 2 emulation should not be used. Native and optimized apps on M1 should only be used for comparison because you better believe they are optimized for Windows!!

Now that the M1/M2/M3 etc. is the only processor Apple is using going forward the native application base should dramatically expand. I mean it seems like people don't remember the shift from Power Pc to Intel. That was a lot worse a transition that M1 has been buy a wide margin! Give it another year or so and most apps will run native and be optimized for M1 which means these processors still have some potential that is yet to be tapped. M2 will be a beast and M3 will destroy. M3 will be on 3nm while M2 will be on 4nm or 5nm but will run at much higher clock speeds. M3 will have higher clock speeds and be on a new process node. I don't see Intel being able to catch up and AMD will not be able too either.

Now if we really want to compare things then lets compare drivers?? Good luck with AMD optimizing their drivers and supporting them over time with optimizations. Software is a big deal and something that should be considered when buying a Windows or Mac. I have a Windows machine and a Linux machine and have been using those systems for many many years. I love the customization and freedom to choose another OS if I desire but there are BIG trade offs.

Also there is a security risk inherent in all Windows PC's due to the nature of updating drivers and firmware which are often not signed or validated.

Also Apple has never been focused one CPU superiority. It was always about tight software integration and optimization of software to work with hardware. That has not changed it is just they have advanced their CPU performance to a point where even PC enthusiasts have to give a look.

The fact that an ARM chip that a few years ago would have been laughed at being considered next to a Desktop x86 cpu in any capacity and now we have ARM chips destroying the competition. It is not so much about raw performance which is really impressive but the efficiency. Chip designs that are efficient/powerful are going to be the future. We are coming to an end of process node advancement soon unless a better cheaper medium than silicon is found. So having a CPU that is more efficient and powerful in a smaller TDP envelope will bring a ton of advantages.

The biggest game changer IMHO is not the raw power of these chips but the fact that you can run them at peak frequency on a battery and have no degradation in performance is HUGE!! The other thing is heat. A X86 processor with 8 cores runs hot and eats wattage and even if they get the process node down to 3nm they will still have an efficiency and heat problem. Heat is a big problem for CPU's and if your chip can run faster and cooler then it won't throttle!! All of these Intel chips will throttle given a heavy enough load and enough time. AMD throttles as well-specially on battery.

So while the Intel/AMD chips may meet or beat the M1 Pro/Max in some applications and work flows that is plugged in and properly cooled. I have heard that the new Alder Lake chips need water cooling to properly keep them running. I doubt any of these benchmarks on Windows PC's are on battery yet go ahead an unplug the Mac and it will not throttle and will keep going for many hours under a heavy sustained load with the same benchmark results. That is amazing and something that is not properly considered in these comparisons.

Now in three years the Razor or Dell XPS will not be running the same as the Mac either because PC makers have an incentive to sell you new stuff as does Apple but PC makers are not responsible for the quality or performance of AMD or Intel drivers over many years. Intel has a much better track record on this front but usually cpu drivers get abandoned after a year or two so the cpu is not as optimized for the hardware as it was when new. So over time your super fast PC degrades faster than it should do to a lack of proper hardware support by multiple vendors.

I bring the latter up because a lot of Windows users can brag their PC performance when new is amazing but test those super fast machines in a year against these same MacBook Pro's and I bet PC users will not have the same experience as Mac users.

So if you are going to do a video comparing the performance and talking about the cost differences we should really look into the long term costs and support. The fact is that a Mac will last longer and run better for it's expected life the a Windows machine because the software is simply better optimized for the hardware on a Mac and now that they are custom designing the CPU there will be even more optimizations and features Apple will be able to integrate into their devices which PC's will not be able to match. Apple is playing a long game while the other companies are just trying to make a profit each quarter.

So while the videos are fun to watch and raw performance is awesome to have in a Mac they really don't show a complete picture and a PC only user wouldn't understand these subtle differences and that is why the video has several problems.
 

rphillipss

macrumors newbie
Aug 7, 2013
8
1
Australia
Supposedly, Matlab R2021 will support ARM.
Spoke to one of the MATLAB dev engineers and apparently Big Sur threw them for a loop and basically sent them back to square one with the native M1 support pipeline. Its a priority for them, but he couldnt give me a timeframe. Likely 2022a but no guarantee.

Has anyone seen M1Max benchmarks for MATLAB? I'd be interested to know how it performs, even under rosetta.
 

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
2,424
Spoke to one of the MATLAB dev engineers and apparently Big Sur threw them for a loop and basically sent them back to square one with the native M1 support pipeline. Its a priority for them, but he couldnt give me a timeframe. Likely 2022a but no guarantee.

Has anyone seen M1Max benchmarks for MATLAB? I'd be interested to know how it performs, even under rosetta.
I expect to see Apple Silicon “perform” better as software support matures. We’re only one year into the transition and we’ve seen a surprising amount of programs already become native to the platform. This bodes well I believe.

How do you read my conclusion from the video and my post? Does all of these make you feel confident to believe I want Apple silicon to fail or praise Intel or something? If anything, I just find this video reviewing AS from a different angle that just focus on video editing and nothing else, cause not everyone run video editing software all day long unless it’s their job. Also finding cross platform benchmarks isn’t that easy, and the video itself doesn’t claim their benchmark is perfect or something.
I agree that early reviews of Apple Silicon have “played to its strengths”. In fact I was a little concerned when Apple’s announcement constantly said “power per watt” in reference to the competition.

But this is not out of the ordinary for product reveals and early reviews. I can recall for instance when Ryzen 1 was out, Ashes of the Singularity was always benchmarked because it scaled well with more cores (which was Zens early advantage).

And as I said in my earlier post, hwub is great for PC reviews. However, watching this particular video doesn’t give me the sense that they entered this with a truly unbiased opinion. It seems like a video purely intended to deflate any praise the M1 pro/max received.

Their benchmarks show ASi performing pretty much as Apple said it would, desktop power with laptop efficiency. It compares favorably with top end desktop class processors, even his tests show that.

His other criticisms are true, but nothing new to the Apple ecosystem. It’s expensive, RAM and storage upgrade prices are terrible, and it doesn’t do well in gaming. Same thing that’s always been said about Macs, and doesn’t reflect on the M1 pro itself.

I do think calling this processor “amazing” is very fair. By comparing it to the best of the best AMD and Intel processors to try and say it’s not that big of a deal, when it keeps up (and in some cases, tops) them, while using less power (and that’s the whole SoC, including an integrated GPU, RAM, and other things that are not included with the competitors), warrants high praise.
 
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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,453
1,229
His other criticisms are true, but nothing new to the Apple ecosystem. It’s expensive, RAM and storage upgrade prices are terrible, and it doesn’t do well in gaming. Same thing that’s always been said about Macs, and doesn’t reflect on the M1 pro itself.

The funny thing is some of the pricing isn’t even that bad … for instance the Dell XPS 17 with 32GB (DDR4), 1TB HD, UHF screen starts out at $3100. The MBP 16” M1 Max 32 core GPU with 32GB/1TB starts off at $3500. More than fair given relative performance, battery life, quietness, weight, etc … 32 -> 64 GB DDR4 to the XPS? $300. 32-> 64 GB of better lpDDR5 memory to the MBP? $400. Make it a 2TB hard drive in each? Again $100 extra for the MBP.

Now I’ll grant you that there are pricing issues for elevating memory in the MBP Pro. $400 for an extra 32GB of lpDDR5 in the Max is not bad, pretty good in fact! But it’s also $400 to add an extra 16GB of lpDDR5 to go from 16->32GB for the Pro. Ouch.

But part of that is that the Pro 16GB is a really good deal if you don’t upgrade it. It’s basically an i9 with a 3050 (which Dell doesn’t sell so you can’t price it) but you can compare it to the i7 16GB 3050 … it’s basically much better for only a little more. If you fake an i9 with 16GB and knock $200 off the price for the lower Nvidia, then the MBP is better for $50 cheaper! You could add that 16 GB to each and now the Mac is only $200 more expensive and is arguably much better specc’d for CPU performance, battery life, weight, and quiet.

My guess is that the pricing scheme is meant to reward customers buying the M1 Max (both RAM variants) and the base Pro each of which are competitively priced with other premium brands even for HD storage for which upgrades are somewhat but not exorbitantly more expensive than its rivals.

So I feel it’s a bit more complicated than just “upgrading RAM and disk space is too expensive on MBPs just like before”. It kind of depends on which upgrades we’re talking about with what base config.


 
Last edited:

Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
2,510
2,461
Sweden
Spoke to one of the MATLAB dev engineers and apparently Big Sur threw them for a loop and basically sent them back to square one with the native M1 support pipeline. Its a priority for them, but he couldnt give me a timeframe. Likely 2022a but no guarantee.

Has anyone seen M1Max benchmarks for MATLAB? I'd be interested to know how it performs, even under rosetta.

Not M1 Max but Pro:
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 16, 2015
16,263
11,764
Yeah, but why compare against other processors on other platforms at all if you just want to know how these processors will improve your workflow under MacOS?

What are you trying to prove?
Ugh…
I am not trying to prove anything. Why you think I want to prove anything? I merely share this as hwub has a different view than almost every single other apple centric channel reviewing the same product. If LTT got their own review I’d share theirs as well. That doesn’t mean I want to “prove” or “feel superior” or anything. It’s not like I hate apple silicon being superior or having huge potential, I’m just tired to see YouTube review scene being so one dimensional, hwub brings something a little different. That’s it!
 
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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 16, 2015
16,263
11,764
So if you are going to do a video comparing the performance and talking about the cost differences we should really look into the long term costs and support. The fact is that a Mac will last longer and run better for it's expected life the a Windows machine because the software is simply better optimized for the hardware on a Mac and now that they are custom designing the CPU there will be even more optimizations and features Apple will be able to integrate into their devices which PC's will not be able to match. Apple is playing a long game while the other companies are just trying to make a profit each quarter.
Speaking of long term support, my Dell G5 has served me well in the past 3 years and I never did a single full Windows reinstall, while I stopped using MacBook Air early 2014 after 2 to 3 years cause it is way too slow at that point. The machine is still great, but macOS drags it to a crawl. Microsoft today still offers their windows 5 years of mainstream support and extended support after that for eligible SKU while apple just chop macOS support as soon as they see fit, only providing ad hoc security updates here and there. I’d say long term support both apple and Microsoft trades equally. As for the hardware, PC’s relative upgradability is always much better than Mac, so users with some skill can extend their device lifespan to the same level as apple’s own support. Apple M1 Mac support has yet to be seen, tho I feel the long term software support might not improve much for enterprise and business environment, where constant change is not their cup of tea.
 
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Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
6,259
7,285
Seattle
I don't get why in his gaming comparison he didn't test Baldurs Gate 3 which is native and does perform extremely well. Would've been a great comparison candidate.
And what kind of clicks do you think a balanced comparison video like that would generate vs this kind of hot take video? ?
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
And what kind of clicks do you think a balanced comparison video like that would generate vs this kind of hot take video? ?
Sadly, this seems to be the world we live in. Internet media has proved that controversy, antagonism and generally provoking emotional reactions from people sells far better than balance, empathy and logical reasoning. Owners of social media paltforms are in a conundrum - either sell more, or take the moral high ground and potentially become irrelevant.
 
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alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
2,193
524
My take is normal people ain’t gonna run premier daily or play with Final Cut Pro professionally unless that’s their job. I have yet to see a single YouTuber outside of him testing anything that has nothing to do with video production or tasks around it, yet people can unzip archives using 7zip from time to time, same for exporting PDF files. Sure, those software isn’t fully optimised for M1 but after a full year if this is the software situation, we still have quite a way to go.
hehe , i do youtube tutorial programming on apple platform. Yes most of them not dealing with real issue and real problem . What i do even a simple create, read,update and delete(crud) i'm not sure people do understand since some people mostly cut and paste in programming. I do learn a lot some minor video editing in YouTube .
Even it's not profitable at all , my point to make those video , it's real life problem and how to solve.
 

the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
I don’t necessarily view Apple Silicon SoCs as like… futuristic. I view them as what a computer should be.
I think that sums everything up.

Moving on from the mhz wars we need to realise that faster and faster, more and more is not always better. Thinking outside the box for the next user experience needs to happen from time to time for true innovation. What a computer is, will change from time to time. One day it could be different to an integrated SoC (M1 like), when something better is invented.

On a side note, the older integrated chips, with the integrated GPU. The low end Macs and PCs. I did think they were the future. They just needed time to mature as a concept to be powerful enough to be more than the ultra low end. If you take our human brain as an example. It is totally integrated, with different parts of the one whole responsible for different tasks. The Apple SoC is just the next step in this evolution.

I personally do not think a computer should be anything. That way of thinking goes against change because whatever the person thinks should be, well that's it and there is no need for change. Change should always be considered. Better and better. Always thinking outside the box. What a computer is, should be ever changing with the innovators willing to experiment, change things up with the hope of making the next major innovation.
 
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alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
2,193
524
I think that sums everything up.

Moving on from the mhz wars we need to realise that faster and faster, more and more is not always better. Thinking outside the box for the next user experience needs to happen from time to time for true innovation. What a computer is, will change from time to time. One day it could be different to an integrated SoC (M1 like), when something better is invented.

On a side note, the older integrated chips, with the integrated GPU. The low end Macs and PCs. I did think they were the future. They just needed time to mature as a concept to be powerful enough to be more than the ultra low end. If you take our human brain as an example. It is totally integrated, with different parts of the one whole responsible for different tasks. The Apple SoC is just the next step in this evolution.

I personally do not think a computer should be anything. That way of thinking goes against change because whatever the person thinks should be, well that's it and there is no need for change. Change should always be considered. Better and better. Always thinking outside the box. What a computer is, should be ever changing with the innovators willing to experiment, change things up with the hope of making the next major innovation.
apple is single manufacturer might easier , in normal computer got mutiple vendor involve. The main problem now how do increase speed without heat . arm maybe the best solution for now . The mobile phone bring this . arm existed before iphone exist before. my nokia 6120 also arm device. i love it till use 2007 till 2010 whatsapp not working .
 

CarbonCycles

macrumors regular
May 15, 2014
122
118
It's interesting to see how ppl get really really emotional about something made out of rocks and sand.

End of the day, it's a tool that only you can determine if it's a perfect fit or a compromise...use it and use it to the point where you get your money's worth.
 
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alien3dx

macrumors 68020
Feb 12, 2017
2,193
524
It's interesting to see how ppl get really really emotional about something made out of rocks and sand.

End of the day, it's a tool that only you can determine if it's a perfect fit or a compromise...use it and use it to the point where you get your money's worth.
yes it just a tool. use the right tool for right problem
 
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robco74

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
509
944
There are certainly going to be workloads where Intel/AMD and AMD/Nvidia will perform better than Apple Silicon. That was the case back when it was PPC vs Intel. Since most of the software I use is native, I haven't had many issues. But as others have stated, the overall user experience is key. I like that I get comparable performance, but I really appreciate the quiet. I have gotten the fans to kick on, and the laptop has gotten warm, but it took a lot, and the fans were still relatively quiet. My old Intel MBP OTOH would kick into high gear at the drop of a hat, and I could hear it from across the room. Aside from performance, I love the display. They did a great job with the keyboard and trackpad. The built-in speakers are surprisingly good.
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
Ugh…
I am not trying to prove anything. Why you think I want to prove anything? I merely share this as hwub has a different view than almost every single other apple centric channel reviewing the same product. If LTT got their own review I’d share theirs as well. That doesn’t mean I want to “prove” or “feel superior” or anything. It’s not like I hate apple silicon being superior or having huge potential, I’m just tired to see YouTube review scene being so one dimensional, hwub brings something a little different. That’s it!

Then why are you saying this in your first post?

"M1 Pro isn’t as amazing as some trying so hard for people to believe"

This is not a different view as pointed out. Trying to run Windows in Parallels or non-native apps and proclaiming M1 Pro/Max as "not being faster" is entirely missing the point. If the review was about more applications, then, fine, so be it. This is just yet another plaster of benchmarks and someone narrating those benchmarks. Except the agenda is even clearer: it's geared toward making Windows laptops looking better than they actually are.
 

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
2,424
Except the agenda is even clearer: it's geared toward making Windows laptops looking better than they actually are.
The video straight up doesn’t do laptop benches, it’s purely against desktop systems.
 

Pro Apple Silicon

Suspended
Oct 1, 2021
361
426
"exorbitantly expensive". is everyone else as tired of hearing this stupid unsubstantiated claim as I am? to validate I went to the Dell web site and "built" some XPS machines to see if the were so cheap that they could not be exorbitantly expensive. Guess what? the M1 air and MBP beat any Dell XPS on price, performance, quality of screen, Ssd speed, weight and battery life, and the XPSs are renowned for thermal throttling. Next I did the same thing with the 14 and 16 MBP. Guess what? same thing.

So enough already. If you think I am wrong, do it yourself, You constantly have to up features to get a CPU/GPU that is close in performance (before throttling), and then the build price is .....wait for it.....exorbitantly expensive.
This has been a meme for a long time. And probably the dumbest one there is.

It all stems from the fact that you can't get a cheap Mac, in the same way that you can buy cheap sub-$700 PCs. You can only get an "expensive" one. Which incidentally are priced competitively with all other comparable PCs.
 

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
2,424
This has been a meme for a long time. And probably the dumbest one there is.

It all stems from the fact that you can't get a cheap Mac, in the same way that you can buy cheap sub-$700 PCs. You can only get an "expensive" one. Which incidentally are priced competitively with all other comparable PCs.
I think a lot of pc builders were spoiled for pricing over the last decade or more. Now an “entry level” gpu costs $300 or more, as well as mobos getting more expensive, and psu requirements inflating. In the context of entry level gpus being sub-$200 and mobos at $100 or less and not needing a big honking psu to run it, yeah a $1,200 Mac with Intels igpu seemed like a bad deal when you don’t consider the other mac “niceties”.

Now it’s almost equivalent, the Apple tax comes in with the RAM and storage upgrades, but the M-series doesn’t fall flat on its face when it runs out of RAM, so you could theoretically get by with less.
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
Then why are you saying this in your first post?

"M1 Pro isn’t as amazing as some trying so hard for people to believe"
Just another of those "just asking hard questions" type that think no one will ever read what they actually post.
 
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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 16, 2015
16,263
11,764
Then why are you saying this in your first post?

"M1 Pro isn’t as amazing as some trying so hard for people to believe"

This is not a different view as pointed out. Trying to run Windows in Parallels or non-native apps and proclaiming M1 Pro/Max as "not being faster" is entirely missing the point. If the review was about more applications, then, fine, so be it. This is just yet another plaster of benchmarks and someone narrating those benchmarks. Except the agenda is even clearer: it's geared toward making Windows laptops looking better than they actually are.
Heh? That single sentence gives you that feeling? M1 is amazing, but as it is, M1 is not flawless like almost every single YouTube channel that favours apple praises. Normal user has no intention to figure out what emulation is or whatnot, they just download stuff, run it and get their job done. One guy I know shares the same sentiment, as Adobe acrobat isn’t working as well as it used to be on a Windows PC.

That, is part of the reason I throw the video here. Nothing is perfect and saying otherwise is wrong.
 
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