Apple Made Me Buy a Windows HP Workstation

[Melodist]

Not sure what you mean by this. I can download and run older versions of OS X from the App Store and install them, or go all the way back to Snow Leopard on my System Installation Disc.

Agreed, I'm running pretty much 3 OS's on both of my Mac Pros: snow leopard, mavericks and el capitan. But you know, that's just being able to plug in 4 hard drives into the old Mac Pro...

Well, I don't mean to invalidate your experience, but more than 8 years of service out of a laptop seems pretty good. Sorry to hear about your 10.9 woes, I had a similarly frustrating experience when I updated my early '07 iMac to Lion.

But for perspective: I doubt a Windows laptop from 2007/2008 would run Windows 10 comfortably! Matter of fact, I have a generic '09 Asus laptop and it struggles even with Windows 7 (it came with Vista and that was even worse). It did run Ubuntu 11 and 12 pretty well for a while, though.

As a rule, I usually make a backup of a fine running system before I update the OS, so I can always revert if things aren't working well.
Good luck!

I also think that Apple's software to hardware backward compatibility is still great, reliable and unprecedentet but still, the OS is getting progressively worse with every release.

 

[kimjongbill]

Why didn't you just buy aftermarket RAM? I know 64GB would not have been that expensive on the aftermarket, I think you can get 128 GB for $1,200.

 

[RestUnknown]

Well, I don't mean to invalidate your experience, but more than 8 years of service out of a laptop seems pretty good. Sorry to hear about your 10.9 woes, I had a similarly frustrating experience when I updated my early '07 iMac to Lion.

But for perspective: I doubt a Windows laptop from 2007/2008 would run Windows 10 comfortably! Matter of fact, I have a generic '09 Asus laptop and it struggles even with Windows 7 (it came with Vista and that was even worse). It did run Ubuntu 11 and 12 pretty well for a while, though.

As a rule, I usually make a backup of a fine running system before I update the OS, so I can always revert if things aren't working well.
Good luck!

I totally agree that it has its age and won't run newer OS'es as smooth as the older ones. But than I would rather have Apple say I can't update because my machine is too old than that it allows me to do it.

As for reverting back to an older version, I'll have a look into it, I thought it was impossible.

 

[shaunp]

Apple included new kext for skylake based iGPU since March, they're obviously working on something but Intel is having chip problems for the GT4e parts that the Macbook Pro would use. Though since the Skull Canyon NUC is shipped, i'd assume that the chip problems are worked out.

Dell, Lenovo, HP, Toshiba, Microsoft, etc have all been shipping Skylake products for months. Intel aren't having THAT much of a problem, otherwise I wouldn't be able to order any number of laptops from these vendors and have it shipped within a few days. If Apple can't get their act together and ship something within 6 months of the competition doing so then something is very wrong.

Being secretive about products is not cool, as a business user I want to know whether or not I am potentially buying a dead product and want to see roadmaps.

 

[Mark Holmes]

Just wanted to share this article about switching to a Windows workstation - another HP, although more high end than mine - the Z840, written by a professional colorist. Nice piece:

https://mixinglight.com/portfolio/hands-on-with-the-hp-z840-part-1/

Also, I agree with his take on using an HP workstation. It fulfills that 4% of needs that Apple's range of laptops, desktops and iOS devices cover. Maybe Apple just has decided that they will leave the professional workstation market to Microsoft and other vendors. Nothing wrong with that, I guess.

 

[mathpunk]

Just wanted to share this article about switching to a Windows workstation - another HP, although more high end than mine - the Z840, written by a professional colorist. Nice piece:

https://mixinglight.com/portfolio/hands-on-with-the-hp-z840-part-1/

Interesting. That's over a year old, though, and it appears that he never put up the promised part 2, or at least I could not find it anywhere after looking all over the internet.

 

[rockyromero]

Maybe Apple just has decided that they will leave the professional workstation market to Microsoft and other vendors. Nothing wrong with that, I guess.

Thank you for mentioning this article.

Clearly, you are correct on your prediction for high end workstations by other providers.

I have (3) MAC mini and MAC PRO 2013 currently and I anticipate requiring additional capacities.

I'm ok with continuing to buy more MAC PROs because of the compactness and scalability through redundant systems.

After reading this forum and the blog from the link that you shared, considering a high end like the HP is starting to make computing and financial sense.

If only I could run MAC OS on an HP Z840?

➰

 

[reetcher]

Now that you've made the switch, looking back on your files are there any steps you would of taken to make them more Window's friendly? The good thing about no new upgrades is that all my computers are so outdated changing hardware would not be that painful however I have a lot of hard drives all formatted to the mac OS and projects files that might not transfer so easily. Curious to your new insights in regards to changing systems or any helpful foresight you can provide.

thanks

 

[flat five]

Just wanted to share this article about switching to a Windows workstation - another HP, although more high end than mine - the Z840, written by a professional colorist. Nice piece:

https://mixinglight.com/portfolio/hands-on-with-the-hp-z840-part-1/

well, yeah.. they guy refers to his computer as the rig.
apple doesn't make a rig so if you like calling your computer that, seek alternative vendors.

 

[jameslmoser]

well, yeah.. they guy refers to his computer as the rig.
apple doesn't make a rig so if you like calling your computer that, seek alternative vendors.

You keep acting like we aren't aware Apple doesn't make a real pro computer anymore... WE GET IT. Thats kind of why this entire thread exists.

 

[flat five]

You keep acting like we aren't aware Apple doesn't make a real pro computer anymore.

not really.. more like making fun of people who call their computer 'my rig'

 

[jdillings]

You bought a HP? You have my sympathies. We have them at work and they are garbage.

 

[fuchsdh]

The ones at my work (two Z800s, Z820, Z840) are certainly less reliable than the Mac Pros we have, but they're fine, I guess. Certainly they can be spec'd out with a dizzying array of options.

 

[sigmadog]

not really.. more like making fun of people who call their computer 'my rig'

I usually call it "my junk."

 

[AidenShaw]

I usually call it "my junk."

Don't touch my junk.

 

[zephonic]

You bought a HP? You have my sympathies. We have them at work and they are garbage.

The ones at my work (two Z800s, Z820, Z840) are certainly less reliable than the Mac Pros we have, but they're fine, I guess. Certainly they can be spec'd out with a dizzying array of options.

I wonder how much of that is HP's fault and how much it's just a matter of Windows being crap? I haven't used 10, but am pretty familiar with most previous iterations, and they ALL have given me trouble at some point. Ironically, the best were the cracked versions I bootcamped.

I half-suspect it is a ploy by MS to keep sys admins and IT departments employed.

 

[H2SO4]

I totally agree that it has its age and won't run newer OS'es as smooth as the older ones. But than I would rather have Apple say I can't update because my machine is too old than that it allows me to do it.

As for reverting back to an older version, I'll have a look into it, I thought it was impossible.

No not at all. It then becomes an arbitrary decision on their part when the fancy takes them, they end up saying things like, the iPhone4 cannot support Siri or the Original Mac Pro cannot support 10.8, How about - These are the minimum performance requirements, if any part of your system doesn’t meet this we may not be able to support it……..

 

[RestUnknown]

I just went back to Mavericks. I should have done this way earlier.

I don't miss any functionalities, it's much much more fluent and it feels back to normal.

 

[F1Mac]

I just went back to Mavericks. I should have done this way earlier.

I don't miss any functionalities, it's much much more fluent and it feels back to normal.

I guess that's because there are less of these unnecessary processes running in the background. Besides with Messages view "as boxes", no outdated bubbles anymore! /OT

 

[fuchsdh]

I wonder how much of that is HP's fault and how much it's just a matter of Windows being crap? I haven't used 10, but am pretty familiar with most previous iterations, and they ALL have given me trouble at some point. Ironically, the best were the cracked versions I bootcamped.

I half-suspect it is a ploy by MS to keep sys admins and IT departments employed.

At least in my case it's a little of column A, a little of column B. For all the tool-less design that's touted, putting in our own graphics cards and getting power for them and getting TB2 properly working was a pain in the ass. Had the PSUs on two different workstations futz out after less than a year (no way we were anywhere close to maxing loads). Hard drive in one workstation arrived DoA from HP.

I definitely see the appeal of HP's built-in 3 year warranty, but to me it's not a major plus; I have had no hardware issues besides bad third-party RAM on any desktop Mac I've owned, or any I've worked on. That's 14 Macs over 20 years, with some being used for 9 or 10 years.

I'm less likely to bitch about Windows because I don't always know what's Windows being stupid versus me just not being used to it. Also less adept at quickly troubleshooting Windows versus OS X, whereas hardware is hardware. Aside from how ass-backwards Windows continues to be for updates and installation, W10 certainly seems speedier on our hardware, and I haven't noticed any specific issues with it or incompatibilities with our software, or any more than Adobe usually does with the latest version of OS X.

In practice, I'm honestly using my 2011 Mac mini for most tasks save rendering or ingesting/handling huge key jobs or 4K footage. Outside of those use cases I'm not seeing the speed benefits that theoretically would come with doing everything on my workstation.*

*Outside of HP and Windows, a lot of this I suspect also has to do with Drobo, and the roulette of whether our NAS volumes will show up when I reboot or not.

 

[beaker7]

At least in my case it's a little of column A, a little of column B. For all the tool-less design that's touted, putting in our own graphics cards and getting power for them and getting TB2 properly working was a pain in the ass. Had the PSUs on two different workstations futz out after less than a year (no way we were anywhere close to maxing loads). Hard drive in one workstation arrived DoA from HP.

I definitely see the appeal of HP's built-in 3 year warranty, but to me it's not a major plus; I have had no hardware issues besides bad third-party RAM on any desktop Mac I've owned, or any I've worked on. That's 14 Macs over 20 years, with some being used for 9 or 10 years.

I'm less likely to bitch about Windows because I don't always know what's Windows being stupid versus me just not being used to it. Also less adept at quickly troubleshooting Windows versus OS X, whereas hardware is hardware. Aside from how ass-backwards Windows continues to be for updates and installation, W10 certainly seems speedier on our hardware, and I haven't noticed any specific issues with it or incompatibilities with our software, or any more than Adobe usually does with the latest version of OS X.

In practice, I'm honestly using my 2011 Mac mini for most tasks save rendering or ingesting/handling huge key jobs or 4K footage. Outside of those use cases I'm not seeing the speed benefits that theoretically would come with doing everything on my workstation.*

*Outside of HP and Windows, a lot of this I suspect also has to do with Drobo, and the roulette of whether our NAS volumes will show up when I reboot or not.

HP workstations often have a power supply appropriately sized for whatever graphics cards it was ordered with. If you order it with a 40w card and try to put 2 300w cards in, you're going to have problems. You can spec a higher power PSU at the time of order if that is your plan.

Drobo is like an aggressive form of cancer that spreads to everything around it, so it would not surprise me if that is causing all sorts of problems.

 

[alexgowers]

I kind of disagree with you. The mac has never been a professional choice ever, the apple mac has always been the device you buy if you are more into less intensive work. Even in the 90s and the power pc days, macs were underpowered and hard to upgrade and faced compatibility issues with anything not designed to work with it.

I think you are living in denial. For most creatives, mac pros, macbook pros etc work great but not because they at the bleeding edge of tech! If you edit 4k, the mac pro is a good choice if you are using final cut x as hardware acceleration is insane for render times and doesn't stutter despite not being the best hardware, this is what apples does best. However if you want to do CAD and 3D, play games or upgrade your system apple is just not for you.

At no point has apple served your needs the old Mac Pro tower certainly didn't. If you really want a super insane system go for a custom build and don't buy from a pc maker, you're just getting ripped off by them all for build costs and they end up cutting corners and not putting in the best hardware anyway.

Since most computers, even iPads are many times more powerful than pcs from 5-6 years ago, even phones can do everything most pro people need. I got a less powerful model myself as higher up the range was overkill for my cpu needs.

Honestly these days cpus have stalled in processing power and are concerned with power usage, GPUs are just killer and also concentrate on less power and more hardware specific functions, ram is fast enough, NVME or ssd drives are faster than most needs could ever be, thunderbolt 3 coming soon will kill usb and any need for PCIE slots, yes even GPUs might be an addon you can have.

Sure apple need to update their ranges, that is embarrassing. But honestly if you are concerned with raw specs you should not be buying from apple, and never should have been.

 

[fuchsdh]

HP workstations often have a power supply appropriately sized for whatever graphics cards it was ordered with. If you order it with a 40w card and try to put 2 300w cards in, you're going to have problems. You can spec a higher power PSU at the time of order if that is your plan.

Drobo is like an aggressive form of cancer that spreads to everything around it, so it would not surprise me if that is causing all sorts of problems.

These were 1125W PSUs running single Titan Z and Titan X cards. It was the PSUs, not us.

 

[rockyromero]

Honestly these days cpus have stalled in processing power and are concerned with power usage, GPUs are just killer and also concentrate on less power and more hardware specific functions, ram is fast enough, NVME or ssd drives are faster than most needs could ever be, thunderbolt 3 coming soon will kill usb and any need for PCIE slots, yes even GPUs might be an addon you can have.

I'm in agreement with this.

Moore's law is quickly diminishing.

What is left is adding existing processors to satisfy increased demand.

As fast as the HP Z840 is today, will it satisfy the computing needs years from now, assuming demand continues to grow.

Cloud rendering is an option.

The other option is tandem processing and virtualization. However, that evolves.

I'll just keep adding another Mac Pro, paid my newer clients.

 

[AidenShaw]

What is left is adding existing processors to satisfy increased demand.

As fast as the HP Z840 is today, will it satisfy the computing needs years from now, assuming demand continues to grow.

The Z840 doesn't "satisfy computing needs" today for many (probably most) of its customers. I would bet that many/most of them are used for development, quick previews or rough prototyping - and the real work is done on background server clusters.

Cloud rendering is an option.

If you're rendering certain kinds of (usually small) models or clips.[/quote]
If your model or "clip" is tens to tens of thousands of gigabytes, the cloud won't help you. You need a "private cloud" within your own 10Gbps to 100Gbps LAN/SAN for that.

The other option is tandem processing and virtualization. However, that evolves.

You should look at Apache Spark - it's a distributed cluster computing framework that can split many types of applications into pieces, run them on multiple systems, and coalesce the output.

Not sure what you mean by virtualization - it simply give you more, but slower, nodes.