Apple Offers to Open NFC Payment Technology to Third-Party Developers in Europe

[BC2009]

This is a good thing that Apple is settling and offering this solution rather than fighting it tooth and nail. If somebody wants to trust a company other than Apple with their payments that should be their call. Personally, I much prefer Apple Pay, Apple Pay Cash and Zelle. I have Venmo, but I am not a fan of that service — I only use it because some vendors only accept Venmo. But people should have a choice in these matters — banking is a pretty privacy sensitive thing and different people may put their trust with different services.

 

[lartola]

Which memberstate of the EU has not got any banks that support Apple Pay?

None that I know. However, while all EU members do have at least one bank that supports apple pay, they also still have some banks not supporting it. It’s not like every single bank in the EU supports apple pay, and people don’t usually change banks just for apple pay.

 

[tooobe]

It's fascinating how Apple isn't punished monetarily for not enabling it until now. They have been able to profit hugely from not allowing access to NFC for years and years.

 

[lartola]

This is a good thing that Apple is settling and offering this solution rather than fighting it tooth and nail. If somebody wants to trust a company other than Apple with their payments that should be their call. Personally, I much prefer Apple Pay, Apple Pay Cash and Zelle. I have Venmo, but I am not a fan of that service — I only use it because some vendors only accept Venmo. But people should have a choice in these matters — banking is a pretty privacy sensitive thing and different people may put their trust with different services.

Note that we’re talking about banks using the iphone’s nfc here. Anyone who doesn’t trust a bank as much as they trust Apple, why do they even have their money in a bank at all?

 

[lartola]

The reason these banks aren’t supporting Apple Pay is because Apple asks for too big fee so they just decline it.

But it would be nice if Apple Cash would actually be usable >.> or that being able to register an ID etc, but Apple takes forever to do such conveniences

And I would say the biggest benefit of apples NFC or other things being opened up is that we won’t need to wait forever for iPhone functions we purchased at full price with our phones to actually be usable.

When will wallet ID get here?
When will the satellite emergency function become available in EU, 10 years?

View attachment 2339614

We know that, so people whose bank won’t pay apple’s fee can still use the iphone to pay with their cards using the bank’s app if apple opens up access to the nfc antenna.

As for Apple Cash, Apple needs to partner with a bank to offer the service, which they did in the US, and that’s what has made it difficult to roll it out outside the US.

 

[lartola]

So what would make their bank support Apple Pay thereafter? Which countries in the EEA don't have any banks supporting Apple Pay? And then why not just open up another bank account if you want it so much?

Maybe they won’t ever support apple pay, but at least customers of non-supporting banks will have an alternative to pay with their iphone and won’t be stuck with just the physical card.

As for non-supporting apple pay banks in the EEA, the only member I know without any is Andorra. Nonetheless, while all other members do have at least one bank supporting apple pay they also have at least one bank still not supporting it.

Finally, most people aren’t usually willing to switch banks or open another bank account just to use a mobile wallet.

 

[lartola]

It's fascinating how Apple isn't punished monetarily for not enabling it until now. They have been able to profit hugely from not allowing access to NFC for years and years.

Actually, it’s fascinating how they haven’t paid any consequences at all for any of their abusive business practices.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Quite the contrary. The EU has legally shifted responsibility for card fraud for "insecure" transactions to the issuer.
They have capped customer liability to certain amounts.

Sorry, you are talking about different things. U.S. Networks also shifted liability for swipe transactions, but, unlike the EU, no transactions put the burden of proof on the consumer. With the shift to EMV, Europe shifted the burden of proof for claims of fraudulent transactions to the card holder, while here it is still on the merchant (see linked article).

 

[tooobe]

Actually, it’s fascinating how they haven’t paid any consequences at all for any of their abusive business practices.

Agreed. The EU has forced them to make some concessions at least.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

None that I know. However, while all EU members do have at least one bank that supports apple pay, they also still have some banks not supporting it. It’s not like every single bank in the EU supports apple pay, and people don’t usually change banks just for apple pay.

So they have a choice depending on whether they find the feature important or not?

And when they do wit

Maybe they won’t ever support apple pay, but at least customers of non-supporting banks will have an alternative to pay with their iphone and won’t be stuck with just the physical card.

As for non-supporting apple pay banks in the EEA, the only member I know without any is Andorra. Nonetheless, while all other members do have at least one bank supporting apple pay they also have at least one bank still not supporting it.

Finally, most people aren’t usually willing to switch banks or open another bank account just to use a mobile wallet.

Andorra 🤣 Fair enough without checking I’ll give you that one. Perhaps the Vatican and Liechtenstein can join them. But hey good thing as they can get a bank account from any EU country without a problem if that want that specific feature right now. My banks are in four different countries. No problems at all with that. I also have private banks who provide specific services.

I still don’t see the point you are making as the consumers have the choice today. If they have a need they can open it right now and add their digital card to it.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Sorry, you are talking about different things. U.S. Networks also shifted liability for swipe transactions, but, unlike the EU, no transactions put the burden of proof on the consumer. With the shift to EMV, Europe shifted the burden of proof for claims of fraudulent transactions to the card holder, while here it is still on the merchant (see linked article).

And woosh we are back to 2015 and even then that article was questionable. It seems you are clutching straw.

 

[lartola]

Sorry, you are talking about different things. U.S. Networks also shifted liability for swipe transactions, but, unlike the EU, no transactions put the burden of proof on the consumer. With the shift to EMV, Europe shifted the burden of proof for claims of fraudulent transactions to the card holder, while here it is still on the merchant (see linked article).

Except that in the US, unlike in the rest of the world, they neglected to also shift liability for restaurants still taking the cards out of the sight of their owners. Not doing so defeats the purpose of having them upgrade to chip.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Except that in the US, unlike in the rest of the world, they neglected to also shift liability for restaurants still taking the cards out of the sight of their owners. Not doing so defeats the purpose of having them upgrade to chip.

That is always an insane thing to me, why would anyone ever let someone else walk away with their card and make the payment?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

That is always an insane thing to me, why would anyone ever let someone else walk away with their card and make the payment?

Definitely. Never ever, ever. No need for it. Heck, I raise an eyebrow at the establishment if they can't bring a wireless PDQ terminal to me. Then again, they have no choice, I rarely carry physical cards with me. Here in Europe, it is just not required, even market traders and food stalls have them. LOL my mum doesn't like entering her card details online when groceries arrive, the delivery people have a wireless pdq terminal. My financial service provider generates a unique card number for each online transaction that is just single use.

The US payment systems are just so antiquated, its a shame.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Definitely. Never ever, ever. No need for it. Heck, I raise an eyebrow at the establishment if they can't bring a wireless PDQ terminal to me. Then again, they have no choice, I rarely carry physical cards with me. Here in Europe, it is just not required, even market traders and food stalls have them. LOL my mum doesn't like entering her card details online when groceries arrive, the delivery people have a wireless pdq terminal. My financial service provider generates a unique card number for each online transaction that is just single use.

The US payment systems are just so antiquated, its a shame.

Absolutely I live in Europe and have travelled a lot, and every time a restaurant ask for the my Forex card to pay I always get surprised.
Ether they get the payment terminal to me, or I’m going to the payment terminal.

At no point will my card ever leave my possession.

Once I did it with a debit card just for fun as they insisted… then they had to comeback with the terminal anyway for me to enter the PIN code because they couldn’t do the payment otherwise.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Except that in the US, unlike in the rest of the world, they neglected to also shift liability for restaurants still taking the cards out of the sight of their owners. Not doing so defeats the purpose of having them upgrade to chip.

That is not correct. Liability shifted for them as well, but most determined that they did not care, as they had very few charge backs. While I prefer using Apple Pay (and can even in many restaurants that would normally take my card), it turns out that it is not a serious security issue. Since the purpose of upgrading to EMV verified transactions was cutting fraud and since high-end sit down restaurants are not a major source of fraud, I am not sure how restraints deciding that they did not suffer enough fraud to worry about charge backs defeated the purpose of the EMV change.

 

[lartola]

That is not correct. Liability shifted for them as well, but most determined that they did not care, as they had very few charge backs. While I prefer using Apple Pay (and can even in many restaurants that would normally take my card), it turns out that it is not a serious security issue. Since the purpose of upgrading to EMV verified transactions was cutting fraud and since high-end sit down restaurants are not a major source of fraud, I am not sure how restraints deciding that they did not suffer enough fraud to worry about charge backs defeated the purpose of the EMV change.

You missed the point entirely. Yes, liability shifted for US restaurants, but only for those found to be still processing card payments via magnetic stripe, just like for any other business. Having the staff walk away with the customers’ credit cards still doesn’t result in a liability shift for restaurants in the US like it does for restaurants in other countries, and that was a big negligence of the US regulators.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Having the staff walk away with the customers’ credit cards still doesn’t result in a liability shift for restaurants in the US like it does for restaurants in other countries, and that was a big negligence of the US regulators.

How does it matter to consumers where the secure payment is processed? EMV does not require a PIN in the U.S. for almost any card, primarily because credit cards were so widely accepted here that pin-based debt cards were never really a thing. Restaurants are not a big source of fraud here (and that percentage has dropped further with the adoption of EMV). In addition, none of this has anything to do with U.S. regulators. Unlike in Europe, none of this directly affected the consumer as the law always made it so they were not responsible. The liability shift here was between merchants and issuers/networks, and it was the networks that shifted the liability among those parties.

I get that you do not like giving up your card, but what exactly is your concern? (I prefer using Apple Pay, and in most restaurants here that take your card, one can still do it, one just has to go to the terminal.)

 

[Alan Wynn]

Some interesting statistics on mobile payments that I found while looking for other data (not directly related to the discussion):

China is the number one mobile payment market with 87.3% of people using it (in 2021).

South Korea is number two in percentage (45.6%), but much lower in terms of number of people than the U.S.

Italy has the highest penetration in Europe at 25.9% (UK 24.4%, France 21.1%, and Germany at 19% are next).

The U.S. has the second highest number of users (43.2% of the U.S. population is greater than 45.6% of Korea's population) and dwarfs all of Europe.

Apple Pay is the most popular mobile in the U.K. at 68% (PayPal at 34%, Google Pay at 28% and Samsung Pay at 8% are next in line).

In the U.S., Apple Pay is number one at 43.9 million users, Starbucks is number two 31.2 million, with Google Pay 25.2 million and Samsung Pay 16.3 million next in line.

Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay combined and over 90% of value of U.S. mobile transactions.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Sorry, you are talking about different things. U.S. Networks also shifted liability for swipe transactions, but, unlike the EU, no transactions put the burden of proof on the consumer. With the shift to EMV, Europe shifted the burden of proof for claims of fraudulent transactions to the card holder, while here it is still on the merchant (see linked article).

When 3DS2 is used for authentication, the chargeback liability shifts from the business to the issuer.
For example, if a lost or stolen card is successfully used to complete a transaction where 3DS2 is in place, the liability shifts from the business to the card issuer.

1. Use magnetic strip instead of Chip
2. Use the card online without verifying the owner
3. Card without Chip
4. Pay without PIN

in EU:

1. Chip is obligatory, magnetic strip can’t be used
2. eID verification of the card holder is obligatory for online card payment
3. Cards aren’t allowed without a chip
4. You can’t pay without pin.

And with fact in hand fraud on all levels have declined in EU.

While in the U.S. it’s just considered cost of doing business instead of long term investments to eliminate it.

Eu: 1.29 billion € fraud losses equivalent to 2.1 cents per €100 in 2023. Or 0.021%
USA: 13.4 billion $ fraud losses equivalent to 10.4 cents per $100 in 2023. Or 0.1%

US: 0.104%
EU: 0.021%

Andorra 🤣 Fair enough without checking I’ll give you that one. Perhaps the Vatican and Liechtenstein can join them. But hey good thing as they can get a bank account from any EU country without a problem if that want that specific feature right now.

Well Forex bank doesn’t offer Apple Pay 🤷‍♂️

 

[cyb3rdud3]

When 3DS2 is used for authentication, the chargeback liability shifts from the business to the issuer.
For example, if a lost or stolen card is successfully used to complete a transaction where 3DS2 is in place, the liability shifts from the business to the card issuer.

1. Use magnetic strip instead of Chip
2. Use the card online without verifying the owner
3. Card without Chip
4. Pay without PIN

in EU:

1. Chip is obligatory, magnetic strip can’t be used
2. eID verification of the card holder is obligatory for online card payment
3. Cards aren’t allowed without a chip
4. You can’t pay without pin.

And with fact in hand fraud on all levels have declined in EU.

While in the U.S. it’s just considered cost of doing business instead of long term investments to eliminate it.

Eu: 1.29 billion € fraud losses equivalent to 2.1 cents per €100 in 2023. Or 0.021%
USA: 13.4 billion $ fraud losses equivalent to 10.4 cents per $100 in 2023. Or 0.1%

US: 0.104%
EU: 0.021%
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Well Forex bank doesn’t offer Apple Pay 🤷‍♂️

Get Revolut Pretty awesome app and a fantastic multi-currency card. Also, very crypto-friendly. Plenty of card options available for anyone's need. And got better exchange rates compared to Forex Bank. It's the good thing about the EU, you can open an account costless anywhere; get an N26 from Germany, or an OpenBank (Santander) from Spain. All good, all covered, all instant transfers within the zone. And they do support Apple Wallet and many others.

 

[gregmancuso]

But who's saying they are dropping Apple Pay? Apple Pay is already widely adopted so it would be hard to roll back. And if they did, they'd bring in some alternative surely, so you could use their solution instead, just not go back to physical card again.

Responses like this are either disingenuous or oblivious to the point raised. Today people have (almost) all cards in Apple Wallet. I’d venture that many do not carry the physical card for each account they have. Having every bank have its own app - either added to their current app or some new payment app - would require people who want to find the app for the desired card. Open said app. Navigate to the payment option. Authorize payment. Tap iPhone.

Questions:

1. Will the bank keep its card(s) in Apple Pay. You may say yes. But how many banks do you know would not seriously consider removing (or actually do it) to save the 0.15% transaction fee? Or gain direct access to the POS transaction? And you can bet that should Apple require banks supporting Apple Pay to access the NFC in their apps half the people on this site would be reaching pitchforks and crying antitrust, Appl unfair, Apple greedy, or monopoly.
2. How easy will the selection of a card be for people with multiple cards for a bank? No one can guess that now.
3. How will all the affinity and cobranded cards work? Does everyone know to open the Synchrony app to use their QVC card? Do people with a QVC card necessarily even know who Synchrony is?
4. Do you trust banks to develop a well-designed app in the first place let alone adding NFC payments? Comerica, for example, has the most absolutely miserable app. It is u usable. You have to log into their web site to do anything. It barely functions as a statement reader. I’m sure they are not the only one.

So, yes, in order to be assured of having access to all cards in an easy to locate and select fashion you have two choices - Apple Pay or physical cards.

yes this is me use case, but bear with me. I despise a thick wallet. I carry a very thin ID case with a couple os outside pockets. I rotate my physical card so they get used (cannot have account dormancy) for the few places that don’t take Apple Pay. For the places that take Apple Pay is use it selecting the appropriate card. For places that don’t, I am forced to use the physical card. And I try to avoid places that require the physical are. I will never open a bank app to make an NFC payment.

 

[gregmancuso]

So not allowing alternative NFC payments is also less choice?

In your scenario, government isn't taking away your choice, private companies do. Banks in one scenario and Apple in the other.

Who in their right mind would make the choice to use a bank’s app to pay for something and another’s app for something else vs all cards in one well designed, simple wallet?

I guess you are right. I now have the choice to never use that bank’s card ever again.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Responses like this are either disingenuous or oblivious to the point raised. Today people have (almost) all cards in Apple Wallet. I’d venture that many do not carry the physical card for each account they have. Having every bank have its own app - either added to their current app or some new payment app - would require people who want to find the app for the desired card. Open said app. Navigate to the payment option. Authorize payment. Tap iPhone.

Questions:

1. Will the bank keep its card(s) in Apple Pay. You may say yes. But how many banks do you know would not seriously consider removing (or actually do it) to save the 0.15% transaction fee? Or gain direct access to the POS transaction? And you can bet that should Apple require banks supporting Apple Pay to access the NFC in their apps half the people on this site would be reaching pitchforks and crying antitrust, Appl unfair, Apple greedy, or monopoly.
2. How easy will the selection of a card be for people with multiple cards for a bank? No one can guess that now.
3. How will all the affinity and cobranded cards work? Does everyone know to open the Synchrony app to use their QVC card? Do people with a QVC card necessarily even know who Synchrony is?
4. Do you trust banks to develop a well-designed app in the first place let alone adding NFC payments? Comerica, for example, has the most absolutely miserable app. It is u usable. You have to log into their web site to do anything. It barely functions as a statement reader. I’m sure they are not the only one.

So, yes, in order to be assured of having access to all cards in an easy to locate and select fashion you have two choices - Apple Pay or physical cards.

yes this is me use case, but bear with me. I despise a thick wallet. I carry a very thin ID case with a couple os outside pockets. I rotate my physical card so they get used (cannot have account dormancy) for the few places that don’t take Apple Pay. For the places that take Apple Pay is use it selecting the appropriate card. For places that don’t, I am forced to use the physical card. And I try to avoid places that require the physical are. I will never open a bank app to make an NFC payment.

Many of these questions are easy to answer

1. Yes if the services provided by Apple Pay is worth the fee they charge compared to alternative/ their own solution.
2. Not sure what you’re asking, all the cards from a bank are enrolled
3. There are currently zero co-branded and affinity cardsthat support Apple Pay in EU
4. Well yes why wouldn’t we? The Banks are required to follow EU security and banking standards. That is why we have 0.021% fraudulent transactions while USA have 0.1

Plus 100% of establishments in EU with NFC terminals support Apple Pay.

 

[gregmancuso]

One thing that comes to my mind is loyalty cards. The two largest retailers in Finland have NFC-enabled Android apps for their loalty cards that work alongside Google Pay while iOS users have had to settle for solutions like now-defunct MobilePay

Supported since iPhone 6 . iOS 9.