Apple Offers to Open NFC Payment Technology to Third-Party Developers in Europe

[gregmancuso]

I dunno how I feel about this. I'm not sure I like it but I hope that they open NFC functionality for smart card use. It would be AMAZING to use for use as say Apartment or Dorm unlocking or any number of uses

Already supported. At least one of the major chains (Hyatt?) uses NFC keys in their app or added to the Wallet. Marriott was too early and built out a Bluetooth solution but was working on switching before the pandemic. Not sure the status now.

ETA: Apple uses this for their site access now. It was shown people using their phones and watches to access the building during one of the keynotes.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Responses like this are either disingenuous or oblivious to the point raised. Today people have (almost) all cards in Apple Wallet. I’d venture that many do not carry the physical card for each account they have. Having every bank have its own app - either added to their current app or some new payment app - would require people who want to find the app for the desired card. Open said app. Navigate to the payment option. Authorize payment. Tap iPhone.

Questions:

1. Will the bank keep its card(s) in Apple Pay. You may say yes. But how many banks do you know would not seriously consider removing (or actually do it) to save the 0.15% transaction fee? Or gain direct access to the POS transaction? And you can bet that should Apple require banks supporting Apple Pay to access the NFC in their apps half the people on this site would be reaching pitchforks and crying antitrust, Appl unfair, Apple greedy, or monopoly.
2. How easy will the selection of a card be for people with multiple cards for a bank? No one can guess that now.
3. How will all the affinity and cobranded cards work? Does everyone know to open the Synchrony app to use their QVC card? Do people with a QVC card necessarily even know who Synchrony is?
4. Do you trust banks to develop a well-designed app in the first place let alone adding NFC payments? Comerica, for example, has the most absolutely miserable app. It is u usable. You have to log into their web site to do anything. It barely functions as a statement reader. I’m sure they are not the only one.

So, yes, in order to be assured of having access to all cards in an easy to locate and select fashion you have two choices - Apple Pay or physical cards.

yes this is me use case, but bear with me. I despise a thick wallet. I carry a very thin ID case with a couple os outside pockets. I rotate my physical card so they get used (cannot have account dormancy) for the few places that don’t take Apple Pay. For the places that take Apple Pay is use it selecting the appropriate card. For places that don’t, I am forced to use the physical card. And I try to avoid places that require the physical are. I will never open a bank app to make an NFC payment.

As a very good example to you:
In Sweden we have a payment app called Swish, it doesn’t use a card but is directly connected to your banking account of choice and offer instantaneous transactions and all banks in Sweden support it.

And currently because Apple NFC is so limited we are forced to use separate apps for different services because Apple ( and USA) is very far behind in electronic banking services and ID.

 

[gregmancuso]

Many of these questions are easy to answer

1. Yes if the services provided by Apple Pay is worth the fee they charge compared to alternative/ their own solution.
2. Not sure what you’re asking, all the cards from a bank are enrolled
3. There are currently zero co-branded and affinity cardsthat support Apple Pay in EU
4. Well yes why wouldn’t we? The Banks are required to follow EU security and banking standards. That is why we have 0.021% fraudulent transactions while USA have 0.1

Plus 100% of establishments in EU with NFC terminals support Apple Pay.

It was probably obvious i am not in Europe. I am thinking about this more as a global issue. Once it happens in one region it will inevitably migrate to all.

1. Yes, the banks need to decide on the value. Many in Europe still do not support Apple Pay. Perhaps due to fees or perhaps some other reason. For those that do support now likely have used it more as a differentiator and ate the fee. Who can say if that would continue. Leaving apply pay and supporting NFC in app still provides that differentiator. At least until the other apps add support in their apps.
2. Some of the bank apps are horrible. Yes all accounts are viewable. Who is to say how the payment process / card selection would work.
3. While I made this comment from a US perspective, that surprises me? Costco and Amazon Prime both have branded credit cards. Costco is Citi. Prime is Chase. At least here. Both banks support Apple Pay with their cards but may require apps later. Vauxhall’s cobranded card was backed by GMAC Financial up until recently when they switched to Santander. Santander supports Apple Pay for most of their cards. So I would have expected Vauxhall’s CC to be available. And would people know which app to open if app-based NFC were the only option?
4. I am talking about the app design and functionality. I don’t doubt security. The one I gave as an example is atrocious. They would have done better to wrap a WebKit frame in an app and called it a day than try to build an actual app.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It was probably obvious i am not in Europe. I am thinking about this more as a global issue. Once it happens in one region it will inevitably migrate to all.

1. Yes, the banks need to decide on the value. Many in Europe still do not support Apple Pay. Perhaps due to fees or perhaps some other reason. For those that do support now likely have used it more as a differentiator and ate the fee. Who can say if that would continue. Leaving apply pay and supporting NFC in app still provides that differentiator. At least until the other apps add support in their apps.
2. Some of the bank apps are horrible. Yes all accounts are viewable. Who is to say how the payment process / card selection would work.
3. While I made this comment from a US perspective, that surprises me? Costco and Amazon Prime both have branded credit cards. Costco is Citi. Prime is Chase. At least here. Both banks support Apple Pay with their cards but may require apps later. Vauxhall’s cobranded card was backed by GMAC Financial up until recently when they switched to Santander. Santander supports Apple Pay for most of their cards. So I would have expected Vauxhall’s CC to be available. And would people know which app to open if app-based NFC were the only option?
4. I am talking about the app design and functionality. I don’t doubt security. The one I gave as an example is atrocious. They would have done better to wrap a WebKit frame in an app and called it a day than try to build an actual app.

1. A LOT of banks support Apple Pay in EU. I would dare to say just about everyone, many banks have been in negotiations for years and years over the fees, some just started to support it a year or so ago. Considering how things are done in EU it’s very likely a bank network wide application will be used. Just how eID banking is supported by 100% of banks in any given country, but they all use one app. In Sweden we have ~100 banks and they all support eID and about 70~ can give out eID identification. And it’s all under 1 app
2. True, but unlikely especially with EU legislation currently in the work for a EU wide implementation for a single Electronic identification that can be used in any member state and banking systems.
3. Well we do have some, but they are essentially their own bank to do that. Such as SAS(airline), Norwegian(airline), volvo(cars), BMW(cars) etc etc. they aren’t associated with a bank, but with a card network such as visa or Mastercard.
4. I can believe you.

 

[lartola]

How does it matter to consumers where the secure payment is processed? EMV does not require a PIN in the U.S. for almost any card, primarily because credit cards were so widely accepted here that pin-based debt cards were never really a thing. Restaurants are not a big source of fraud here (and that percentage has dropped further with the adoption of EMV). In addition, none of this has anything to do with U.S. regulators. Unlike in Europe, none of this directly affected the consumer as the law always made it so they were not responsible. The liability shift here was between merchants and issuers/networks, and it was the networks that shifted the liability among those parties.

I get that you do not like giving up your card, but what exactly is your concern? (I prefer using Apple Pay, and in most restaurants here that take your card, one can still do it, one just has to go to the terminal.)

When your card is out of your sight for a few minutes there’s always a risk that someone may just write down your card info. It may be tiny, but it isn’t zero, it still exists. Better to prevent it now that tech makes that possible. Besides, paying at the table makes it possible to add a tip before they run your card on the reader so that when they actually run it the charge will include the tip if you chose to leave a tip.
Also, it’s not EMV that doesn’t require a pin, it’s only credit cards. Debit cards in the US do require a pin, though merchants can sometimes bypass it by running them as credit.

 

[lartola]

.

 

[Alan Wynn]

When your card is out of your sight for a few minutes there’s always a risk that someone may just write down your card info. It may be tiny, but it isn’t zero, it still exists. Better to prevent it now that tech makes that possible.

Got it, so you are motivated by a chance so close to zero here as to approximate zero. Cool.

Besides, paying at the table makes it possible to add a tip before they run your card on the reader so that when they actually run it the charge will include the tip if you chose to leave a tip.

Again, why does this matter to me as a customer?

Also, it’s not EMV that doesn’t require a pin, it’s only credit cards. Debit cards in the US do require a pin, though merchants can sometimes bypass it by running them as credit.

Almost no U.S. consumers in the U.S. use debit cards not as credit cards as then they would commonly pay the cost of the transaction fee, rather than using it as a credit card where they do not have to do that. Again, Americans had near universal credit card acceptance and never went through the debit phase that happened in Europe.

 

[lartola]

Almost no U.S. consumers in the U.S. use debit cards not as credit cards as then they would commonly pay the cost of the transaction fee, rather than using it as a credit card where they do not have to do that. Again, Americans had near universal credit card acceptance and never went through the debit phase that happened in Europe.

It’s not the customers who decide whether to run a debit card as debit or credit, it’s the merchants who decide that. And they sometimes but not always decide to run it as credit to avoid the pin requirement. The customer doesn’t even notice how they’re running the debit card.

Restaurants, for example, always run debit cards as credit to bypass the pin requirement, otherwise the pin requirement would complícate things because they process the payments away from the customers.

 

[Roadstar]

Supported since iPhone 6 . iOS 9.

Maybe there are additional fees and/or limitations that haven't made that option more popular. For after all, it doesn't sound like that's too commonly used even in the US, let alone here (i.e. not at all).

 

[AndiG]

So what did Apple do wrong by protecting the consumer?

You got something wrong here. Apple isn‘t trying to protect the consumer but it‘s business.

Apples policy is to make money by locking the customer in and competition out. This is the only thing the EU tries to brake, nothing else.

 

[lartola]

Maybe there are additional fees and/or limitations that haven't made that option more popular. For after all, it doesn't sound like that's too commonly used even in the US, let alone here (i.e. not at all).

Nah they just don’t care to support nfc loyalty cards on iOS becuse 80% of people use Android. At least outside the US.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Got it, so you are motivated by a chance so close to zero here as to approximate zero. Cool.

Statistics says differently.usa have 5x the amount of fraud
EU actually have close to zero card present fraud.

Almost no U.S. consumers in the U.S. use debit cards not as credit cards as then they would commonly pay the cost of the transaction fee, rather than using it as a credit card where they do not have to do that. Again, Americans had near universal credit card acceptance and never went through the debit phase that happened in Europe.

We don’t have different rules for debit and credit cards. And is commonly just referred to as a card.

Both have required a chip and PIn for 20+ years and the use of Magnetic strip have been discontinued for just as long.

 

[Roadstar]

Nah they just don’t care to support nfc loyalty cards on iOS becuse 80% of people use Android. At least outside the US.

Well in Finland it's not that strong for Android. I found a statistic from October 2023 that gives 37% to iOS and 67% to Android, which is quite well in line with what I'm seeing with friends, family, and others. In addition, whenever the stores in question are asked for iOS support, they cite "Apple's restrictions" as the reason for the lack of support. So it's hard to say if their information is just outdated or the current system has some costs/limitations they aren't willing to deal with.

 

[lartola]

Well in Finland it's not that strong for Android. I found a statistic from October 2023 that gives 37% to iOS and 67% to Android, which is quite well in line with what I'm seeing with friends, family, and others. In addition, whenever the stores in question are asked for iOS support, they cite "Apple's restrictions" as the reason for the lack of support. So it's hard to say if their information is just outdated or the current system has some costs/limitations they aren't willing to deal with.

It’s still an overwhelming majority using Android. Not surprising they don’t want to provide much support for iOS with only 37% using it.

 

[AppliedMicro]

With the shift to EMV, Europe shifted the burden of proof for claims of fraudulent transactions to the card holder, while here it is still on the merchant (see linked article).

It doesn’t. That’s not what the linked article says. First and foremost, the switch to EMV improves customer authentication and security. The claim that “the total amount of fraud following EMV basically stays the same” is nonsense.

“Card-present fraud in the form of using counterfeit cards at shops and ATMs declined by 37% in 2020 and by 42% in 2021, as the global roll-out of industry standards almost eradicated such fraud”

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/cardfraud/html/ecb.cardfraudreport202305~5d832d6515.en.html
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/cardfraud/html/ecb.cardfraudreport202110~cac4c418e8.en.html#toc5

As for non-supporting apple pay banks in the EEA, the only member I know without any is Andorra

Andorra is not an EEA member state.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Once the criminals decide how they are going to get their fair share, the card issuers will be in the hook?

The EU provided “incentives” for card issuers to improve security - fraud has decreased as a result, thereby lowering the transactions costs for card payments.

When I renewed my ID I was only able to either pay cash or Girocard

Local governments are - unfortunately - a notable exception in Germany. But then, they sometimes have the audacity to not even accept cash.

But these got nothing to do with shopping as a Swiss or everyday payment transactions.

 

[AppliedMicro]

I dunno how I feel about this. I'm not sure I like it but I hope that they open NFC functionality for smart card use. It would be AMAZING to use for use as say Apartment or Dorm unlocking or any number of uses

It is open already. I can download an iOS app to unlock my apartment door today.

If Apple hadn’t opened it already, some people here would probably claim that’s doing so would jeopardise their security. That no system is trustworthy - except Apple’s proprietary door access control system (“Apple Key™”), which Apple charges a 30% licensing fee per lock for. And how they’re now being the choice of their secure walled garden, yada yada…

It once again shows Apple selectively withholding hardware access from third-parties - where it benefits themselves in an anticompetitive manner.

 

[I7guy]

The EU provided “incentives” for card issuers to improve security - fraud has decreased as a result, thereby lowering the transactions costs for card payments.

Local governments are - unfortunately - a notable exception in Germany. But then, they sometimes have the audacity to not even accept cash.

But these got nothing to do with shopping as a Swiss or everyday payment transactions.

That doesn’t mean criminals won’t find a way to get around security measures.

 

[Alan Wynn]

It’s not the customers who decide whether to run a debit card as debit or credit, it’s the merchants who decide that.

Are you describing the system in the U.S. or in Europe?

In this country, for those merchants that supported debit card transactions at the POS (a small number as it was never popular here), customers could choose which they wanted (it was most common in grocery stores so that customers could get cash back from the transaction - a larger reason Discover started offering that as an option). It was used so rarely (as it cost the user more) that many merchants stopped supporting it.

And they sometimes but not always decide to run it as credit to avoid the pin requirement.

Again, are you talking about in the U.S. or other places? From having talked to people at quite a few of the POS systems, almost no merchants offer debit card processing as customers never really saw a benefit (although there was a slightly lower fee for the merchant and paid by the user). Since it was confusing and offered no real benefit to the user, most just stopped offering it.

The customer doesn’t even notice how they’re running the debit card.

They know if it is being run as a debit card as they have to enter a PIN. Again, it is so rare out side grocery stores here, that I almost never see it.

Restaurants, for example, always run debit cards as credit to bypass the pin requirement, otherwise the pin requirement would complícate things because they process the payments away from the customers.

You mean table service restaurants where the server processes the charge at the POS? Most restaurants are fast food or quick serve and the customer presents the card to the cashier. Given the downside of using a debit card (either as a debit card or processed as a credit card) vs. an actual credit card, more Americans use credit cards instead.

 

[Roadstar]

It’s still an overwhelming majority using Android. Not surprising they don’t want to provide much support for iOS with only 37% using it.

That 37% is still a sizable crowd and typically also with a better average income, so the stores do have an incentive to serve them (for after all, all apps have feature parity apart from functionality that Apple has so far restricted) unless it's made unnecessarily difficult by the platform owner. That's why I'm hoping this change would give them a bit more frictionless way to provide similar service as they do for Android phones.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

That doesn’t mean criminals won’t find a way to get around security measures.

The easiest hack these days is the people using the cards

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That doesn’t mean criminals won’t find a way to get around security measures.

It does. As it seems they aren’t getting around the security measures.

USA 0.1% fraud and increasing
EU 0.02% fraud and lowering

 

[AppliedMicro]

That doesn’t mean criminals won’t find a way to get around security measures.

…just as having a single, centralised App Store doesn’t mean criminals won’t find a way to get around Apple’s security measures and app review for iOS apps?

EMV really does improve the security of card transactions - whereas an Apple app reviewer reviewing 50-100 app a day is a bit of a pretense of security.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It’s not the customers who decide whether to run a debit card as debit or credit, it’s the merchants who decide that. And they sometimes but not always decide to run it as credit to avoid the pin requirement. The customer doesn’t even notice how they’re running the debit card.

Restaurants, for example, always run debit cards as credit to bypass the pin requirement, otherwise the pin requirement would complícate things because they process the payments away from the customers.

Are you describing the system in the U.S.?
In EU the customer is the one who decides if they want to use debit or credit cards.

The merchants doesn’t really have a choice, because the card terminals available must support both.
And In EU all cards must use chip and PIN, credit cards aren’t excepted and I don’t see why they would be in the U.S.

Because That sounds insane, unethical and very illegal. The U.S. really need to improve their security standards for the payment system in to the 21th century.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Exectly that! If the notion that anyone along the chain can change manually what type of card anyone is using doesn't set big alarm bells ringing on how bad the system is without appropriate checks and balances then I really don't know what could cause reason for concern.