Apple Rivals Unite to Promote Open Ecosystems Using EU Law

[ozaz]

I will copy and paste this. Apparently most developers don't mind piracy as much since it is free publicity to them but yes Android users effectively do pirate significantly more than IOS users(since IOS users are far more likely to pay).

"So, is it true that Android is playing into the hands of pirates? Yes. So, is it true that 95% of the app users hunt Android Apps for pirated copies? Yes. So, is it true that the stolen Android software practically outnumbers iOS counterparts by 14:1. Yes. Is it true that because of the high piracy rates of Android apps, devs choose iOS over Android stores while launching their apps? Yes.

So, the bottom line is: if even if Android applies every ounce of its technical muscle to end piracy, it simply can’t do anything about it because it has been championing open source cause so freely.

Here are some more startling Android App Piracy statistics for your eyes to feast on:​

Today Calendar Pro app — 85% of its downloads are pirated here. Yes, you read that right 85%. Meaning, only 15% are paid downloads (source: androidpolice.com).

Towelfight 2 game — This game app has been pirated no fewer than 34,091 , while on the iOS it stands at 2,438.

Monument Valley — 95% of its apps are pirated on Android, while it’s 60% on iOS (source: appindex.com).

Gentleman –144 paid installs while 50,030 copies were pirated within three weeks of its release in 2013 (source: gamasutra.com).

But then, piracy is not new to Android. It dates back to 2012, when 90% of the apps on Android were pirated. That means, only 10% were paid apps in Android even in 2012."

Anything open, like Android, will have high piracy. That can't be disputed. Given Android's Hacking/Rom communities like XDA, i am not sure why you are shocked at my claim as if i pulled it out of thin air.

I don't say stuff just to say it. I was an android fangirl at one time another(a dark dark time lol). I know all the sites and ways and I was not even a power user. I was just smart enough

OK so I've located the article you're referring to. That's a terrible source. It's 8 years old and is from a software development company (OpenXcell) rather than a reputable news source. It makes various statistical claims without providing any source, and on the occasions it does sort of provide a source, it does so in a very poor way (e.g. referring to androidpolice.com instead of linking directly to the specific article, which makes it very hard to locate and verify).

In relation to the piracy statistics about specific mentioned apps (Today Calendar Pro, Towelfight 2, Monument Valley, Gentleman): Evidence that a specific paid app experiences high piracy rates is not evidence that "most" Android users engage in piracy. For people who are averse to paying for apps, I suspect most will just go for an alternative free app from a legitimate source rather than seek to pirate the paid app.

 

[scorpio vega]

OK so I've located the article you're referring to. That's a terrible source. It's 8 years old and is from a software development company (OpenXcell) rather than a reputable news source. It makes various statistical claims without providing any source, and on the occasions it does sort of provide a source, it does so in a very poor way (e.g. referring to androidpolice.com instead of linking directly to the specific article, which makes it very hard to locate and verify).

In relation to the piracy statistics about specific mentioned apps (Today Calendar Pro, Towelfight 2, Monument Valley, Gentleman): Evidence that a specific paid app experiences high piracy rates is not evidence that "most" Android users engage in piracy. For people who are averse to paying for apps, I suspect most will just go for an alternative free app from a legitimate source rather than seek to pirate the paid app.

I know you want to blindly defend android but it really is not necessary.

the article i got that from was 2021. Androidpolice.com is the equivalent of macrumors.com so are you saying that Macrumors is not reputatable. Likely they didn't want to do backlinks (these big sites are huge on SEO and backlinks and giving them or not giving them).

people that are averse to paying for apps, will pirate. That's why they are adverse. Most people dont want an alternative free app. Most people want what they can get go free and android makes it incredibly easy.

As the article states:
Most developers don't fight piracy because it is not worth their time or effort to do so. And because Android's biggest strength is its openness, it is also a negative that enables piracy.

If you dont think out of 3 billion Android users, that piracy is a big issue, then please give me whatever you are taking because i would love to have my head in the clouds or head in the sand.

Piracy is an issue on Android. You can literally go to reddit and see posts from THIS month about how to pirate X app or Z app. 1.4 million for a group dedicated solely to piracy. And that's just the registered members.

Anything else?

 

[ozaz]

the article i got that from was 2021. Androidpolice.com is the equivalent of macrumors.com so are you saying that Macrumors is not reputatable. Likely they didn't want to do backlinks (these big sites are huge on SEO and backlinks and giving them or not giving them).

Why not link to the 2021 article you're referring to in order to make things easier for us all? I did a web search for the text you included in your previous post and there were verbatim matches to this 2015 article from openxcell. If its also in a 2021 article without attribution, that indicates plagiarism which on its own would indicate an extremely poor news source. If something originated from androidpolice I would be more accepting of it, but you havn't provided a link to an androidpolice article claiming that most Android users engage in piracy.

As the article states:
Most developers don't fight piracy because it is not worth their time or effort to do so. And because Android's biggest strength is its openness, it is also a negative that enables piracy.

This new text is not from the same article I linked to, although I'm unable to locate the source of this text via a google search.

Piracy is an issue on Android.

No one is claiming piracy is not an issue. We're wanting you to backup your claim that "most" Android users engage in piracy. The two things are not the same.

 

[scorpio vega]

Why not link to the 2021 article you're referring to in order to make things easier for us all? I did a web search for the text you included in your previous post and there were verbatim matches to this 2015 article from openxcell. If its also in a 2021 article, that suggests plagiarism.

I feel like I am literally repeating myself and it is annoying. AS i said before, I have not posted the link because the link in fact links directly to a site that is actually warez.
Whether it is plagiarism or not, it's irrelevant to me.

Whether it is 2015 or 2023 or somehow from the future in 2050, do you really think ANYTHING has changed aside from more apps and more easer access to pirate?

No.

No one is claiming piracy is not an issue. We're wanting you to backup your claim that "most" Android users engage in piracy. The two things are not the same.

You seem very defensive over me using the term Most. if you aren't a part of Most, why so passionate about something that doesn't pertain to you.

Again, as stated before, you dont need to champion for Android and its users so hard if me referencing piracy does not apply to you.

 

[ozaz]

Whether it is plagiarism or not, it's irrelevant to me.

OK, but if those are the type of sites you're happy to treat as valid sources of information, you shouldn't be surprised if people aren't willing to accept your arguments.

You seem very defensive over me using the term Most. if you aren't a part of Most, why so passionate about something that doesn't pertain to you.

I'm not being defensive, I'm interested in the claim. If there is evidence that "most" Android users engage in piracy I'd be interested to read it as my suspicion is very different. But you haven't provided that evidence. I'm also not interested in "championing" Android.

 

[VulchR]

Dear Google,

I admire your support for open ecosystems as judged by your stance in the EU. Please explain, then, why today I received an e-mail to the effect that my Fitbit account must be transferred to a Google account by 2025 or I lose all my data? We can't I use 'Log in with Apple' to stay anonymous and save my data offline anywhere I want, like iCloud or my own computer? Open ecosystems indeed.

-Sincerely,
I'll-be-d@mned-if-I-am-going-to-tell-you-my-name

 

[Technerd108]

I know you want to blindly defend android but it really is not necessary.

the article i got that from was 2021. Androidpolice.com is the equivalent of macrumors.com so are you saying that Macrumors is not reputatable. Likely they didn't want to do backlinks (these big sites are huge on SEO and backlinks and giving them or not giving them).

people that are averse to paying for apps, will pirate. That's why they are adverse. Most people dont want an alternative free app. Most people want what they can get go free and android makes it incredibly easy.

As the article states:
Most developers don't fight piracy because it is not worth their time or effort to do so. And because Android's biggest strength is its openness, it is also a negative that enables piracy.

If you dont think out of 3 billion Android users, that piracy is a big issue, then please give me whatever you are taking because i would love to have my head in the clouds or head in the sand.

Piracy is an issue on Android. You can literally go to reddit and see posts from THIS month about how to pirate X app or Z app. 1.4 million for a group dedicated solely to piracy. And that's just the registered members.

Anything else?

Who cares. Piracy is a big issue with all software. Any software that costs money is pirated. More so in certain regions of the world.

To say that Android suffers from piracy has what to do with Apple opening up iMessage? You know as it is right now if you text any Android user your security is compromised. This is far more important than software piracy.

And actually truly open source software is never pirated because it is free.

 

[scorpio vega]

And actually truly open source software is never pirated because it is free.

Except Android apps are not open source. GOod try though.

Who cares. Piracy is a big issue with all software

So because it's an issue, we shouldn't care. Got it.

Murder, theft and other crimes are an issue. Guess we shouldnt care about that either. Extreme yes, but going off of your "logic" who cares.

o say that Android suffers from piracy has what to do with Apple opening up iMessage?

We werent talking about iMessage. Keep up. We were talking about sideloading.
I know the arguments have been confusing since Android users want IOS to be ANdroid like lmao.

 

[Abazigal]

Who cares. Piracy is a big issue with all software. Any software that costs money is pirated. More so in certain regions of the world.

It's an issue that Apple has managed to curb with the App Store, because it's so difficult to pirate apps.

People like to criticise the iOS App Store for being closed, but nobody seems to want to acknowledge the benefits it has brought to developers in terms of growing the overall pie, and the subsequent benefits to the end user. When it's harder to pirate apps, more people will end up actually paying for them, resulting in more money for developers. This in turn incentivises them to continue developing apps for the App Store, which I believe is a key reason as to why there are still quite a number of apps exclusive to iOS (which is one reason I don't see myself switching to Android; the quality of the user experience would plummet without access to the apps I have come to rely on).

Another thing - people like to compare windows and macOS to iOS, but you know what's one thing I don't miss from my Windows days? Viruses and malware.

Maybe the moral to this is that some things just cannot be too open and free.

 

[Johns12]

I feel like I am literally repeating myself and it is annoying. AS i said before, I have not posted the link because the link in fact links directly to a site that is actually warez.
Whether it is plagiarism or not, it's irrelevant to me.

Whether it is 2015 or 2023 or somehow from the future in 2050, do you really think ANYTHING has changed aside from more apps and more easer access to pirate?

No.

You seem very defensive over me using the term Most. if you aren't a part of Most, why so passionate about something that doesn't pertain to you.

Again, as stated before, you dont need to champion for Android and its users so hard if me referencing piracy does not apply to you.

When you use the word "most" in any context, be ready for push back. There are very few times that most is correct.

 

[Technerd108]

Except Android apps are not open source. GOod try though.

So because it's an issue, we shouldn't care. Got it.

Murder, theft and other crimes are an issue. Guess we shouldnt care about that either. Extreme yes, but going off of your "logic" who cares.

We werent talking about iMessage. Keep up. We were talking about sideloading.
I know the arguments have been confusing since Android users want IOS to be ANdroid like lmao.

I can't keep up.....

Side loading apps on Android is a fringe use case. Very few people are using side loaded pirated apps to avoid paying $3 for an app or some monthly charge.

If they are willing to take such a risk then they are the type that are probably not going to pay for software no matter the platform.

You act like only on Android do you have pirated apps but as I said it is rampant on other platforms too. I am not justifying it but talking about reality.

Exactly, not all Android apps are open source but some are. The ones that aren't use a modified licence so they can charge. If they were truly open source as you are saying is the problem then there would be no pirating because all the apps would be free. It is not the open source nature of Android that causes apps to be pirated but the opposite.

From what I can tell you seem to have a very old view of multiple operating systems. You seem to think Android is in the early 2000's? Apple has literally been copying features from Android for several years now. Side loading is one of those things I think are good in a pinch. So if Apple adopts it I think it is a good thing. But iOS can still verify signed software just like Android does. Pirating is a problem and having multiple stores for Android software is a problem and Google isn't the best at rooting out bad software all the time. But someone can jailbreak an iPhone and install paid software for free so I just don't see why it is different on Android and if you say because there is a higher number there is also a considerably higher worldwide user base.

You have a very condescending tone. I don't know why you feel like it is okay to talk to people the way you do but it is offensive.

 

[Technerd108]

It's an issue that Apple has managed to curb with the App Store, because it's so difficult to pirate apps.

People like to criticise the iOS App Store for being closed, but nobody seems to want to acknowledge the benefits it has brought to developers in terms of growing the overall pie, and the subsequent benefits to the end user. When it's harder to pirate apps, more people will end up actually paying for them, resulting in more money for developers. This in turn incentivises them to continue developing apps for the App Store, which I believe is a key reason as to why there are still quite a number of apps exclusive to iOS (which is one reason I don't see myself switching to Android; the quality of the user experience would plummet without access to the apps I have come to rely on).

Another thing - people like to compare windows and macOS to iOS, but you know what's one thing I don't miss from my Windows days? Viruses and malware.

Maybe the moral to this is that some things just cannot be too open and free.

I think you have it the other way around.

When software is open source it is free. No one needs to pirate free software. So if you are truly using mostly open source software like a Linux distribution. No one is pirating Ubuntu or Open Office?

So open source software by nature eliminates things like Piracy not encourages it. Security is generally better in open source software like Ubuntu because it is verified and audited by a lot of different groups.

The real problem arises when you create a hybrid open source and for profit software. However, in order for Google to be able to get any company to use Android they had to modify the open source licence so they could make a profit and copyright software. Apple is different since they are doing everything. I think Apple's approach is better because it gives them more control to make a better product and protect their IP.

I also agree that pirating leads to a negative feedback loop in terms of the quality of software. The less pirating of all software the better. I really think that developers deserve to get paid for their work. I like the model of open source even better as people donate their time but in reality that doesn't always make a recipe for good software.

But how does open source software survive in a capitalist system? I think Google has shown what an incredible success open source software can be when it has very well paid developers and companies profiting off of making devices. You don't see this kind of success in Linux desktop market for example. Fully open source is just not competitive unless it has some other source of backing like government grants, businesses donating, etc.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with how Apple has it's app store in terms of being closed. I would like to see Apple open up some iOS apps to Android but that will be a cold day in hell before that happens. I don't think side loading is really something that should be allowed on any platform for a lot of reasons. On Mac OS or Windows I want complete control over what I can and can't install but in a mobile device I think security and being able to trust the source of the app and the app itself is extremely important. So I am generally not a huge fan of side loading on Android.

 

[scorpio vega]

Side loading apps on Android is a fringe use case. Very few people are using side loaded pirated apps to avoid paying $3 for an app or some monthly charge.

No, it's not a fringe use case when you literally have websites dedicated to the sideloading, romming, etc in the millions of registered users.that does not even take in account the amount of unregistered users of these sites.

Fringe use case would beeper. That's a niche fringe use case (that is dying out thankfully slowly. Good on Apple for that).

You act like only on Android do you have pirated apps but as I said it is rampant on other platforms too. I am not justifying it but talking about reality.

I never said Android is the only platform. But we are talking about Android and not other platforms, so those are irrelevant to this conversation.

It is not the open source nature of Android that causes apps to be pirated but the opposite.

It's exactly the open source nature of Android that enables and makes it easy for apps AND software to be installed. It's openness is literally the selling point of Android and how you can modify it as you see fit.

Apple has literally been copying features from Android for several years now.

And android has not copied features from Apple? Or from Windows Phone? Or from WebOs?
LOL....plz dont act as if Android is the originator of all its ideas. Even I acknowledge Apple does this as well. Android copies just like anyone else and it's usually a poor attempt.

Pirating is a problem and having multiple stores for Android software is a problem and Google isn't the best at rooting out bad software all the time. But someone can jailbreak an iPhone and install paid software for free so I just don't see why it is different on Android and if you say because there is a higher number there is also a considerably higher worldwide user base.

So you literally try to make excuses by saying it's a fringe case (it's not) and downplay piracy now you within the same post acknowledge multiple stores and google's lax nature of handling this IS a problem.

please choose a stance and stick with it. you are confusing me.

Also, comparing Jailbreak (which is all but dead. on lifesupport) to the overall out of box of simply tweaking a setting in Android and installing an APK is not the same.

You have a very condescending tone. I don't know why you feel like it is okay to talk to people the way you do but it is offensive.

Sorry you take it as such to feel that way.

 

[scorpio vega]

When you use the word "most" in any context, be ready for push back. There are very few times that most is correct.

Except i am not incorrect here. I can't help it if another person feels offended by the superlative term I used.

 

[wbeasley]

Don't capitulate to the propaganda of capitalistic monoliths.

Pretty much every major underlying piece of tech in your phone, from 5G to Bluetooth to ARM came out of heavily-regulated Europe.

We had continent-wide contactless payments from hundreds of banks when the USA was still signing cheques and your carrier worked across borders without issue or roaming. We built the greatest terrestrial human engineering project of the 20th Century with government help and, until the fleet got grounded had supersonic passenger planes that never took off in the USA because the FAA banned them in case they disturbed people on the ground.

Heck, the universal 20th Century technologies of SCART and GSM were only possible because of government regulation and not in spite of it.

On topic though, all those companies have one thing in common: they all use Android as their back-end which makes having an open market a lot easier.

i remember those truly awful SCART plugs. awful.

 

[Ctrlos]

i remember those truly awful SCART plugs. awful.

Compared to what? At the time they gave your PlayStation a much sharper picture than the Bundled RF box did.

 

[junkw]

Google, the company blacklisting 99% of right-wing sites from their search results want "open" ecosystems.

Google wants open stuff?
EU should first force Google to open their search engine to right-wing websites

 

[Ctrlos]

Google, the company blacklisting 99% of right-wing sites from their search results want "open" ecosystems.

Google wants open stuff?
EU should first force Google to open their search engine to right-wing websites

Perhaps if 99% of right wing websites weren't all promoting conspiracy theories, culture war nonsense, division and racism they actually might.

It's a shame that there isn't any political party in the west promoting actual right wing politics. The Republicans in the USA and the Tories in the UK are both united in trying to control and interfere in people's lives as much as possible (anti-abortion, militant evangelism, control of the media narrative etc) when in the past they would have been the parties of minding their own business.

Under them both national debt soared to new heights but didn't make it down to the public. Modern RW politics is all about pushing the state to the brink by starving it of funds, borrowing as much as possible and then using it to line the back pockets of their mates. Nepotism as it's finest.

I'm not going to say the left are any better (they've gone too far left) but credit where credit is due.

 

[junkw]

Perhaps if 99% of right wing websites weren't all promoting conspiracy theories, culture war nonsense, division and racism they actually might.

It's a shame that there isn't any political party in the west promoting actual right wing politics. The Republicans in the USA and the Tories in the UK are both united in trying to control and interfere in people's lives as much as possible (anti-abortion, militant evangelism, control of the media narrative etc) when in the past they would have been the parties of minding their own business.

Under them both national debt soared to new heights but didn't make it down to the public. Modern RW politics is all about pushing the state to the brink by starving it of funds, borrowing as much as possible and then using it to line the back pockets of their mates. Nepotism as it's finest.

I'm not going to say the left are any better (they've gone too far left) but credit where credit is due.

Not sure this anti-right hate speech is appropriate in a diverse society

 

[Technerd108]

Not sure this anti-right hate speech is appropriate in a diverse society

If we are going to get philosophical then it really depends on what society we want? Harmonious and uniform or Free and wild?

If we want to live in a truly free society then we can't have gatekeeper's of what is supposedly okay to say or think. We must tolerate all points of view unless they are hate speech, racism, discrimination, sexism, etc. What we should Never do in a free society is censor political opponents. No matter what you think of Trump, censoring a US president on social media was a violation of free speech. Yes, they are private companies but they act as a digital public square and as such should be subject to free speech laws. What I find so ironic is that people who want to ban Trump never think about what happens when the right can do the same thing?

Freedom means that we tolerate all points of view, even extreme ones.

The problem we have now is the breakdown of the American dream for Americans and lower standard of living for people across the world. So extreme points of view make sense when you feel shut out of the system. When the economy is good and most of the population has a decent standard of living extremism is mostly ignored.

So the real question we should be asking these politicians around the world is what are you going to do to raise my standard of living and wealth. I don't care about cultural politics because it is nothing but an endless distraction of issues that at the end of the day just aren't that important. But politicians love culture wars and act like they have some moral high ground.

In America we desperately need a centralist politician who serves the needs of the people instead of corporations. Instead all we get is extremists on either side who don't care what damage their divisive rhetoric causes as long as it gets them votes.

 

[VulchR]

i remember those truly awful SCART plugs. awful.

But mechanically robust and with very little signal degradation.

 

[BaldiMac]

If we are going to get philosophical then it really depends on what society we want? Harmonious and uniform or Free and wild?

Black and white thinking is hardly ever the answer. As usual, the solution is finding a balance between harmony and freedom.

If we want to live in a truly free society then we can't have gatekeeper's of what is supposedly okay to say or think. We must tolerate all points of view unless they are hate speech, racism, discrimination, sexism, etc. What we should Never do in a free society is censor political opponents. No matter what you think of Trump, censoring a US president on social media was a violation of free speech. Yes, they are private companies but they act as a digital public square and as such should be subject to free speech laws. What I find so ironic is that people who want to ban Trump never think about what happens when the right can do the same thing?

Freedom means that we tolerate all points of view, even extreme ones.

That's, of course, not what free speech is. Moderation is speech. Perhaps the most important part. Without a filter, speech is just random words shouted into the void. Freedom doesn't require tolerating or promoting fraud, misinformation, propaganda and calls for violence.

A truly free society isn't real, because my rights will always conflict with the rights of others. Instead it's too often used as an excuse for the worst of human behaviors.

 

[JimmyHook]

I'm not angry, I've been mildly annoyed, but mostly content. And no, I didn't buy my phone based on assumptions. I had assumptions when I bought my phone, but they weren't the reason I bought it.


They don't have to say it, but it is based on its functions. I would have no problems if it didn't have an App Store, but when Apple decided to make it possible for users to extend the functionality it became a general purpose computing device.


Sure, when car manufacturers feel it's acceptable to put software-locked hardware in a car I own I'm allowed to unlock it, it's my hardware. My Apple Watch is arguably also a general purpose computing device, so yes. My washing machine isn't smart, but yeah I'll modify it if I damn well please.


But it is illegal to act monopolistically, and honestly, a duopoly is barely better. Apple taking money from e.g. music services while also being a music service themselves is a problem. The same goes for Google. That's the reason these laws are being written.

Why on earth do you think it’s ok to force a company to change their products? That makes zero sense. If you don’t like how an iPhone operates, don’t buy it. Why is that so complicated? Get a phone you can mess around with on that level, there are tons of options. It’s petty and ridiculous to try and enforce your personal standards on others. I want my phone locked down. I want a closed ecosystem. Why do you think you have the right to deprive me of that?

 

[JimmyHook]

Again, putting all the trust in the consumer is about the worst thing you can do. If there was slave labor involved in making the product, but the product is widely available, plenty of consumers will still buy the product. The number of people who do their research and decide not to will be small because most people aren't thinking in those terms with every product they buy – they're just trying to live their lives in a way that's convenient for them.

In order to abolish the slave labor, government regulation will be absolutely necessary.

If a consumer makes a free will choice to buy something, then that’s on them. You look at government like some kind of savior, when they are not. They are beholden to special interests and greed just as much as anyone. Do you think the EU is enforcing those rules to help consumers? lol!!!! I have a bridge to sell you if you actually think that. No. The EU is doing this to prop up their domestic markets against US competition. That’s it. Quite frankly, the US should retaliate if they do. The US government should regulate the crap out of Spotify and any company that uses governments as a thug to help them compete

 

[redheeler]

If a consumer makes a free will choice to buy something, then that’s on them. You look at government like some kind of savior, when they are not. They are beholden to special interests and greed just as much as anyone. Do you think the EU is enforcing those rules to help consumers? lol!!!! I have a bridge to sell you if you actually think that. No. The EU is doing this to prop up their domestic markets against US competition. That’s it. Quite frankly, the US should retaliate if they do. The US government should regulate the crap out of Spotify and any company that uses governments as a thug to help them compete

"They are beholden to special interests and greed just as much as anyone." So why is letting a corporation control people's lives any better than letting a government control people's lives? A corporation is just another form of government even if they've brainwashed you into thinking otherwise. And like any form of government, they need rules and ethics to come from somewhere. Usually that will be somewhere outside, with the power to actually enforce those rules and ethics – e.g. Russia can't start nuclear war because the USA has the power to enact consequences. It’s not a perfect solution but it seems to have worked so far.