Apple Silicon is Overpriced and over valued in technology market

[maflynn]

I've always argued that Macbooks weren't overpriced, even the Intel Macbook Pros.

Apple fans (in general and no one person in mind): There's no such thing as an apple tax.
Apple: 1,000 dollars for a monitor stand. Mac Pro with wheels - upcharge of 400 dollars. 32GB of ram - 400 dollars

An old comparison, but back in the day, I bought a thinkpad X1e for about 1,800 (maybe 2,000 I forget the exact price) and at the time, an intel Mac with the same specs would have been mid-3k range. I'm talking 4k screen, 16GB of ram, 1TB of storage, better GPU, and faster processor.

Its funny but the only people saying that there's no apple tax are the most strident supporters of apple who defend apple to the bitter end. Most people I know agree, that apple while making great products is generally more expensive then its competition.

 

[unrigestered]

when i bought my 1300 € Sony VAIO in 2010 it was better specced in pretty much every single area than a Macbook Pro for 2500 €.
The Mac only had a metal case vs plastic, and a larger battery capacity going for it.

these times are gone now since most PC manufacturers have adjusted to Apple's prices, but are actually offering slightly worse laptop experiences for the same, or sometimes even more money than a comparable Apple product.
if you're planning to use them plugged in most of the time, they might be faster (and louder). but then you could also have gotten a true desktop PC with much better bang for your buck, and much better performance too because of the much better thermals inside those much larger boxes.

 

[playtech1]

Apple definitely overcharge for all upgrades and for some of their products, but they are aided and abetted by the total lack of competition.

Pre Apple Silicon I went hunting for a high quality MacBook Pro equivalent that I could do a little work and gaming on and settled on Razer, but I found the quality was terrible, it was loud and hot, minimal battery life, with a hefty power brick that seemed to be made of lead. I tried hard: three models were found wanting.

But the alternatives weren't much better. Dell XPS seems the best, but has its flaws. HP has great offerings at the cheaper end of the market, but nothing really that touches the build quality and specs of the MacBook Pro IMHO. Then you get into the gamer styled Taiwanese brands, that are a bit flimsy and not hugely well supported.

Even if the manufacturers got their act together (and Dell gets close), they are stuck with Windows, which just isn't as good on laptops as Mac OS, as well as Intel and AMD chips that still get hotter than you would like.

All that for prices that weren't particularly more attractive than Apple's (until you go BTO...).

Apple managed to make the best Intel laptops and with Apple Silicon I think it makes the best laptops full stop. We need an AMD equivalent to Intel to keep Apple honest, but I don't see it happening soon.

 

[maflynn]

these times are gone now since most PC manufacturers have adjusted to Apple's prices, but are actually offering slightly worse laptop experiences for the same

Not really,
I just went to dell.com and their 15" XPS line. Now some may nitpick some of the components, like 3050 Ti vs. Apple's GPU and personally I have no idea which one is better but overall the XPS 15 is Apple's direct competitor to the 16 MBP and its nearly a 1,000 dollars cheaper then the base MBP upgraded to 32GB and 1TB of storage.

 

[unrigestered]

those specs are really good, but the CPU is last year's model.

i'm not 100% sure anymore, but when that CPU was still current, i thought that that price was pretty much similar to that of a MBP

 

[maflynn]

those specs are really good, but the CPU is last year's model.

You stated that time has passed for less expensive laptops because others have jumped on board the high price train. I disagreed and provided evidence for such. BTW, the CPU in the XPS still holds up, and I'd say for 90% of people's usage for a laptop, 11th gen is more then enough power, as is the M1.

You can easily get an equivalent or near equivalent of a MBP for much less

 

[bobcomer]

You stated that time has passed for less expensive laptops because others have jumped on board the high price train. I disagreed and provided evidence for such. BTW, the CPU in the XPS still holds up, and I'd say for 90% of people's usage for a laptop, 11th gen is more then enough power, as is the M1.

You can easily get an equivalent or near equivalent of a MBP for much less

I have a XPS 15 at home, gorgeous screen (OLED), decent speed, even though it's a couple years old, well spec'd. Heavier than I normally like for a laptop, but not heavier than a MBP...

 

[NT1440]

I've always argued that Macbooks weren't overpriced, even the Intel Macbook Pros. Once you configure anything that has a screen that matches Apple quality and resolution, you usually end up with a Windows laptop that is the same price or more expensive.

Not to mention with Apple, you know the build quality, and the little details such as speakers will be top notch.

I was working last night and it struck me, I have a Lenovo x13, 1TB hard drive, 32 GB of RAM (soldered), and a Ryzen 7. It’s awesome for me.

I was running my 2015 MBP for updates and I suddenly realized, my 7+ year old MacBook Pro has a better screen.

I don’t think my X13 screen is bad, but it’s a brand new machine and it’s the 1600 hundred vertical pixels version.

Just made me chuckle a bit.

 

[unrigestered]

You stated that time has passed for less expensive laptops because others have jumped on board the high price train. I disagreed and provided evidence for such. BTW, the CPU in the XPS still holds up, and I'd say for 90% of people's usage for a laptop, 11th gen is more then enough power, as is the M1.

You can easily get an equivalent or near equivalent of a MBP for much less

yes, you can, but still... i'm pretty positive that the XPS15 has been pretty much on par with a 16" MBP when it was new, as i'm not totally uninterested in getting a more current Windows machine than my i7 dual core laptop from 2010.
the difference is: most of the other manufacturers do big discounts over the time, while Apple usually doesn't.
Though i have seen my base 1TB/16GB 16" M1 MBP that retailed at €3000 here in Europe going for 2300€ for a brief time on Amazon.

of course a 12th gen Intel is still more than what most people need, so they can save a lot of money, but then again, a base M1 MBA is also more than what most people need too.
in fact, most would come by superbly with an iPhone 11 or something similar with just some bigger screen for the foreseeable future.
we could discuss this again when Dell has upgraded the XPS15 to 13th gen CPUs.
the Inspirons strangely already are, and in fact are great machines i'd consider, but they don't have "state of the art" memory architectures, SSD speeds, etc that might not be that important to most, but companies are charging premium for... not just Apple.

 

[maflynn]

we could discuss this again when Dell has upgraded the XPS15 to 13th gen CPUs.

Why? You tried to make the point that PC makers are charging a premium just like Apple and for many manufacturers that not the case.

I stand by my assessment that there is an Apple Tax, consumers pay a higher price for a Mac then a comparable PC. I also stand by my opinion that many apple fans try to dispute, minimize, and marginalize the idea that there's an apple tax, hence the pushback in this thread.

I'm not down on Apple and given that worth is in the eye of the beholder, many of us, including myself think that many apple products are worth the price. Not the 1,000 monitor stand or 400 dollar wheels but most other products.

 

[unrigestered]

Why? You tried to make the point that PC makers are charging a premium just like Apple and for many manufacturers that not the case.

we seem to be on a different page then: as in my opinion, the XPS (and quite a few other "premium" devices from other manufacturers) are pretty much comparable price wise when they are new, or at least "current" with no direct successor already lurking around the corner, or already on the market.

I stand by my assessment that there is an Apple Tax, consumers pay a higher price for a Mac then a comparable PC. I also stand by my opinion that many apple fans try to dispute, minimize, and marginalize the idea that there's an apple tax, hence the pushback in this thread

I'm not down on Apple and given that worth is in the eye of the beholder, many of us, including myself think that many apple products are worth the price. Not the 1,000 monitor stand or 400 dollar wheels but most other products.

of course there's the Apple tax. no one in their right mind would deny that.
it's just that many other developers happily hopped on that train too.
the only thing the others are doing better on their premium line products opposed to Apple is they aren't asking completely bonkers prices for RAM and storage upgrades and you need to hope that Apple has set up a "base" non BTO model that's designed to be relatively competitive in price compared to the rest of the market.
most of the options are more or less complete rip offs the further you go up in optional specs.
Oh and of course the others are going down in price over time, which of course is another bonus.

 

[IconDRT]

There’s no such thing as an “Apple Tax” give me a break. It’s more like an HOA Fee to keep society’s detritus out of Tim Apple’s beautifully manicured walled garden.

 

[senttoschool]

I stand by my assessment that there is an Apple Tax, consumers pay a higher price for a Mac then a comparable PC. I also stand by my opinion that many apple fans try to dispute, minimize, and marginalize the idea that there's an apple tax, hence the pushback in this thread.

You're so confident!

Back in 2019, I was using a 2015 MBP and I was desperate for a new laptop. I hated the touch bar. Couldn't stand it. So I didn't buy the 16" MBP at the time.

I went Windows shopping.

My requirements were:

• 15.5 - 16.5" high-resolution screen, high color accuracy, high brightness
• Maximum battery allowed in an airplane (100whr)
• Great touchpad
• Not super thick, should have a sleek design
• Great all around build quality so I know it wouldn't fall apart after 1 year
• Reputable vendor with a long history of good support

Guess what?

Everything I configured came out to be around $2500 - $3000. The price of an Intel 16" MBP at the time.

So for me, there was no Apple tax.

I don't doubt that there is an Apple tax for some of their things. Apple makes a lot of stuff. But for the Macbook Pro line up? I never saw a tax. Just value.

I ended up replacing my 2015" MBP with an M1 Air the following year because I couldn't find the value in Windows world.

 

[maflynn]

they are new, or at least "current" with no direct successor already lurking around the corner, or already on the market.

Here's another laptop, and again the price is less then what Apple charges.

You're so confident!

Of course, because I can easily find a name brand laptop for less then what apple charges with similar configurations ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do you want to spend 2,750 for the Legion 7i or 3,500 for a 16" M2 Max MBP?

The new Legion 7i from Lenovo - a 13th Gen Intel i9 13900HX (24 core, 32 thread process) with a 4080 GPU, 32GB of ram and 1TB of storage.

The M2 MBP with 12 cpu cores, 38 gpu cores, 32GB of ram and 1TB of storage runs 3,500 dollars.

The early benchmarks that I've seen show the RTX 4080 being faster so that's why I chose the highest tier 16" MBP

btw, I'd consider Lenovo a major player in the PC world with very good customer service and a reputation of having high quality.

 

[maflynn]

One point I want to clarify. There are certainly laptops out there that can easily exceed the cost of a MBP, but by and large many major name brands have comparable models that are below the cost of a MBP, even if they offer a model that exceeds the price of a MBP. Asus ProArt for instance that can easily exceed the MBP, but Asus offers a number of other lines that fall well below the price of a MBP all the while using fast processors, GPUS and what not.

My point is basically saying that by and large PCs tend to be less expensive, and the apple products tend to have premium pricing.

@senttoschool, You can disagree, and that's fine but overall I think the perception of Apple being pricier then PCs is a notion held by the majority of everyone, other then Apple fans. I only see people trying to refute the expensiveness of a Macs here and other apple fan sites. Everyone else just nods their heads and agrees.

 

[thenewperson]

Everyone else just nods their heads and agrees

Damn, talk about sheep.

 

[NY Guitarist]

Years ago during a MAC vs PC debate a co-worker called Apple a 'luxury brand'.

Maybe so, but I have some Apple products that have long outlived their PC counterparts, and IMO the MacOS interface is far ahead of Windows.

Mercedes vs Hyundai. Both will get you there, but which would you rather drive?

 

[Orizence]

Years ago during a MAC vs PC debate a co-worker called Apple a 'luxury brand'.

Maybe so, but I have some Apple products that have long outlived their PC counterparts, and IMO the MacOS interface is far ahead of Windows.

Mercedes vs Hyundai. Both will get you there, but which would you rather drive?

The Hyundai

 

[sam_dean]

The Hyundai

Lexus or Subaru

 

[sam_dean]

Years ago during a MAC vs PC debate a co-worker called Apple a 'luxury brand'.

Maybe so, but I have some Apple products that have long outlived their PC counterparts, and IMO the MacOS interface is far ahead of Windows.

Mercedes vs Hyundai. Both will get you there, but which would you rather drive?

I think everyone should remember that our use case does not represent the whole fields'.

As such they want to drive a Merc or a HyunDIE. then I prefer a Lexus, Subaru or even a Honda.

 

[Orizence]

Lexus or Subaru

2005 Toyota Echo 3-door 5 speed. But still I owned a Hyundai and worked at a Mercedes dealer... I wouldn't buy a Mercedes. Its not even a fair comparison to Apple

 

[jdb8167]

Here's another laptop, and again the price is less then what Apple charges.



Of course, because I can easily find a name brand laptop for less then what apple charges with similar configurations ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do you want to spend 2,750 for the Legion 7i or 3,500 for a 16" M2 Max MBP?

The new Legion 7i from Lenovo - a 13th Gen Intel i9 13900HX (24 core, 32 thread process) with a 4080 GPU, 32GB of ram and 1TB of storage.

The M2 MBP with 12 cpu cores, 38 gpu cores, 32GB of ram and 1TB of storage runs 3,500 dollars.

The early benchmarks that I've seen show the RTX 4080 being faster so that's why I chose the highest tier 16" MBP

btw, I'd consider Lenovo a major player in the PC world with very good customer service and a reputation of having high quality.

View attachment 2156463

I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't consider that laptop to be in the same class as the 16" M2 Pro/Max MacBook Pro.

First is the size and weight. The 16" MBP is 0.66" (1.68 cm) and weighs 4.8 lbs (2.16 kg). The Lenovo is over 1" (2.59 cm) thick at its thickest end. It weighs 6.17 lbs (2.8 kg). Those are not comparable specs.

The other oddity is the ports. It has a bunch of USB-C 3.2 Gen 1 and 2. Also several USB-A 3.2 Gen 1. But it has no Thunderbolt/USB4 ports at all. Again, not comparable specs.

The screen is 500 nits and appears to be just a normal IPS panel with 240 Hz and with good color accuracy. But I don't think anyone would compare that to the 16" XDR with local dimming to be equivalent.

Finally, the included 330 W AC power adapter will give a pretty good hint at what you can expect when the laptop is running at full speed. It certainly won't do that on battery alone. The 12 hour battery life is just not going to be true.

• Up to 12 hours (target)

What does target mean?

If you want a windows gaming machine that one looks like it will fit the bill but as a laptop for content creators and other professional uses, I don't think they are equivalent at all.

 

[sam_dean]

2005 Toyota Echo 3-door 5 speed. But still I owned a Hyundai and worked at a Mercedes dealer... I wouldn't buy a Mercedes. Its not even a fair comparison to Apple

Last Merc I had was a 2001 C200 Kompressor. I believe this was the 1st gen under DaimlerChrysler so the quality was sh_it. Break downs and excuses every so often.

Traded it in for a 2003 Mitsubishi Evolution 8... most fun car! Then followed a 2008 Subaru WRX and a 2013 Subaru BRZ.

Going back I'd stick with Lexus and Subaru. The less time I spend at the service center the better.

 

[NY Guitarist]

I think everyone should remember that our use case does not represent the whole fields'.

As such they want to drive a Merc or a HyunDIE. then I prefer a Lexus, Subaru or even a Honda.

I guess my analogy is flawed as I have a newer Acura, an older Audi, and a Camry that's in between the two.

The Acura is the TSX sport version that's fast and fun, the Audi has a convertible top, but the Camry wins hands down as most reliable with coldest A/C and the best heat.

Edit: My 2022 Mac Studio Ultra is fastest, the 2022 16" MBP's top goes up/down, and the 2010-2012s I have in various configs all put out the most heat!

 

[Rafterman]

Not really,
I just went to dell.com and their 15" XPS line. Now some may nitpick some of the components, like 3050 Ti vs. Apple's GPU and personally I have no idea which one is better but overall the XPS 15 is Apple's direct competitor to the 16 MBP and its nearly a 1,000 dollars cheaper then the base MBP upgraded to 32GB and 1TB of storage.
View attachment 2155860

I have that model and, with a second MVME bay available, I was able to add an 8TB NVME card and upgrade the RAM to 64GB. Final cost, $4,000. A lot cheaper than an equally equipped MacBook Pro with 8TB.