Apple Store Employees in New Jersey File to Unionize

[icanhazmac]

What is a living wage? That depends on what the cost of living is.

Ok, so define that today. Be specific. What should the complete and total compensation package be for the least common denominator position like a burger flipper.

As the cost of living goes up, the cost of a living wage goes up. Since prices on things rarely drop, that is a number that will continue to go up over time.

Especially if you artificially increase wages.

And you say that flipping burgers is “unskilled” labor, a designation I already balk at because “skill” is itself a nebulous concept

You can balk at the designation all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the less skill a job requires the less the labor is worth. Almost anyone can be told "flip the burger before it burns" or "sweep the floor if it is dirty". One does not even need to be able to read for these positions. Not everyone can be told "build that airplane" or "cure that disease" or "run that trillion dollar company".

If I grab 100 random people from the population I would venture to say that 99 of them are qualified to flip burgers. If there are 7 burger flipper positions open one probably doesn't have to pay much, this has nothing to do with greed, its simple supply and demand math. I would also venture to say that perhaps 5 of the 100 people might qualify for an engineering position. If there are 7 engineering positions open one will probably pay through the nose for an engineer. This is a very simple concept.

And most people who do “skilled” labor will not accept “unskilled” labor jobs, even if they are offered to them with good pay

Your damn right! Why would you even suggest that a Doctor would want or accept a position flipping burgers versus being a Doctor? Even if the compensation were identical why would you ever even suggest wasting that education, skill and knowledge? Don't care for the Doctor analogy? How about a seasoned wood worker, a craftsman... why would that person ever want to flip burgers for the same compensation?

So many people act like they are entitled to the goods and services produced by “unskilled” laborers and that if they are in a “skilled” labor position, they are better than workers in “unskilled” positions. It’s sociopathic.

I don't see this at all and I do not feel the "skilled" population feel entitled to anything. I pay for my goods and services, doesn't matter if the goods are a Five Guys burger made by unskilled labor or an engine for car built by someone with years of skilled experience and equipment. I have bought both recently and I didn't treat either person differently, I was very nice to the cashier at Five Guys but there is no way in hell that position is worth $20/hr. This is why cashiers are being replaced by kiosks. Enjoy the $0/hr you earn after being replaced by a kiosk.

 

[iksretep]

Are you always in the habit of calling people names ... jumping to conclusions ... and correcting everything you see because it's not to your liking? 🥴

Yes, I'm replying to myself ... and I'm sure you won't like it ... you don't have to answer this one ... I just noticed your username boss.king ... gotta be your way or no way 🙂

 

[iksretep]

I don't see this at all and I do not feel the "skilled" population feel entitled to anything. I pay for my goods and services, doesn't matter if the goods are a Five Guys burger made by unskilled labor or an engine for car built by someone with years of skilled experience and equipment. I have bought both recently and I didn't treat either person differently, I was very nice to the cashier at Five Guys but there is no way in hell that position is worth $20/hr. This is why cashiers are being replaced by kiosks. Enjoy the $0/hr you earn after being replaced by a kiosk.

this 👆

 

[Supermallet]

Ok, so define that today. Be specific. What should the complete and total compensation package be for the least common denominator position like a burger flipper.



Especially if you artificially increase wages.



You can balk at the designation all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the less skill a job requires the less the labor is worth. Almost anyone can be told "flip the burger before it burns" or "sweep the floor if it is dirty". One does not even need to be able to read for these positions. Not everyone can be told "build that airplane" or "cure that disease" or "run that trillion dollar company".

If I grab 100 random people from the population I would venture to say that 99 of them are qualified to flip burgers. If there are 7 burger flipper positions open one probably doesn't have to pay much, this has nothing to do with greed, its simple supply and demand math. I would also venture to say that perhaps 5 of the 100 people might qualify for an engineering position. If there are 7 engineering positions open one will probably pay through the nose for an engineer. This is a very simple concept.



Your damn right! Why would you even suggest that a Doctor would want or accept a position flipping burgers versus being a Doctor? Even if the compensation were identical why would you ever even suggest wasting that education, skill and knowledge? Don't care for the Doctor analogy? How about a seasoned wood worker, a craftsman... why would that person ever want to flip burgers for the same compensation?



I don't see this at all and I do not feel the "skilled" population feel entitled to anything. I pay for my goods and services, doesn't matter if the goods are a Five Guys burger made by unskilled labor or an engine for car built by someone with years of skilled experience and equipment. I have bought both recently and I didn't treat either person differently, I was very nice to the cashier at Five Guys but there is no way in hell that position is worth $20/hr. This is why cashiers are being replaced by kiosks. Enjoy the $0/hr you earn after being replaced by a kiosk.

Yes, you’re completely cordial to the person who you think shouldn’t get paid more than a pittance as you wag your finger at them for ruining the economy by asking for more money in a country where wages have been stagnant for decades and inflation is on the rise. You’re practically a saint!

 

[edvj]

McDonald’s workers in Denmark make more than $20 an hour and they get six weeks of paid vacation.

Do McDonald's Workers in Denmark Make $22 an Hour?

The fight over a minimum wage is often centered around McDonald's.

www.snopes.com

 

[sw1tcher]

It’s not just about money though but also working conditions. Retail employees get treated horribly by the general public.

There was a time not too long ago (from early 2020 through 2021 / into early 2022) when the general public actually treated certain retail employees very nicely and appreaciated the work they were doing. They were even called "essential."

Now it's back to taking them for granted.

 

[dampfnudel]

I would love to hear one good reason why workers at the most profitable company in the world shouldn’t get paid more.

Tim likes to get a good night’s sleep.😴

 

[iksretep]

Yes, you’re completely cordial to the person who you think shouldn’t get paid more than a pittance as you wag your finger at them for ruining the economy by asking for more money in a country where wages have been stagnant for decades and inflation is on the rise. You’re practically a saint!

If you don’t think that skill should equal reward … then why stop at $20-25? Why not $100? Why not a $1000?
Where do we stop?

What’s right … what’s sensible? Why doesn’t everyone make a $1000/work no matter their job skill while unionizing and telling their bosses to pound sand …

 

[iksretep]

McDonald’s workers in Denmark make more than $20 an hour and they get six weeks of paid vacation.

Do McDonald's Workers in Denmark Make $22 an Hour?

The fight over a minimum wage is often centered around McDonald's.

www.snopes.com

Do they have open positions? Are you advertising or exploring your possibilities?

I mean everyone always points out what happens elsewhere without considering what actually needs to happen to make everyone happy.

 

[boss.king]

No one said you had to be a mind reader, but you're jumping to conclusions ...

I'm literally just listening to the things you've said about yourself. If you don't like the way you come off, say different things?

You express your opinion ... I express one of my own. Not all unions are perfect ... ok ... what is your experience with a union besides jumping on a bandwagon of what you think is "right" and expecting it to be the only possible way?

Yes, we've both expressing opinions, I thought that was obvious. My experience of unions is that they create better working conditions for workers who otherwise wouldn't have the power to advocate for themselves as individuals. I've seen more of my friends in what I guess in this context I'd call lower-power jobs benefit from unions than I've seen the people in higher-power jobs suffer from them. I don't know what my personal experience has to do with this though, as I tend to base my opinions off evidence beyond my own anecdotal experience.

On that note ... who says that one is forced to work at Apple as an entry level position at the salary/benefits/conditions that were set forth when you started your employment? Is one not allowed to quit, look for a more favorable job ... or perhaps try to advance? I don't mean that in a demeaning way, but when you enter a job market and start for the lack of better words "at the bottom" it's nowhere but up yea?

That's an incredibly oversimplified way to look at things. If you ignore things like inflation, cost of living changes, societal changes, etc, then I'm sure that makes sense, but here in the real world things are a little more complicated than that. Just because one starts at the bottom doesn't mean that the bottom should have to be awful.

Are you always in the habit of calling people names ... jumping to conclusions ... and correcting everything you see because it's not to your liking? 🥴

Again, the conclusions are based on what you said. I'm sorry that you don't like how you come off, but I can't change that. Correcting the "..." thing was me sharing a helpful tip. Putting ellipses between all your thoughts makes your writing seem scattered and unfocused, like you don't really know what you're trying to say. But if that's the tone you're going for then I apologise.

Yes, I'm replying to myself ... and I'm sure you won't like it ... you don't have to answer this one ... I just noticed your username boss.king ... gotta be your way or no way 🙂

What an odd comment to make. Do you often judge people's opinions off a username they picked over a decade ago?

 

[boss.king]

If you don’t think that skill should equal reward … then why stop at $20-25? Why not $100? Why not a $1000?
Where do we stop?

What’s right … what’s sensible? Why doesn’t everyone make a $1000/work no matter their job skill while unionizing and telling their bosses to pound sand …

It might blow your mind but people have actually put some thought into that. Here's some reading to get your started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

 

[SoldOnApple]

Makes sense. An Apple Store requires people for it to work, for now anyway.

 

[Supermallet]

If you don’t think that skill should equal reward … then why stop at $20-25? Why not $100? Why not a $1000?
Where do we stop?

What’s right … what’s sensible? Why doesn’t everyone make a $1000/work no matter their job skill while unionizing and telling their bosses to pound sand …

Sounds great, $1,000 an hour for everyone and we get to tell our bosses to pound sand? Heck, I’d pay $1,000 to tell some of my former bosses what I think of them.

 

[iksretep]

I'm literally just listening to the things you've said about yourself. If you don't like the way you come off, say different things?


Yes, we've both expressing opinions, I thought that was obvious. My experience of unions is that they create better working conditions for workers who otherwise wouldn't have the power to advocate for themselves as individuals. I've seen more of my friends in what I guess in this context I'd call lower-power jobs benefit from unions than I've seen the people in higher-power jobs suffer from them. I don't know what my personal experience has to do with this though, as I tend to base my opinions off evidence beyond my own anecdotal experience.


That's an incredibly oversimplified way to look at things. If you ignore things like inflation, cost of living changes, societal changes, etc, then I'm sure that makes sense, but here in the real world things are a little more complicated than that. Just because one starts at the bottom doesn't mean that the bottom should have to be awful.


Again, the conclusions are based on what you said. I'm sorry that you don't like how you come off, but I can't change that. Correcting the "..." thing was me sharing a helpful tip. Putting ellipses between all your thoughts makes your writing seem scattered and unfocused, like you don't really know what you're trying to say. But if that's the tone you're going for then I apologise.


What an odd comment to make. Do you often judge people's opinions off a username they picked over a decade ago?

Yes boss.king, you’re right about everything I’m a scattered … unfocused … mess and in continuous need of your criticism and attention … I’m sure because I’m so scattered … i already forgot the many other things you just said about me

Me judging? Nah, just like you … I made an observation … you seem to be able to dish it just fine, but can’t take it … there is a word for that kind of character.

 

[vicviper789]

Apple store closing in 3...2...

 

[iksretep]

It might blow your mind but people have actually put some thought into that. Here's some reading to get your started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

🤯 … but I’m sure that’s way over my head … I like to work hard and play hard.

It worked for me thus far …

 

[Supermallet]

Here is the description of how things have changed for the retail employees at Apple stores from someone who just recently left Apple (from Reddit):

“I left recently. It’s been a lot of little changes that have really added up over the years that just made for an overall worse workplace.

When I was brought on, the mentality was that we help anyone with an Apple device for as long as it takes and the metrics will come. Now, staff regularly gets coached after interactions about what services and accessories they should have brought up. Sales and techs are hounded about their session times and are encouraged to help multiple people at once whenever possible.

They’ve been adding more and more barriers to getting an elevated, full-time position. Used to be everyone came on as a part-time specialist with benefits and you could then move up to a full-time role in sales, inventory, or repair/Genius Bar or pursue the managmant track. Now, they keep staff to minimal levels and hire large batches of seasonal employees for the fall/holiday season. Those 20-50 temps then get to compete over 1-5 permanent part-time sales roles that open up after the season.

Speaking of staff, I saw them trim our store’s team from 150+ people to ~90 through targeted firings (oh you’ve been late 1 minute too many times, etc) or just not filling roles in after people left. If you’re wondering why it’s always busy even when it’s a slow weekday - that’s part of the reason.

Another reason is they recently decided to discard their queue system for sales. They want one-on-one interactions to be a thing of the past. They’re supposed to hang around areas and just approach whoever they see regardless of wait time.

Genius used to be a fairly lauded role. New Geniuses would get flown down to corporate campus and trained by Apple Engineers and longtime Geniuses for a week or two. Now, there’s an additional role in-between tech specialist and genius that doesn’t pay as well and when you make it to genius, you just do a handful of training modules and tests on a store computer.

The Ops team back in the stock room used to be responsible for receiving stock, stocking the store, and running product. Over the years, they added phone operator responsibilities, started having them ship online store orders from the store, and also had them absorb an entire role responsible for scheduling store events and maintenance.

Oh and my favorite trick is adding the ‘Dwight’ role - basically you can have all the responsibilities of managers but just get paid around a Genius instead of earning a Manager’s rate.

And biggest of all, the pay just didn’t keep up. You could have an extraordinary year and the best you’d get is a 4% raise. Later, you’d find out that your peers that were rated lower got pretty much the same raise too.”

A lot of what they’re describing are removal of services and attitudes that step Apple apart from competitors. Those of you whinging about the ROI on your stock purchase should take note that Apple is removing these differentiators, which is part of what made them so successful, and are now demanding employees provide a lower level of service. That can’t be good for your ROI in the long term.

 

[boss.king]

🤯 … but I’m sure that’s way over my head … I like to work hard and play hard.

It worked for me thus far …

It’s almost like things have gotten harder in the 30-whatever years since you joined the workforce and what worked back when you were starting out doesn’t really apply anymore. Who would have thought that things might change over time?

 

[iksretep]

And biggest of all, the pay just didn’t keep up. You could have an extraordinary year and the best you’d get is a 4% raise. Later, you’d find out that your peers that were rated lower got pretty much the same raise too.”

… my unfocused and scattered brain caught this👆… are we unintentionally bringing up ex-Apple employees being upset about union like/collective raises no matter the performance vs. individual performance and achievements? … nah it’s probably me still recovering from when boss.king blew my mind.

 

[Plutonius]

Any increase in wages will be tacked onto the product cost. Does anyone actually expect that it will come out of Apple's profits ?

The biggest problem with unions is that a good employee is treated the same as a bad employee. Why work hard and put in any effort when it doesn't matter.

 

[iksretep]

It’s almost like things have gotten harder in the 30-whatever years since you joined the workforce and what worked back when you were starting out doesn’t really apply anymore. Who would have thought that things might change over time?

Somehow the same things keep working for me no matter the passage of time … I work hard and seem to benefit from it … the days I sit on my behind and day dream of utopia … well, not so much of a benefit …

 

[Supermallet]

… my unfocused and scattered brain caught this👆… are we unintentionally bringing up ex-Apple employees being upset about union like/collective raises no matter the performance vs. individual performance and achievements? … nah it’s probably me still recovering from when boss.king blew my mind.

There is a huge difference between a collective bargaining agreement, which has to be voted on by the members of the union to be accepted, versus Apple unilaterally deciding to give everyone 4% regardless of personal performance. The former gives employees a say in their careers, and more money overall, and the latter is corporate edict without any chance to change the decisions made in advance by people who do not have the employee’s best interests in mind.

But sure, cherry pick one sentence out of context so you can make a smug dunk instead of actually engaging thoughtfully with what that person is saying. That makes you look real good.

 

[Supermallet]

Any increase in wages will be tacked onto the product cost. Does anyone actually expect that it will come out of Apple's profits ?

The biggest problem with unions is that a good employee is treated the same as a bad employee. Why work hard and put in any effort when it doesn't matter.

Apple raises prices all the time without having to incur the cost of wage increases, so that’s not a particularly good argument. It’s not like Apple is keeping pricing static and unionizing threatens those static prices. People who buy Apple products already accept the Apple tax, this won’t change that.

 

[boss.king]

Somehow the same things keep working for me no matter the passage of time … I work hard and seem to benefit from it … the days I sit on my behind and day dream of utopia … well, not so much of a benefit …

Are you still frequently starting out new careers 30 years on? If so, maybe it’s not going as well as you think. If not, maybe read what I said more closely.

 

[iksretep]

There is a huge difference between a collective bargaining agreement, which has to be voted on by the members of the union to be accepted, verus Apple unilaterally deciding to give everyone 4% regardless of personal performance. The former gives employees a say in their careers, and more money overall, and the latter is corporate edict without any chance to change the decisions made in advance by people who do not have the employee’s best interests in mind.

But sure, cherry pick one sentence out of context so you can make a smug dunk instead of actually engaging thoughtfully with what that person is saying. That makes you look real good.

I’m not cherry picking anything, but as boss.king said above “I’m sorry you don’t like how you come off” … or “that’s on you if you don’t mean what you’re saying” … or in this case I’m sorry you don’t like what you quoted? … that’s on you?