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I guess turning off Flash would be too easy and it would kill the fun of spouting hate in these forums...
Will you be able to turn off Flash if they create a version for the iPhone? Will the flashmenupage apps of today even work correctly on the small form factor?

If Flash is 100% ubiquitous, won't that mean more badly designed flashmenupage home pages on the web?

What is your stake in all this? You are taking this all quite personally? Do you work for Adobe? Or just develop the kind craptacular flashmenupage webpages we all hate?

If you want to be an Adobe/Flash fanboi, why don't you make yourself useful and complain to the likes of John Nack that Flash on the Mac is a complete and total CPU resource hog and see if you can't get them to rewrite that version correctly first, before effing up the iPhone...
 
Hey, one advantage of having flash on the iPhone is we'll be able to make gimpy little flash apps and watch weebles stuff :p

ok i admit it, theyre not really advantages.
 
Have you ever tried actually building something with Flash? It's a royal PITA. Up until AJAX started to eat Adobe/Macromedia's lunch, ActionScript was downright atrocious. It still sucks, but at least they're making a conscious effort to improve it.

Flash is a proprietary technology. There is exactly one fully-functional implementation of it. That implementation sucks on every single platform that's not Windows NT/x86 (where it just sucks less). The first-part implementation is known for being unstable and resource hungry. The content that requires the plugin is nearly invisible to search engines, and is completely inaccessible to disabled users. To top it all off, Flash offers absolutely nothing that modern browsers can't deliver via HTML/CSS/JS. This means that in exchange for using a proprietary, buggy, resource hungry, inaccessible plugin you get to do.... absolutely nothing that you couldn't do with standard, open technologies. Awesome.

That certainly sounds like a bad technology to me. Yes, there was a time when Flash enabled you to do stuff you couldn't otherwise do. Circa 1998 I actually was pleased with Macromedia: their plugin let me do all sorts of stuff that I couldn't do through HTML and Javascript. But times have changed. We have CSS 2, we have AJAX, we have good PNG support in all major browsers, and MPEG-4/H.264 support is widespread -- we have all the things that we previously lacked that made Flash a necessity. There simply isn't a compelling reason to use Flash anymore. Compared to the open, standards-oriented way of doing things, Flash really *is* a "bad technology."

I agree with you on all counts, except one.

MPEG-4/H.264 might be widespread (heck, even Flash supports the codec), but why isn't YouTube, Hulu and all those video sites abandoning Flash if it's bad technology? There must be something in Flash that other media players lack.
 
MPEG-4/H.264 might be widespread (heck, even Flash supports the codec), but why isn't YouTube, Hulu and all those video sites abandoning Flash if it's bad technology? There must be something in Flash that other media players lack.

YouTube's already invested in the platform. They're moving away for it in some areas (delivering plain 'ol MPEG-4/H.264 to non-Flash devices), but at this point they've got their entire site built around the technology, so they can't just drop it overnight. My bet is that they will start moving away from it bit by bit as HTML5 starts being deployed (and supported...)

Hulu... well... to be honest I think they're doing it for security through obscurity. It may be built by RoR-toting geeks, but it's managed by the highly clueless execs over at NBC; it therefore wouldn't come as a surprise to me if they were doing it because they think it prevents people from directly grabbing the video data. (Note to NBC: it doesn't.) It also is easier for them to integrate advertising through their player. If they were doing things the standard way, they'd have to mux the ads into the video feed itself. As it stands, their player just stops playing back the stream for 30 seconds, and instead displays content from a different URL.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of smaller sites use Flash for video because they're just not aware that there's an alternative.
 
I'd be willing to bet that a lot of smaller sites use Flash for video because they're just not aware that there's an alternative.

I use Flash for video because a) the QuickTime plugin freezes the browser for a few seconds on Windows which isn't acceptable, b) it's controllable (I don't have to worry about stuff not playing or old plugins) and c) Flash is unnaturally wide-spread and so allows instant click and play for almost all users.

I'm aware that it's awful for those with visual disabilities (I wouldn't use it for main content without an alternative), but it's extremely good for media playback.

Also: Flash allows for seamless preloading of content and allows data to be saved directly to the desktop, it allows webcam and microphone integration (great for streaming), it allows for dynamic rotation of objects and it can be coded easily to scale all content for any browser dimensions.

I've clearly totally misunderstood something here, but there's a lot web-browsers still can't do :)

P.S. I'm not sure how Flash in Safari will work for things like drag and drop (dragging and dropping in Safari being the method to pan a page)
 
facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif
 
Hulu... well... to be honest I think they're doing it for security through obscurity. It may be built by RoR-toting geeks, but it's managed by the highly clueless execs over at NBC; it therefore wouldn't come as a surprise to me if they were doing it because they think it prevents people from directly grabbing the video data. (Note to NBC: it doesn't.)

It does. It doesn't prevent everyone from grabbing it (though if you use Flash 9 with RTMPe it does make it *very* tricky), but it stops the vast majority of people grabbing it, which is good enough.

Any doorlock can be bypassed by people with sufficient time and skill. But I guarantee when you leave the house you lock your front door rather than agree with burgulars that you should adopt "new ownership models" and let them take all your stuff.

Phazer
 
Flash allows for seamless preloading of content and allows data to be saved directly to the desktop, it allows webcam and microphone integration (great for streaming), it allows for dynamic rotation of objects and it can be coded easily to scale all content for any browser dimensions.

I've clearly totally misunderstood something here, but there's a lot web-browsers still can't do.

Uh...

1) Preloading? Browsers handle HTML/CSS/JS loading in a much saner manner than Flash.

2) "Data to be saved directly to the desktop" What do you mean? How is this different than serving a resource as 'Content-type: application/octet-stream' or offering a download link?

3) Dynamic rotation of objects can be done using JavaScript, as can drag and drop components.

4) Scalable content. Really?! Wow. Flash *sucks* when it comes to scalability. Properly written HTML/CSS/SVG is far more flexible in this regard.

5) Webcam/mic integration -- you've got me there. Of course if you're using a webcam/mic in your web app, I'd argue that you're doing it wrong anyways...
 
It does. It doesn't prevent everyone from grabbing it (though if you use Flash 9 with RTMPe it does make it *very* tricky), but it stops the vast majority of people grabbing it, which is good enough.

I'm going to go ahead and say this: DRM doesn't work. It just doesn't. If the user can play it back using an "approved playback mechanism", someone will make a program that allows users to play it back using an unapproved one. Always. This happens every goram time someone deploys a DRM scheme.

Sigh.
 
Flash is a proprietary technology. (...) To top it all off, Flash offers absolutely nothing that modern browsers can't deliver via HTML/CSS/JS. This means that in exchange for using a proprietary, buggy, resource hungry, inaccessible plugin you get to do.... absolutely nothing that you couldn't do with standard, open technologies. Awesome.

The one thing that I absolutely need right now for a Web App (it's a Web-based remote control front-end that takes the place of an existing desktop application) is a way to connect to an previously-existing raw binary TCP/IP socket (NOT an HTTP server), and exchange information asynchronously, with the server pushing new data to the client continually without any prompting or "pulling", and vice-versa from the client to the server.

Flash has a means of doing that with its Socket object. So far I haven't found a means of doing that with any plain HTML/CSS/JS references I've located. (I'd really love to be pointed to an alternative that would work though! The most important caveat is that it MUST NOT involve modifying the server side.)
 
Flash over MMS, Turn by Turn GPS??

Because I really care about flash on my phone!! Then I can see some awesome advertisements for new condoms and viagra! woohoo!
 
Have you ever tried actually building something with Flash?

Yes. Daily.

Flash is a proprietary technology. There is exactly one fully-functional implementation of it. That implementation sucks on every single platform that's not Windows NT/x86 (where it just sucks less). The first-part implementation is known for being unstable and resource hungry. The content that requires the plugin is nearly invisible to search engines, and is completely inaccessible to disabled users. To top it all off, Flash offers absolutely nothing that modern browsers can't deliver via HTML/CSS/JS.
That certainly sounds like a bad technology to me.

You don't know what you're talking about:

Adobe has made the search engine SDK available for years now, so Google, and all other search engines written to do so CAN see the content in a Flash file (try a google search ending in "filetype:swf"). As can screen readers using MSAA (like Jaws and Windows Eyes, the two dominant screen readers in the world.

ActionScript is based on the SAME ECMA standard that JavaScript is based on; it has nearly the same implementation and structure of any OOP language (take time to learn it rather than bash it).

And, yes, Flash offers something HTML/CSS/JS doesn't: TOTAL control over the user experience, and a development environment that doesn't require years of programming experience (that's what it was made for!).

As I said, it's easy to find bad, resource-intensive examples of Flash. But so too with JavaScript. Saying "Flash sucks" is like saying "JavaScript sucks because I don't like pop-up windows", or "Photoshop sucks because I found a bunch of idiots building web pages out of huge images."
 
I'm going to go ahead and say this: DRM doesn't work. It just doesn't. If the user can play it back using an "approved playback mechanism", someone will make a program that allows users to play it back using an unapproved one. Always. This happens every goram time someone deploys a DRM scheme.

Sigh.

I notice you only took part of my post.

Using Flash to stop people for the most part going and taking the files works. 99%+ of the population will not bother trying to get around it.

That's a better success rate than door locks. So, do you lock your door? After all, I can buy a lockpick from lots of places.

For rental models (and things like the iPlayer are unquestionably a rental model, and save a lot over taking permanent copies), DRM is a good thing. It gives consumers choice.

Phazer
 
If this does happen would it be as simple as an update or would a new phone have to be purchased :confused:
 
How many PHONES are running multiple applications at once? Thats right! those phones running on the FAILED Windows Mobile platform.

Multiple applications at the current stage of battery power, and processor power consumption is a nightmare. Wait a year or so and it will happen. Right now is not the time.

Although, Apple REALLY NEEDS to get the freaking Push updates delivered already... Its over 5 months late.

There is one limitation with multitasking and one only - The iPhone has no swap file. If you run out of memory, the phone resets, and in its current state the SDK allows an application to use almost all of the memory. On a computer, bloat means performance loss, whereas here it creates a situation where unreasonable expectations lead to dissatisfaction.

Apple made a good decision to only allow one app at once. And while in some ways I'd like to have multitasking, I don't believe they should add it to its full extent. What they SHOULD do is allow a special type of application that provides a service to run in the background with simple functionality. AirSharing can hold open a socket and transfer files, NetShare can keep the 3G-wifi link, IM programs can pass messages to users.

The policy needs to be VERY STRICT -- if there's no need to keep a connection alive, there's no need for it to be a service.

Now.. As for Flash...

Flash Lite is a joke. Yeah, Nokia phones have it, but there sure as hell is no decent content. Man, even the animated backgrounds that come with the phone struggle to have a decent framerate.

Full flash.. sure it can be done, but IT IS A MESS. And what people seem to be forgetting is that it's not going to suddenly make the iPhone a wonderful device. It already is, and Flash is not going to enhance the experience. Any YouTube video can already be played, so the only door it opens is the one for other players that mimic the same functionality.

Other than that, Flash is used for two things... ads and games. I sure as hell don't want my browser slowed down by crappy Flash ads... and games? Give me a break. They didn't work well on 400MHz Pentium IIs let alone a mobile device with the added memory speed limitations. And let's say Apple and Adobe can make something magical... let's assume that Flash can be tied in directly with well optimised OpenGL in the SDK and so on (it can't). The only games that would work are ones that rely on click and click only. There's no such thing as mouse movement... gestures are irrelevant because a swipe is still a touch and therefore a click... and there's no keyboard.

Get. Over. Flash. There are much more important things that Apple should be allocating their resources to.
 
Bladibla "you don't know what you're talking about with regards to the proprietary nature of Flash" etc

Your arguments are irrelevant. Yes, there are standards used, same with any technology. The proprietary nature of Flash is a problem because you are ALWAYS reliant on Adobe. You cannot create Flash without Adobe, you cannot modify Flash without Adobe, and you cannot view Flash without Adobe. That is what's wrong with proprietary software.. you're not giving the user a choice. If something works better, they should have the right to use it, and it's a notion Adobe has been fighting against for a long time.
 
Your arguments are irrelevant. Yes, there are standards used, same with any technology. The proprietary nature of Flash is a problem because you are ALWAYS reliant on Adobe. You cannot create Flash without Adobe,
Adobe (and Macromedia before them) have made the Flash specifications - containing the information necessary to author your own Flash content without making use of any Adobe tools - freely available since 1998.
you cannot modify Flash without Adobe,
Not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean to say that you cannot create your own extensions to Flash (beyond making innovative use of the existing APIs), then this is the case with JavaScript and other open standards too. It's just that a committee makes the decisions about changes to the specification instead of a company.
and you cannot view Flash without Adobe.
According to the former license agreement under which the Flash specification used to be released that used to be correct - you could use the specification to create your own Flash content, but you could not use it to build your own Flash player. Since the Open Screen Project started in May 2008, that license restriction is no longer in place.
 
...Flash is not going to enhance the experience. Any YouTube video can already be played, so the only door it opens is the one for other players that mimic the same functionality.

Other than that, Flash is used for two things... ads and games.

With logic like that, you could have your own show on FOX.

You think YouTube is the only site that offers video? Practically every network website does (and they use Flash to do it, and you can't view it on an iPhone; hence the strong desire among many that Apple include FlashPlayer... so we really will have "the real internet" available, like the ads promised).

And "Flash is only used for video, games and ads"?

Seriously?
 
The one thing that I absolutely need right now for a Web App (it's a Web-based remote control front-end that takes the place of an existing desktop application) is a way to connect to an previously-existing raw binary TCP/IP socket (NOT an HTTP server), and exchange information asynchronously, with the server pushing new data to the client continually without any prompting or "pulling", and vice-versa from the client to the server.

Out of curiosity, is there some reason that a Java applet's not suitable for this?

Adobe has made the search engine SDK available for years now, so Google, and all other search engines written to do so CAN see the content in a Flash file (try a google search ending in "filetype:swf"). As can screen readers using MSAA (like Jaws and Windows Eyes, the two dominant screen readers in the world.

As you are no doubt aware, there is a wide gap between theory and practice. In theory, Flash is a very accessible, open format that presents information for automated access just like HTML does. In practice, search engine support sucks compared to non-Flash content, and Section 508 compliance is exceedingly difficult.

ActionScript is based on the SAME ECMA standard that JavaScript is based on; it has nearly the same implementation and structure of any OOP language (take time to learn it rather than bash it).

That's like saying that Java is just like C because they're similar in syntax. The problem with ActionScript isn't the syntax, but rather the implementation.

And, yes, Flash offers something HTML/CSS/JS doesn't: TOTAL control over the user experience, and a development environment that doesn't require years of programming experience (that's what it was made for!).

What do you mean "total control over the user experience"?

As for the development environment... yes, Flash is more newbie friendly. That doesn't make it a better choice. Arguing that it does is like arguing that VB is better for application creation because it doesn't require years of programming experience.

As I said, it's easy to find bad, resource-intensive examples of Flash. But so too with JavaScript. Saying "Flash sucks" is like saying "JavaScript sucks because I don't like pop-up windows", or "Photoshop sucks because I found a bunch of idiots building web pages out of huge images."

The problem isn't that it's easy to find bad uses of Flash -- it's that it's hard to find good uses of it. I have yet to see a Flash-based solution that does things in a more efficient, more portable manner than a HTML/CSS/JS equivalent.

I know that individual examples don't make a language (otherwise nobody would ever use, say, PHP or Java) -- but when the majority of uses of a language/framework do things in a less-efficient, less-portable, more-resource hungry manner than their direct competitor, you have to wonder if perhaps it's not just the usage but also the implementation that sucks.

Adobe (and Macromedia before them) have made the Flash specifications - containing the information necessary to author your own Flash content without making use of any Adobe tools - freely available since 1998.

You're leaving out something: up until very recently, you couldn't use those specifications to develop a competing implementation. That pretty much blows the "open standard" argument out of the water. Yes, now it's different, but up until last year it was less of an "open standard" than OOXML -- and that's saying something.

Using Flash to stop people for the most part going and taking the files works. 99%+ of the population will not bother trying to get around it.

Except, thanks to the internet, the <1% that can will write an easy-to-use point and click tool to help the 99% that can't.

That's a better success rate than door locks. So, do you lock your door? After all, I can buy a lockpick from lots of places.

Yes, but that's because lockpicking still requires skill. If the lockpicks were point and click, I honestly wouldn't bother.

For rental models (and things like the iPlayer are unquestionably a rental model, and save a lot over taking permanent copies), DRM is a good thing. It gives consumers choice.

No, it's a bad thing. It's legal to tape a show for personal use. DRM, at least like Hulu et. al. use, prevents me from doing something that I would be legally allowed to do were it broadcast via conventional methods. Taking away user rights is never a good thing unless you're the content provider.
 
Out of curiosity, is there some reason that a Java applet's not suitable for this?

I never said nothing else can do what Flash does; I said Flash isn't bad simply because you can find examples of it used badly, and corrected some misinformation in another post.



As you are no doubt aware, there is a wide gap between theory and practice. In theory, Flash is a very accessible, open format that presents information for automated access just like HTML does. In practice, search engine support sucks compared to non-Flash content, and Section 508 compliance is exceedingly difficult.

My point exactly. Bad Flash experiences are created by bad Flash designers. Just because it takes extra work (exactly like making a standard HTML page compliant takes extra work) is no reason to lambast Flash.

What do you mean "total control over the user experience"?

Just that: Flash gives the UI developer total control over everything right down to the typeface (try that with CSS & JavaScript!)
 
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