Apple Music Apple to do lossless streaming?

[Webcat86]

I’ve been researching network streamers to update my home audio, and it seems Apple remains a minority by not offering lossless/hi-res streaming - not even CD quality. Apparently this is coming in a future update though. Has anyone heard more about this, like when it may happen?

I’m firmly in the Apple Music system and don’t want to leave it. But Amazon and Tidal are both able to stream at higher than CD quality, and it’s hard to justify spending decent money on upgraded hardware when the primary streaming service I’d use can’t take advantage of it

 

[pup]

Apple will stream lossless content to your Apple devices, obviously; but at least for now, Airplay rebroadcasts that content at 16/44.1, even though it technically should be able to do better. Same for Atmos. Unlike Atmos, they have yet to give access to their lossless content directly from their servers to streaming speakers like Sonos.

Whether those things are business decisions or technical ones is anyone’s guess, outside of Apple.

I’ve read that the new HomePod can stream lossless to another HomePod, but the article didn’t offer any actual evidence of it, nor do I see a reason to do that, since multiple HomePods should be able to stream that content directly, communicating with one another simply to coordinate playback (a la Sonos).

Anyway, the concise answer to your question is, unfortunately, “who knows?”

 

[Webcat86]

Apple will stream lossless content to your Apple devices, obviously;

Which ones? As you mentioned below, I have heard HomePods will, but a frequent criticism in reviews is that none of Apple's headphones receive lossless currently.

 

[BaldiMac]

As mentioned above, Apple Music already offers lossless audio. However, bluetooth does not support lossless audio, so you'll need wired or wifi speakers to listen to it.

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

 

[Webcat86]

As mentioned above, Apple Music already offers lossless audio. However, bluetooth does not support lossless audio, so you'll need wired or wifi speakers to listen to it.

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

...I know, this is the basis for the thread. My question isn't about them offering lossless audio (which I listen to with wired headphones into my Mac already), but if anyone has heard anything more concrete about apparent intentions to open it up for streaming like its rivals already do.

 

[pup]

Sigh. Sorry to have interrupted your rant with an answer.

 

[BaldiMac]

...I know, this is the basis for the thread. My question isn't about them offering lossless audio (which I listen to with wired headphones into my Mac already), but if anyone has heard anything more concrete about apparent intentions to open it up for streaming like its rivals already do.

Again, per the link that I posted, they already do lossless streaming. I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to make.

 

[Webcat86]

Sigh. Sorry to have interrupted your rant with an answer.

What rant? I just asked you which devices Apple streams lossless to, aside from HomePods, because its own website says it doesn't.

Again, per the link that I posted, they already do lossless streaming. I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to make.

To what? None of Apple's headphones will play lossless from Apple Music, and the network streamers I've been looking at e.g. Cambridge AXN V2, Marantz PM20007N) say they support AirPlay 2, but that AP2 doesn't stream in lossless quality (currently).

If your answer is they support it to wifi speakers then fair enough, and I'll accept that. But my question was more specifically asking if anyone here has heard more about the news that they're planning to offer it on par with Tidal and Amazon - I believe the actual difference is those platforms give the receiving platform permission to access the content directly, whereas AP2 streams it from the iPhone/iPad instead.

 

[BaldiMac]

To what? None of Apple's headphones will play lossless from Apple Music, and the network streamers I've been looking at e.g. Cambridge AXN V2, Marantz PM20007N) say they support AirPlay 2, but that AP2 doesn't stream in lossless quality (currently).

If your answer is they support it to wifi speakers then fair enough, and I'll accept that.

I already answered this question quite clearly, as does the article I posted. Wired or wifi connections to speakers are required. For example, you can use wired Airpods Max or Homepods or speakers connected to an Apple TV 4K via wires or wifi.

But my question was more specifically asking if anyone here has heard more about the news that they're planning to offer it on par with Tidal and Amazon - I believe the actual difference is those platforms give the receiving platform permission to access the content directly, whereas AP2 streams it from the iPhone/iPad instead.

The confusion is coming from the fact that you are mixing terminology. You're talking about streaming from music services, but what you are really asking about is bluetooth audio codecs. The closest common codec to lossless, CD quality that will stream over bluetooth is AptX HD from Qualcomm. AptX Adaptive and AptX Lossless are newer, but don't have much hardware support yet. I haven't heard any rumors about Apple adding support (except on the Mac). Given their relationship with Qualcomm, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Webcat86]

I already answered this question quite clearly, as does the article I posted. Wired or wifi connections to speakers are required. For example, you can use wired Airpods Max or Homepods or speakers connected to an Apple TV 4K via wires or wifi.


The confusion is coming from the fact that you are mixing terminology. You're talking about streaming from music services, but what you are really asking about is bluetooth audio codecs. The closest common codec to lossless, CD quality that will stream over bluetooth is AptX HD from Qualcomm. AptX Adaptive and AptX Lossless are newer, but don't have much hardware support yet. I haven't heard any rumors about Apple adding support (except on the Mac). Given their relationship with Qualcomm, I'm not holding my breath.

I think the confusion is that you’re answering a question that wasn’t asked.

The question is fundamentally simple: has anyone heard of plans for Apple to give the same functionality as other platforms.

Evidently the answer from you is “no, I haven’t”

 

[Webcat86]

To clarify any confusion here, if my original question wasn’t clear: I am not referring to the ability to stream from AM in lossless quality to my iPhone (or whatever device).

I’m asking about using AirPlay 2 to stream from an Apple device to a receiving device like the Cambridge AXN V2, in lossless. This, as i understand it, is what Apple doesn’t offer but rivals do.

This isn’t the same question as plugging headphones into Apple TV and listening to the music directly.

 

[BaldiMac]

I think the confusion is that you’re answering a question that wasn’t asked.

Here is you asking the question that I originally answered:

Which ones?

To what?

The question is fundamentally simple: has anyone heard of plans for Apple to give the same functionality as other platforms.

Evidently the answer from you is “no, I haven’t”

Again, your "fundamentally simple" question, isn't that. Tidal doesn't make headphones, so asking when Apple will make headphones with the same functionality as Tidal is a non sequitur. That's why I added context to my answer.

To clarify any confusion here, if my original question wasn’t clear: I am not referring to the ability to stream from AM in lossless quality to my iPhone (or whatever device).

I’m asking about using AirPlay 2 to stream from an Apple device to a receiving device like the Cambridge AXN V2, in lossless. This, as i understand it, is what Apple doesn’t offer but rivals do.

This isn’t the same question as plugging headphones into Apple TV and listening to the music directly.

Now I'm even more confused. Airplay 2 already supports lossless audio. It uses ALAC at CD quality.

 

[headlessmike]

Now I'm even more confused. Airplay 2 already supports lossless audio. It uses ALAC at CD quality.

AirPlay 1 as well.

 

[Webcat86]

Again, your "fundamentally simple" question, isn't that. Tidal doesn't make headphones, so asking when Apple will make headphones with the same functionality as Tidal is a non sequitur. That's why I added context to my answer.

That's not my question at all... headphones have nothing to do with it.

My original question was about streaming to network streamers in a home audio system:

I’ve been researching network streamers to update my home audio, and it seems Apple remains a minority by not offering lossless/hi-res streaming - not even CD quality. Apparently this is coming in a future update though. Has anyone heard more about this, like when it may happen?

I’m firmly in the Apple Music system and don’t want to leave it. But Amazon and Tidal are both able to stream at higher than CD quality, and it’s hard to justify spending decent money on upgraded hardware when the primary streaming service I’d use can’t take advantage of it

Let me elaborate to try and clear up any remaining complications. The use case is that you can stream from a music service on your phone, to the network streamer. That streamer is connected to an amp and speakers, essentially negating the need for a CD player.

Tidal, Amazon, Chromecast etc all allow you to stream to these devices in hi-res lossless. Apple will stream to them using AirPlay 2, but not to high res. There's more about this on Amazon Music's page https://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=3022219031

Now I'm even more confused. Airplay 2 already supports lossless audio. It uses ALAC at CD quality.

Can you elaborate on what is possible and what devices allow it? My understanding is HomePods have recently been updated to use AP2 to share a stream, in lossless quality, to a second HomePod for multi-room usage - which might be an indication that Apple is expanding this (an article on the HomePod's extended capabilities at https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/apple-homepod-24-bit-lossless-audio-airplay-2/). But beyond that, Apple's own pages state that lossless audio requires wired connections

 

[BaldiMac]

That's not my question at all... headphones have nothing to do with it.

My original question was about streaming to network streamers in a home audio system:

Let me elaborate to try and clear up any remaining complications. The use case is that you can stream from a music service on your phone, to the network streamer. That streamer is connected to an amp and speakers, essentially negating the need for a CD player.

Okay. So do you want a network streamer with native support for Apple Music Hi Res Lossless? Seems like an Apple TV 4K would be the obvious answer.

Tidal, Amazon, Chromecast etc all allow you to stream to these devices in hi-res lossless. Apple will stream to them using AirPlay 2, but not to high res. There's more about this on Amazon Music's page https://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=3022219031

The device would need to add support for the service, not the other way around. For your Cambridge example, Cambridge would need to add support for Apple Music, just like it does for Spotify and Tidal. Otherwise, you are limited to CD-quality lossless by Airplay.

Or are you just looking for rumors on Airplay upgrades above lossless CD quality?

Can you elaborate on what is possible and what devices allow it?

Tons of devices support Airplay 2. As far as what is possible with Airplay, again, it's Apple Lossless at CD quality.

 

[Webcat86]

The device would need to add support for the service, not the other way around. For your Cambridge example, Cambridge would need to add support for Apple Music, just like it does for Spotify and Tidal. Otherwise, you are limited to CD-quality lossless by Airplay.

how so? The tech sites are awash with articles explaining Apple doesn’t currently offer lossless streaming via AirPlay and you’re trying to assert it’s actually every other company’s fault? Maybe you’re right, but a little elaboration would go a long way to educating me instead of this being a perpetual merry-go-round.

Or are you just looking for rumors on Airplay upgrades above lossless CD quality?

Again, where are you even seeing that AirPlay does lossless at all? Apple’s page, which you yourself linked to, says lossless requires a wired connection. (Edit: confusingly, it’s Apple’s own headphones that require wires, and CD quality can be streamed elsewhere - but as below, the question is regarding Apple’s hi-res lossless being as easy to share as its competitors’ music platforms)

But to your specific question: yes, basically. I read an article on “What HiFi” which mentioned Apple was apparently working on allowing it, and said they’d reached out to Apple for confirmation. At the time I read it, Apple hadn’t replied. Seeing as this is an Apple-focused forum, I figured it a reasonable place to ask if anyone else was aware of such plans. Like we’re all aware of Spotify’s plans to offer higher quality, but we’re all clueless on when it’ll happen.

 

[BaldiMac]

how so? The tech sites are awash with articles explaining Apple doesn’t currently offer lossless streaming via AirPlay and you’re trying to assert it’s actually every other company’s fault? Maybe you’re right, but a little elaboration would go a long way to educating me instead of this being a perpetual merry-go-round.

I can't speak to what unspecified articles are saying.

Again, where are you even seeing that AirPlay does lossless at all?

Every Google search I click on comes up with CD-quality lossless (ALAC). Here's Wikipedia for example

AirPlay - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apple’s page, which you yourself linked to, says lossless requires a wired connection.

Sigh. No. It says it require wired or wifi. Bluetooth is only significant connection that doesn't support Apple lossless.

But to your specific question: yes, basically. I read an article on “What HiFi” which mentioned Apple was apparently working on allowing it, and said they’d reached out to Apple for confirmation. At the time I read it, Apple hadn’t replied. Seeing as this is an Apple-focused forum, I figured it a reasonable place to ask if anyone else was aware of such plans.

I haven't seen any rumors on this site about Airplay upgrades.

Like we’re all aware of Spotify’s plans to offer higher quality, but we’re all clueless on when it’ll happen.

What does Spotify have to do with anything? Again, your confusing the streaming service with the device makers. Spotify doesn't control device to device streaming.

 

[Webcat86]

What does Spotify have to do with anything? Again, your confusing the streaming service with the device makers. Spotify doesn't control device to device streaming.

At this point, I have to conclude you’re just being obtuse.

 

[AvgMrcl]

My solution to your problem is doing an ABX test and realising that you're not capable of hearing the difference between ALAC and AAC. Btw, AirPlay 2 supports up to 16/44.1 so just look for devices that support. How would HomePods be able to do it if AirPlay 2 doesn't support it? But, lossless is still a scam.

 

[BaldiMac]

At this point, I have to conclude you’re just being obtuse.

Or… I’m volunteering to help you. And you don’t understand the nuances of what you are asking.

I’m answering your questions as clearly as I can. Why doesn’t an Apple TV meet your requirements? It’s cheaper and streams Hi Res lossless from Apple Music.

 

[Webcat86]

How would HomePods be able to do it if AirPlay 2 doesn't support it?

The article I linked to above said that it’s a new (at the time of writing) feature for HomePods, and wasn’t there previously. Which could be an indication that Apple is testing it prior to rolling it out on a wider scale as “What HiFi” noted in the other article I linked.

But, lossless is still a scam.

Yes I think so too. I have no interest in listening to Apple’s (or anyone’s) Hi-Res lossless, but a bump over standard CD quality on high quality equipment is possible. But it would be nice to know the option is there, at least.

 

[Webcat86]

Or… I’m volunteering to help you. And you don’t understand the nuances of what you are asking.

The very first response in this thread gave an appropriate answer. You’ve been trying to suggest I don’t know what I’m asking, in order for your answers to be correct. Strange. Even when I elaborated on what I’d read that prompted the thread, and where I read it, you said you’ve not seen it here and can’t answer unspecified articles - which is fine, but then don’t comment in the first place?

I’m answering your questions as clearly as I can. Why doesn’t an Apple TV meet your requirements? It’s cheaper and streams Hi Res lossless from Apple Music.

I own an Apple TV 4k. But it’s not relevant to my question regarding home audio equipment and Apple Music lacking the ability to send music to a network streamer in higher quality.

And this is hardly secret stuff - take a cursory glance at reasons people give for using Tidal, as one example, and many will say it’s because of this. The audio shop I bought some headphones from this weekend use Tidal for streaming music to their audio equipment because they can select higher quality files than they get from Apple and Spotify. Likewise I’ve been told today to switch to Amazon because it has HD and HD Ultra (which is essentially similar to Apple’s Hi Res Lossless).

Anyway, the long and short of it is you don’t know if there are plans for devices like network streamers to play songs from Apple Music in its Hi-Res Lossless format, which is what this thread is asking. So, thanks for contributing.

 

[VoxMac]

Hello, maybe you should look at other streamer devices, sush as the Rose Hifi RS250a (https://eng.hifirose.com/RS250-RS250A) that are able to stream High-Res Apple Music via the Android Apple Music installed on it.

 

[Webcat86]

Hello, maybe you should look at other streamer devices, sush as the Rose Hifi RS250a (https://eng.hifirose.com/RS250-RS250A) that are able to stream High-Res Apple Music via the Android Apple Music installed on it.

Thanks! Not heard of this one before

 

[headlessmike]

The very first response in this thread gave an appropriate answer. You’ve been trying to suggest I don’t know what I’m asking, in order for your answers to be correct. Strange. Even when I elaborated on what I’d read that prompted the thread, and where I read it, you said you’ve not seen it here and can’t answer unspecified articles - which is fine, but then don’t comment in the first place?

To be fair, your questions have been a bit unclear, making it difficult to fully comprehend what you are asking at times. Airplay has supported lossless (CD-quality) playback since it was released in 2004 (then known as AirTunes). Certain vendors may not support that feature, but all of the HomePods do after a firmware update in 2021. AirPlay requires a device (e.g. iPhone or Mac) to stream to the receiver and AirPlay 2 made some improvements to how this is done, but it didn't change the fact that lossless playback is supported up to CD-quality (16-bit, 44.1 KHz sampling rate). I've used AirPlay since 2005 with different AirPort Expresses connected to stereo amplifiers and they have all supported lossless playback.

In some of your comments it sounds like you are more interested in devices that directly stream from Apple Music without using AirPlay. I don't have enough experience to give an answer about those, but I know that Samsung TVs don't, to give one example.

Bluetooth has come up a few times in this thread as well and doesn't support lossless playback.