Apple Music Apple to do lossless streaming?

[Webcat86]

To be fair, your questions have been a bit unclear, making it difficult to fully comprehend what you are asking at times. Airplay has supported lossless (CD-quality) playback since it was released in 2004 (then known as AirTunes). Certain vendors may not support that feature, but all of the HomePods do after a firmware update in 2021. AirPlay requires a device (e.g. iPhone or Mac) to stream to the receiver and AirPlay 2 made some improvements to how this is done, but it didn't change the fact that lossless playback is supported up to CD-quality (16-bit, 44.1 KHz sampling rate). I've used AirPlay since 2005 with different AirPort Expresses connected to stereo amplifiers and they have all supported lossless playback.

In some of your comments it sounds like you are more interested in devices that directly stream from Apple Music without using AirPlay. I don't have enough experience to give an answer about those, but I know that Samsung TVs don't, to give one example.

Bluetooth has come up a few times in this thread as well and doesn't support lossless playback.

Yeah I’ve learned a few things in this thread, and I can see my original question may have not been clear that I didn’t mean like “can I stream from AM to my iPhone in lossless” and specifically meant can I stream *from* an Apple device to a receiving device in lossless.

It’s reassuring to know that it can be done in CD quality.

As for how the receiver works - I’m open to whatever method. Certainly happy to use AirPlay instead of the device accessing it directly, although my understanding at the moment is that one reason AM can’t stream (to a receiver) in its Hi Res Lossless is because it transmits from the Apple device, whereas other companies, like Tidal, let the device access their content directly. I’m not sure how accurate that is but it’s what I’ve heard.

What prompted this thread was reading that Apple would be changing the current limitation so that Hi Res Lossless could be streamed as well, allowing people to hear above CD quality. But when I read it, it was unsubstantiated and this seemed like an appropriate audience to ask if anyone was aware of such a rumour.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Yeah I’ve learned a few things in this thread, and I can see my original question may have not been clear that I didn’t mean like “can I stream from AM to my iPhone in lossless” and specifically meant can I stream *from* an Apple device to a receiving device in lossless.

It’s reassuring to know that it can be done in CD quality.

As for how the receiver works - I’m open to whatever method. Certainly happy to use AirPlay instead of the device accessing it directly, although my understanding at the moment is that one reason AM can’t stream (to a receiver) in its Hi Res Lossless is because it transmits from the Apple device, whereas other companies, like Tidal, let the device access their content directly. I’m not sure how accurate that is but it’s what I’ve heard.

What prompted this thread was reading that Apple would be changing the current limitation so that Hi Res Lossless could be streamed as well, allowing people to hear above CD quality. But when I read it, it was unsubstantiated and this seemed like an appropriate audience to ask if anyone was aware of such a rumour.

AppleTV 4K to an HDMI-equipped receiver or processor. You get lossless up to 24/48.

 

[Webcat86]

AppleTV 4K to an HDMI-equipped receiver or processor. You get lossless up to 24/192.

Would that require a DAC in the receiver still, or does ATV have one like the iPhone used to? I have my ATV connected to an Atmos soundbar (which sounds great to be honest)

Edit: just found this thread on the Apple forum and the first response, the long Helpful one, seems to think even the latest ATV 4k doesn't support the Hi-Res lossless even on an HDMI connection - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254346903

At the very least, it's clear I'm not the only one feeling confused

 

[BeatCrazy]

Would that require a DAC in the receiver still, or does ATV have one like the iPhone used to? I have my ATV connected to an Atmos soundbar (which sounds great to be honest)

Edit: just found this thread on the Apple forum and the first response, the long Helpful one, seems to think even the latest ATV 4k doesn't support the Hi-Res lossless even on an HDMI connection - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254346903

At the very least, it's clear I'm not the only one feeling confused

All receivers have DACs. The Apple TV does not. If you want to go way down the rabbit hole, you can use an HDMI to S/PDIF converter, then feed that to a traditional DAC.

Yes, the Apple TV 4K supports hi-res lossless via HDMI. It's maxed at 24/48kHz however. But it does support multi-channel/Dolby Atmos.

If you want stereo 24/192, you'll need to use an iPhone or iPad, plus a USB DAC. Then you can feed that analog signal to whatever you want.

 

[Webcat86]

All receivers have DACs. The Apple TV does not. If you want to go way down the rabbit hole, you can use an HDMI to S/PDIF converter, then feed that to a traditional DAC.

Yes, the Apple TV 4K supports hi-res lossless via HDMI. It's maxed at 24/48kHz however. But it does support multi-channel/Dolby Atmos.

That's lossless, not hi-res lossless, in Apple's parlance. Attached screenshot is the settings panel of Apple Music

 

[BeatCrazy]

That's lossless, not hi-res lossless, in Apple's parlance. Attached screenshot is the settings panel of Apple Music

Pedantic. Depending on the source content, the digital retailer, and other factors, 24/48 is considered hi-res lossless.

If the music was recorded/mastered natively at 24/48, and the Apple TV sends out a bit-perfect output of that content, it is considered hi-res lossless.

16/44.1 or 16/48 lossless would not be considered hi-res.

Even the RIAA defines hi-res as 20/48 or greater: https://www.riaa.com/high-resolutio...and-branding-materials-for-digital-retailers/

 

[Webcat86]

Pedantic. Depending on the source content, the digital retailer, and other factors, 24/48 can be considered hi-res lossless.

If the music was recorded/mastered natively at 24/48, and the Apple TV sends out a bit-perfect output of that content, it is considered hi-res lossless.

16/44.1 or 16/48 lossless would not be considered hi-res.

It might be pedantic in the grander scheme of things, but when we’re talking about Apple Music as a specific platform, it’s not - we’re using Apple’s own definitions.

 

[BeatCrazy]

It might be pedantic in the grander scheme of things, but when we’re talking about Apple Music as a specific platform, it’s not - we’re using Apple’s own definitions.

From your/Apple's screen shot it says:
Hi-Res Lossless (ALAC up to 24-bit/192 kHz)

Which means 24/48 lossless can fit that definition. Not all content is mastered above 48kHz, so it's not precluded from being Hi-Res, as long as the bit depth is >20bits.

I'm not sure exactly if you're trying to accomplish something, or just in the mood to argue? There a lots of folks here trying to help, and have more experience (than you) with this sort of thing.

You're currently using a sound bar. No offense, and not I'm not bragging, but I'm streaming Apple Music Lossless Hi-Res to a Marantz AV8805A + McIntosh MC452 amp, and B&W Nautilus speakers. When it comes to hi resolution sources and playback, I've got a fair amount of experience with both Apple Music, and other sources.

 

[Webcat86]

From your/Apple's screen shot it says:
Hi-Res Lossless (ALAC up to 24-bit/192 kHz)

Which means 24/48 lossless can fit that definition. Not all content is mastered about 48kHz, so it's not precluded from being Hi-Res, as long as the bit depth is >20bits.

I'm not sure exactly if you're trying to accomplish something, or just in the mood to argue? There a lots of folks here trying to help, and have more experience (than you) with this sort of thing.

You're currently using a sound bar. No offense, and not I'm not bragging, but I'm streaming Apple Music Lossless Hi-Res to a Marantz AV8805A + McIntosh MC452 amp, and B&W Nautilus speakers. When it comes to hi resolution sources and playback, I've got a fair amount of experience with both Apple Music, and other sources.

Relax. I'm not arguing, but let's be clear: if somebody asks a specific question about a specific product, that's the topic at hand. If you want to take Apple up on why their naming is misleading, by all means I won't stand in your way. But the question is about streaming Apple's definition of Hi-Res, so it's not as helpful as you think it is to just say "use the lower one, it's the same thing."

 

[BeatCrazy]

Relax. I'm not arguing, but let's be clear: if somebody asks a specific question about a specific product, that's the topic at hand. If you want to take Apple up on why their naming is misleading, by all means I won't stand in your way. But the question is about streaming Apple's definition of Hi-Res, so it's not as helpful as you think it is to just say "use the lower one, it's the same thing."

Feels like several people have given you options for Apple Music lossless streaming (your thread title).

If 24/192 is what you're really chasing, then you'll need to use an iPhone/iPad with either a Lightning to USB dongle, or USB-C iPad (or Mac) to an external USB DAC that supports 24/192.

 

[Webcat86]

Feels like several people have given you options for Apple Music lossless streaming (your thread title).

If 24/192 is what you're really chasing, then you'll need to use an iPhone/iPad with either a Lightning to USB dongle, or USB-C iPad (or Mac) to an external USB DAC that supports 24/192.

If you scroll back up, this particular conversation started because you put - in bold - that "the Apple TV 4K supports hi-res lossless via HDMI"

And I've just pointed out that it doesn't. Lossless in the true sense of the definition perhaps, but not Apple's. Unlike Apple's other devices, ATV doesn't even list Hi-Res as an option

 

[BeatCrazy]

If you scroll back up, this particular conversation started because you put - in bold - that "the Apple TV 4K supports hi-res lossless via HDMI"

And I've just pointed out that it doesn't. Lossless in the true sense of the definition perhaps, but not Apple's. Unlike Apple's other devices, ATV doesn't even list Hi-Res as an option

For audio enthusiasts using the traditional (or even industry-standard RIAA definition) definition, my statement is accurate. If you purchase a 'hi-res lossless' 24/48 audio file, and stream it from your Apple TV Plex app, you will indeed get 24/48 via HDMI.

Does my statement align with how Apple (mostly, but not always) defines hi-res lossless? No.

 

[the future]

To actually (maybe) hear a difference between CD quality and Hi-res Lossles, you would also have to be ready to spend at least a five-figure sum on audio equipment. If you‘re not ready to do this, your questions are pointless anyways.

 

[arw]

Apple is even inconsistent in its own definition. In regard to the Airpods Max they follow the RIAA definition as they mention Hi-Res Lossless although it's capped at 24-bit/48 kHz. (well and not bit perfect lossless, but they do recognize this fact)

AirPods Max can be connected to devices playing Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless recordings with exceptional audio quality. However, given the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable, the playback will not be completely lossless.

 

[Webcat86]

Does my statement align with how Apple (mostly, but not always) defines hi-res lossless? No.

exactly. Now check the forum and thread you’re on - the topic is literally about Apple Music’s Hi Res

 

[Webcat86]

Apple is even inconsistent in its own definition. In regard to the Airpods Max they follow the RIAA definition as they mention Hi-Res Lossless although it's capped at 24-bit/48 kHz. (well and not bit perfect lossless, but they do recognize this fact)

That seems to be Apple using specific language to mask that the Max don’t play the hi res lossless files - they can “connect to a device playing hi-res lossless but the playback won’t be lossless”

 

[BeatCrazy]

exactly. Now check the forum and thread you’re on.

Several folks here have offered to help, many with lots of hands-on and content + hardware experience for hi-res and lossless. But you don't seem interested, rather you want to argue?

 

[Webcat86]

Several folks here have offered to help, many with lots of hands-on and content + hardware experience for hi-res and lossless. But you don't seem interested, rather you want to argue?

Seems it’s you who wants to argue.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Seems it’s you who wants to argue.

You just proved my point. Carry on! 😂

 

[pup]

lol, to think that I was worried that I had tapped out of this thread too hastily.

 

[Webcat86]

lol, to think that I was worried that I had tapped out of this thread too hastily.

and all this time later, you remain the only person who gave a decent answer

 

[TMB]

and all this time later, you remain the only person who gave a decent answer

I too have the same issue. I want the highest quality music streamed to my Hi-Fi setup via apple music form my iPhone.

CD quality - 16/44
Apple Airplay 2 - 16/44.1 "Lossless"
AppleTV 4K (via MDMI) - 24/48 "Hi-Res Lossless"
iPhone via lightning/USB camera adaptor - up to 24/192 "hi-Res Lossless"

These are your current Lossless options until Apple allows direct streaming.

This is what I am currently doing while I wait:

iPhone Airplay2 to Bluestream Node, Bluestream Node via analog RCA outs to Decware integrated tube amp to the speakers @ 16/44.1 Lossless (most stuff sounds pretty good). The Bluestream Node has a MDMI input so you could run your AppleTV 4K into it at 24/48.

Semi-wireless option. iPhone/ipad/mac connected to RME ADI-2 DAC FS via Lightning/USB Audio camera adaptor. Analog RCA outs from the RME ADI-2 to the Decware integrated amp to the speakers. Basic controls (volume/change song/play-pause/light search) are done from my apple watch.

Also, if you use a lightning to RCA cable (or headphone dongle connected to a mini plug to full RCA cable) you can play directly from your iPhone to your amp @ 24/48. Which is the max resolution that the onboard DAC supports through the lightning port on the iPhone - higher resolution information can be passed through the lightning port but it requires a more capable DAC. IMO this option has the lowest sound quality of the other 2 options with the RME ADI-2 being the best and the Bluesound node sounding great and being the most convenient.

The ultimate issue is support for hi-res streaming, there are plenty of amps and streamers that have more than capable DACs built into them but getting the music in full hi-res streamed from your iPhone using apple music is the weak link. The other services allow the devices to connect directly to the service.

One last option which I haven't tried is the Sonos Port. I believe it is 16/48 max resolution and is the only direct connect apple music device (airplay2 as well). It has RCA in/outs but no USB audio input.

 

[Webcat86]

I too have the same issue. I want the highest quality music streamed to my Hi-Fi setup via apple music form my iPhone.

CD quality - 16/44
Apple Airplay 2 - 16/44.1 "Lossless"
AppleTV 4K (via MDMI) - 24/48 "Hi-Res Lossless"
iPhone via lightning/USB camera adaptor - up to 24/192 "hi-Res Lossless"

These are your current Lossless options until Apple allows direct streaming.

This is what I am currently doing while I wait:

iPhone Airplay2 to Bluestream Node, Bluestream Node via analog RCA outs to Decware integrated tube amp to the speakers @ 16/44.1 Lossless (most stuff sounds pretty good). The Bluestream Node has a MDMI input so you could run your AppleTV 4K into it at 24/48.

Semi-wireless option. iPhone/ipad/mac connected to RME ADI-2 DAC FS via Lightning/USB Audio camera adaptor. Analog RCA outs from the RME ADI-2 to the Decware integrated amp to the speakers. Basic controls (volume/change song/play-pause/light search) are done from my apple watch.

Also, if you use a lightning to RCA cable (or headphone dongle connected to a mini plug to full RCA cable) you can play directly from your iPhone to your amp @ 24/48. Which is the max resolution that the onboard DAC supports through the lightning port on the iPhone - higher resolution information can be passed through the lightning port but it requires a more capable DAC. IMO this option has the lowest sound quality of the other 2 options with the RME ADI-2 being the best and the Bluesound node sounding great and being the most convenient.

The ultimate issue is support for hi-res streaming, there are plenty of amps and streamers that have more than capable DACs built into them but getting the music in full hi-res streamed from your iPhone using apple music is the weak link. The other services allow the devices to connect directly to the service.

One last option which I haven't tried is the Sonos Port. I believe it is 16/48 max resolution and is the only direct connect apple music device (airplay2 as well). It has RCA in/outs but no USB audio input.

Thanks for the detailed answer. That sounds like an interesting setup that you’ve got.

I’m going to look at audio systems this weekend. I’m happy with the standard lossless, which makes the decision easier

 

[Spankey]

So I came to this thread based solely on listening observations and further research which sadly proved that even CD quality streaming is not possible via Airplay at the moment. Streaming Tidal and physical media through Roon all have noticeable improvements in sound quality on my system. Hmmmm…

Well it turns out Apple Music is currently transcoding all lossless ALAC to AAC over Airplay!

Apple Music HiFi Tier incoming?

Hi @Simon-in-Suffolk et all, Currently Apple are forcing an aac link on Airplay2 when using Apple Music, even if the ui is saying lossless. This was documented on one of their FAQ pages. So example: Now lets turn on the internal metrics airplay2 trace: Observe the aac 256kbit link...

community.naimaudio.com

 

[arw]

CD quality streaming is not possible via Airplay at the moment

Wow, that’s surprising, considering Apples hype about (hi-res) lossless.
But as far as I understand this (AAC) limitation is only occuring when using Apple Music (Streaming? Downloaded Content?) and in combination with Airplay 2.
Just emphasizing it is not a general constraint of the protocol but an active doing of Apple under certain circumstances.