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That would seem to also explain why XBMC, which solely relies on cpu, also sucks on the ATV.

Probably, as well evidence of new atv software updates upgrading the atv's use of the gpu for decoding also help explain why as of version 2, for the first time the atv actually offered higher specs for h.264 than for MPEG-4. Normally MPEG-4 is much less cpu intensive to decode than h.264, however the nvidia gpu cannot decode regular MPEG-4 so its all done by the atv's 1Ghz cpu.

http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html

Not always but sometimes those apple fellers are pretty smart.
 
If they can do 1080p with the current hardware — that'd be fantastic. Although, I'd rather have on-the-fly playlist creation for Movies, TV Shows and Podcasts first. :)

We used to have a member who was on the Apple TV team. I know he answered many of our questions about the Take 2 update. I'm sure we've scared him off by now, but maybe someday he'll comment on the CPU/GPU.

On a side note, I really love my Apple TV (especially since the 2.3 update). I just wish Steve Jobs would quit calling it a hobby. :rolleyes:

It makes it sound like he's prepared to dump it at anytime.
 
If they can do 1080p with the current hardware — that'd be fantastic.
Well, even using the gpu for decoding 1080p with any real decent bitrate and options seems unlikely, right now they aren't even doing 720 at 29 fps, only 24 (though I have manually transferred 29fps at 720 with cabac even and the atv played it just fine, which points to an iTunes limitation not atv). But, each update does seem to squeeze a bit more out of the decoder .... we can only hope.
 
All this seems to be an either/or discussion. Why not a combo atv/blu-ray unit? Some things are more convenient on disk and others as downloads. An all-in-one Apple device would have been nice.

As it is, I bought a $200 Black Friday Sony BR player. Accessing and loading disks is not that hard, really, and the quality is the best possible.

Yes, I know Apple wants to sell downloads. I don't think offering access to disks would limit ITunes sales at all. People who will not commit to atv would have one and if they liked the service, they would use it, eventually migrating almost exclusively to downloads. Right now you have to either get two devices, or commit to one or the other.

1080p is what people want, like it or not, or whether they "need" it or not. Any new device needs to work at 1080p or it will not sell as well as it might.
 
1080p is what people want, like it or not, or whether they "need" it or not. Any new device needs to work at 1080p or it will not sell as well as it might.

LOL. This statement couldn't be further from the truth. The truth is a small minority of message boards posters, technology geeks, and videophiles want 1080p (blu ray). The FACT is that the sales figures are making it painfully clear, that even at $200 (and less), the average public doesn't care about 1080p content (blu ray) at all.

Apple is not going to push any technology that either doesn't already have a mainstream market demand .. or that doesn't in some way create a competitive advantage for them. Blu ray has no mainstream demand whatsoever. And the technology provides Apple with no unique competitive advantage (think technology lock in). Hence we see blu ray on 0 Apple products.
 
ATV Output Setting is 1080P

If I understand this correctly, the TV Setting of 1080P means the AppleTV will UP-CONVERT to 1080P, Right? If so, why can't it support full HD as the input source?

Thanks,
 
LOL. This statement couldn't be further from the truth. The truth is a small minority of message boards posters, technology geeks, and videophiles want 1080p (blu ray). The FACT is that the sales figures are making it painfully clear, that even at $200 (and less), the average public doesn't care about 1080p content (blu ray) at all.

Apple is not going to push any technology that either doesn't already have a mainstream market demand .. or that doesn't in some way create a competitive advantage for them. Blu ray has no mainstream demand whatsoever. And the technology provides Apple with no unique competitive advantage (think technology lock in). Hence we see blu ray on 0 Apple products.

I tend to agree. I think it's becoming more and more obvious that 1080p and Blu-Ray are not necessarily the next big thing. If I had to put money down at this moment, I'd put it on 720p downloadable and streaming content becoming the next big thing.
 
If I understand this correctly, the TV Setting of 1080P means the AppleTV will UP-CONVERT to 1080P, Right? If so, why can't it support full HD as the input source?

Thanks,

To expand on your question does this also mean that the ATV should be set to 720p on that menu even tho your TV may have 1080p? I was wondering about that. I have switched back and forth a few times from 720 to 1080 and streamed a movie. I don't see any difference in the picture quality.

.
 
LOL. This statement couldn't be further from the truth. The truth is a small minority of message boards posters, technology geeks, and videophiles want 1080p (blu ray). The FACT is that the sales figures are making it painfully clear, that even at $200 (and less), the average public doesn't care about 1080p content (blu ray) at all.

I don't think you've looked much outside these Apple forums then. Blu-Ray is currently being adopted at a much faster pace than the DVD was when it was first introduced. So how you can possibly suggest the public doesn't want it, I don't know other than the typical ignorance of all things outside Apple I find on these forums on a near daily basis.

Apple is not going to push any technology that either doesn't already have a mainstream market demand .. or that doesn't in some way create a competitive advantage for them. Blu ray has no mainstream demand whatsoever.

The no mainstream bit is total bologna (see above). The truth is Apple doesn't want to support Blu-ray because it conflicts with their own HD movie rentals and tv show sales (and they probably have more plans over time with iTunes). That's money straight into their pockets. And Apple has proven time and time again, that it acts only out of the interests of their wallets. They don't care about consumer desires, be it mid-range towers or OS X Blu-ray movie support. They only care about maximizing profit and often emphasizing form (Steve seems obsessed with 'thin') over function.


And the technology provides Apple with no unique competitive advantage (think technology lock in). Hence we see blu ray on 0 Apple products.

Read: Blu-ray offers Apple no barrels of money so why bother with it even if ticks off a few non-fanboys that look outside of iTunes once in awhile. Never mind that you cannot buy HD movies even at 720P on iTunes yet, only rent. Even then, I could not rent the so-so Indiana Jones Crystal Skull movie on my AppleTV for reasons unknown, only in SD and only after over 30 days from when the DVD was released.

And while some of you might not be able to tell a DVD from a Blu-ray disc on your 24" monitors at 12 feet away, it's near earth shattering noticeable on a 93" screen at 8 feet, even with a 720P projector (and even with an ATV 720P HD rental for that matter; both look leaps and bounds better than DVD). That same projector/screen combo I bought for over $2000 a year and a half ago can now be had for around $1200 total, maybe less, which is about the same as a so-so brand 48" flat-screen. It simply requires lower room lighting and slightly more initial set-up time.

If I understand this correctly, the TV Setting of 1080P means the AppleTV will UP-CONVERT to 1080P, Right? If so, why can't it support full HD as the input source?

Thanks,

AppleTV has two major problems. One is its hardware isn't really up to the task of decoding 1080P video. It only has a 1GHz processor off the Pentium M line, if I remember correctly and so compression would have to be light to even hope for it to work. The other problem is bandwidth in delivering movies. Apple is mostly interested in selling you stuff. They don't care about you encoding your own stuff and don't support it. They don't support 3rd party services unless they have a deal with them (e.g. You Tube) or we'd have official support for Boxee or any of its derivative sources by now (like Hulu). The amount of bandwidth needed to transfer a 1080P movie (even highly compressed, which is probably a non-option for today's ATV hardware) is pretty high. With a 5Mbit connection, I can just barely watch a 720P compressed movie in near real time (1-2 minute delay on average before it says I can start watching). With 1080P, I'd probably have to wait for 1/3 or more of the movie to download before I could even hope to start watching it and that's assuming it isn't constantly breaking up due to a lack of processing power to handle it.

Really, 720P HD movies look pretty darn good on my 93" screen at a mere 8 feet (better than anything on cable including HDNet, which is by far cable's best HD station in terms of quality). I really don't see a strong need for 1080P unless you have much larger screen sizes. I really do think most people simply have this "bigger is better" notion of numbers in their head. And sure if you have a 200" screen at 12 feet even, I fully understand why you'd want 1080P and I certainly would want it for actually BUYING movies (archiving). But for rentals, the vast majority of people out there should be happy with Apple's quality for HD movies. But the bigger is better notion means even people with 20" monitors won't be happy because they have it in their mind that 1080P is where it's at. I'm sure Sony loves that notion, though.

Even if future ATV hardware makes 1080P a breeze and you don't mind longer downloads or assume the average Internet connection will improve in the next few years, it'll create yet ANOTHER problem in that 1080P movies would be completely incompatible with current ATV hardware, resulting in the need to carry every HD movie rental TWICE *or* abandon the entire current ATV user base. Maybe Apple should have planned ahead a little better and included beefier hardware from the start. I'm sure they were thinking cost advantage at the time, but technology things and prices change quickly whereas video standards like 1080P will probably be around for a LONG time.
 
To expand on your question does this also mean that the ATV should be set to 720p on that menu even tho your TV may have 1080p? I was wondering about that. I have switched back and forth a few times from 720 to 1080 and streamed a movie. I don't see any difference in the picture quality.

.

I really do not know. However, with my "cable box" it is better for me to use the highest posible setting (1080I) so that my TV does not keep switching modes. If I allow all settings in the cable box you can see a major change between going from an HD Channel to s SD Channel. Not sure if this has anything to do with HDMI or my TV or ???.
 
To expand on your question does this also mean that the ATV should be set to 720p on that menu even tho your TV may have 1080p? I was wondering about that. I have switched back and forth a few times from 720 to 1080 and streamed a movie. I don't see any difference in the picture quality.

Upscaling to 1080p and being able to playback at 1080p are completely different. Being able to playback 1080p is very processor intensive. However, upscaling it to 1080p just means it'll be able to output any source (up to 720p) to resolution.

No, you don't have to switch between 720p and 1080p for your Apple TV - it won't affect the quality at all. Same scenario: switching your Mac's resolution isn't going to change the video playback quality (unless of course you choose a screen resolution lower than the video resolution which would result in downscaling).
 
The no mainstream bit is total bologna
Fair enough statement .... so then we would conclude that you prove it here ...
And while some of you might not be able to tell a DVD from a Blu-ray disc on your 24" monitors at 12 feet away, it's near earth shattering noticeable on a 93" screen at 8 feet, even with a 720P projector (and even with an ATV 720P HD rental for that matter; both look leaps and bounds better than DVD).
93" screen at 8 feet away ... very mainstream


its hardware isn't really up to the task of decoding 1080P video. It only has a 1GHz processor off the Pentium M line, if I remember correctly and so compression would have to be light to even hope for it to work.
... And you really think they are decoding even 720p with that cpu alone ? I think not, just ask the xmbc and boxee devs.
Really, 720P HD movies look pretty darn good on my 93" screen at a mere 8 feet (better than anything on cable including HDNet, which is by far cable's best HD station in terms of quality). I really don't see a strong need for 1080P unless you have much larger screen sizes. I really do think most people simply have this "bigger is better" notion of numbers in their head. And sure if you have a 200" screen at 12 feet even, I fully understand why you'd want 1080P and I certainly would want it for actually BUYING movies (archiving).
Sooo I gotta ask , the point of your original argument I quoted above is .... ?
 
Maybe Apple should have planned ahead a little better and included beefier hardware from the start. I'm sure they were thinking cost advantage at the time, but technology things and prices change quickly whereas video standards like 1080P will probably be around for a LONG time.
Ever feel the top of your atv with the "weak" components inside ?
Toss in even a 2.16 intel c2d and you would have the China Syndrome.
In fact, the existing 1Ghz pentium m in the atv is reportedly underclocked for exactly that thermal reason. As with all things, there is a balance between function and form.
 
If I understand this correctly, the TV Setting of 1080P means the AppleTV will UP-CONVERT to 1080P, Right? If so, why can't it support full HD as the input source?

Because there is a big difference in terms of performance between upscaling to 1080p and playing back files at 1080p.

Your $50 up-scaling DVD player can output 1080p, but it doesn't have the horsepower to play back Blu-ray discs (even if it had a Blu-ray drive).

Same thing.

To expand on your question does this also mean that the ATV should be set to 720p on that menu even tho your TV may have 1080p? I was wondering about that. I have switched back and forth a few times from 720 to 1080 and streamed a movie. I don't see any difference in the picture quality.

That's because either your 1080p HDTV is so good at upscaling you can't tell the difference or your HDTV is 720p. You should at least be able to tell the difference in terms of menu/text clarity.

If you have a 1080p HDTV, set the Apple TV output to 1080p
If you have a 720p/1080i HDTV, set the Apple TV output to 720p.
If you have a 480i/1080i HDTV, set the Apple TV output to 1080i.
If you have a 480p EDTV, set the Apple TV output to 480p.*
If you have a 480i TV, set the Apple TV output to 480i.*

If your PAL, substitute 576 for 480. :)

* This resolution is unsupported by Apple. Your EDTV or TV needs to either be 16:9 or have a "widescreen mode" feature.
 
feedback

wow,

did not think it would kick off this much discussion :)

I can see the argument about 720p and 1080p. FIVES Gadget show in the UK did a side by side comparision of the Apple TV and a blu-ray player.

They had the same TV, HDMI cable and watched the same movie, I am legend.

The Blu-ray won but only just. The one thing that let the Apple TV down is that it took 4 hours for the film to start playing. However they did not say what connection speed they had which I feel was unfair as people may assume that 4 hours is how long it would take for everyone.

Regardless of quality I just feel Apple TV and iTunes as it content source which legal is the only source if we leave out ripping DVD etc. Is poor value for money when you can get a blu-ray player for less or a PS3 which will do media streaming. And there are blu-ray disc rental packages that are better than value than renting movies from iTunes at £4.49 a pop for a HD version.

I have only ever rented 1 movie on my Mac at full price and a few of the 99p offerings. I would like to rent HD movies but can't on my Mac.

I also can't play blu-ray dvd on my Mac. (only if I boot Windows!!)

Apple for me need to push the price of movies down, even better have a subscription for their hobby to work.
 
Fair enough statement .... so then we would conclude that you prove it here ...

93" screen at 8 feet away ... very mainstream

I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense to me what-so-ever. There is no point made that I can see and no argument given, only hard to comprehend comments. You seem stuck on some strange idea about how close you should sit to an HDTV. "Mainstream" would be 32 inch set, BTW. Let me know when you get a 93" one and we'll talk.

Ever feel the top of your atv with the "weak" components inside ?
Toss in even a 2.16 intel c2d and you would have the China Syndrome.
In fact, the existing 1Ghz pentium m in the atv is reportedly underclocked for exactly that thermal reason. As with all things, there is a balance between function and form.

Ever hear of using a larger case so it doesn't get that hot? The thing is unnecessarily small. It could be the size of a rack-mounted CD player and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me. It's going on an equipment rack no matter what anyway. But Steve Jobs seems obsessed with thin boxy shapes for some bizarre reason. Maybe instead of a so-called 'balance' between form and function, function should take priority and form should follow. Who wants something that doesn't work right or doesn't work as well as it could have because Steve wants it to look like miniaturized pizza box? The same could be said of the Mac Mini and the iMac too. A little larger size would provide much faster speeds and larger storage sizes. They would still be pretty small, but oh so much nicer.
 
I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense to me what-so-ever. There is no point made that I can see and no argument given, only hard to comprehend comments. You seem stuck on some strange idea about how close you should sit to an HDTV. "Mainstream" would be 32 inch set, BTW. Let me know when you get a 93" one and we'll talk.
My fault, the impression I got was you were repudiating a previous posters contention that 1080p was not mainstream. To me it looked like you were making the argument that 1080p is mainstream, and then went on to illustrate what a difference it makes on your totally *huge* projector setup. I was merely pointing out that I did not think your massive setup was mainstream.

Mea Culpa

Ever hear of using a larger case so it doesn't get that hot? The thing is unnecessarily small. It could be the size of a rack-mounted CD player and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me. It's going on an equipment rack no matter what anyway.
Maybe, imho I still think you would need a fan setup >= an mbp, and personally I would not want those fans screaming away in my entertainment center. But no matter, I would wager Jobs and Co. do not come here looking for advice anyway. :)
 
I really do not know. However, with my "cable box" it is better for me to use the highest posible setting (1080I) so that my TV does not keep switching modes. If I allow all settings in the cable box you can see a major change between going from an HD Channel to s SD Channel. Not sure if this has anything to do with HDMI or my TV or ???.

Upscaling to 1080p and being able to playback at 1080p are completely different. Being able to playback 1080p is very processor intensive. However, upscaling it to 1080p just means it'll be able to output any source (up to 720p) to resolution.

No, you don't have to switch between 720p and 1080p for your Apple TV - it won't affect the quality at all. Same scenario: switching your Mac's resolution isn't going to change the video playback quality (unless of course you choose a screen resolution lower than the video resolution which would result in downscaling).

That's because either your 1080p HDTV is so good at upscaling you can't tell the difference or your HDTV is 720p. You should at least be able to tell the difference in terms of menu/text clarity.

If you have a 1080p HDTV, set the Apple TV output to 1080p
If you have a 720p/1080i HDTV, set the Apple TV output to 720p.
If you have a 480i/1080i HDTV, set the Apple TV output to 1080i.
If you have a 480p EDTV, set the Apple TV output to 480p.*
If you have a 480i TV, set the Apple TV output to 480i.*

If your PAL, substitute 576 for 480. :)

* This resolution is unsupported by Apple. Your EDTV or TV needs to either be 16:9 or have a "widescreen mode" feature.

Thanks for the replies, it has helped me understand things better.

The menus do seem to look a little more crisp when changing the ATV setting to 1080p however the movies I watch are the same quality. I can't see any difference when playing a movie so I have just kept the ATV setting on 1080p. (I'm using a 52' LCD TV 1080p) connected via HDMI cable.

ATV is working great so far and I have no complaints at all. It's nice to have all my multi-media in one place yet have several access points.


Again thanks for the help.
 
I've talked to so many people that have gotten Blu-Ray and/or HDTVs in general and tell me they can't tell or can barely tell the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray OR SD television stations and HD ones. This is on 30-48 inch flat screens.

That is so wrong!!

If you friends can't distinguish from DVD and Blueray or SD and HD content, they have a cheapy hdtv television or are seeing the wrong channels thinking that are HD but are only SD.

I have a 42" sony bravia 2 with motionflow 100hz and I note the very diference between SD and HD, blueRay and Dvd and 720p e 1080p (this one specially in action scenes).

For a true HD experience Apple Tv as to support 1080p and you have to buy a good full HDTV (advise 40w4500 ou serie z from sony)!!! Or apple tv isn't a full HD machine....
 
For a true HD experience Apple Tv as to support 1080p and you have to buy a good full HDTV (advise 40w4500 ou serie z from sony)!!! Or apple tv isn't a full HD machine....

I though true HD was 4k. ;)
 

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I'd take a progressive signal (720p) over an interlaced one (1080i) any day, but that's just my opinion.

I'd take the 1080i any day. My TV knows how to deinterlace, and there's enough information in 1080i60 to put a 24 fps film source back together perfectly. My TV scales well too, but there's no such thing as perfect scaling.
 
Here's a chart about proper distance....seems like you are sitting too close for comfort..

Good post on the resolution/distance chart.
I've quoted that to many people.
My 42" 720p HDTV in the 1st floor family room works fine at our seating viewing distance.

I just finished my basement Home Theatre 130" DIY 2.35:1 curved screen, seating at 10'6" and 16'6", and have been on the fencepost about AppleTV, I'd really like to go with it with full 1080p support....
(carpeting install is over xmas break)
IMG_0324.JPG
IMG_0376.JPG
 
Good post on the resolution/distance chart.
I've quoted that to many people.
My 42" 720p HDTV in the 1st floor family room works fine at our seating viewing distance.

I just finished my basement Home Theatre 130" DIY 2.35:1 curved screen, seating at 10'6" and 16'6", and have been on the fencepost about AppleTV, I'd really like to go with it with full 1080p support....
(carpeting install is over xmas break)
IMG_0324.JPG
IMG_0376.JPG



nice setup....you have any sites that you used for research on benefits of the curved screens? I never heard much about it. What do you have for cable? digital/HD?
 
What AppleTV DOES need is more features (without having to hack it). It SHOULD have an internet browser and for goodness sake, it's about time they added a visualizer! Having to watch photo slideshows during music and nothing else SUCKS.

I agree with the people bemoaning the lack of a subscription feature. I have almost ZERO desire to 'own' television shows. But if there were a monthly fee to watch unlimited tv shows or better yet movies, I'd jump on board assuming it was reasonable. At bare minimum, they should offer a rental option for TV shows. I don't want to own, let alone store them!

I agree with that! A monthly fee for renting TV shows (World wide) I'd scrap my Pay TV rental for something like that.
I NEVER buy films and I'd never pay 3€ for a 20 Min. TV show I don't want to own!
But a monthly fee for renting TV shows and Movies would be good.
The problem is in Europe there are still no Movie sales and the TV shows are too expensive.
:(

But I still love my Apple TV!
 
I have a 1080p 52 inch tv that has never seen a 1080p signal. I wonder one thing - everything is gets, it needs to convert to 1080p. Doesn't this alone effect picture quality?
 
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