Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
This isn't solely about green/blue bubbles.

Apple claims you have to do everything the Apple way because of security.
Apple claims the best choices for them is based on security.
Yet choosing to send messages to android completely unencrypted - with the option to use RCS on the table for years - is plain flat out hypocrisy.

It's not based upon stigma, it's based upon practical choice. The theme and thread here is that SMS messaging is fundamentally tied to iMessages and coupled, IOS users can't decouple it and Apple chooses the worst and most unsecure process for using it, while at the same time touting the need to do things the Apple way based upon security and thinking on behalf of the end user.

Additionally, that's only one of the many reasons, but the same basic thread is there amongst the other reason. Can't use another payment system? Security. Can't use web apps? Security. Seems like a convenient umbrella, not a real and practical one, considering that this isn't the same even within the Apple ecosystem.

This is not what it's about. This is an *antitrust* case which is attempting to establish that Apple is exploiting monopoly pricing power by using illegal tactics. The arguments in the case such as green bubbles, Apple Watch compatibility, etc are trying to establish violations of the elements. What you're citing, Apple talking about security, is more consistent with false advertising not antitrust and is not the reason why the DOJ is talking about green bubbles or the other arguments.
 
Last edited:
Do you know anyone who has 'insisted' an Android move to iPhone? So are you saying is that it’s not an Android problem and it’s not really an iPhone problem? Other than iPhone users don't have the same experience.

Should the same thing happen with other industries? The United States is a class society. It relies and thrives (particularly those in government) on these classes. What is different in this case?

If they want to talk about the costs of products, then why aren’t they attacking Big Pharmaceuticals on the same principals?

(just questions or musings, not disputing you)


Thats what it’s all about.
Luckily for me, I do not have idiots in my circle. But you can google "green bubble shaming" to learn about the isuue (just kidding, I am pretty sure you know about it well). Comparisons to other industries are pointless because all industries are very different. DOJ is watching big pharma but the industry absolutely doesn't have the same issue as smartphone business. You have dozens and dozens of pharma companies competing with each other. The largest pharma companies do not take 30% fee for every pill sold by a smaller company.
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: UliBaer and 3530025
No it’s android users. They feel left out of chats lol. Meanwhile every country uses different apps.
How exactly do Android users feel left out? Oh, right, because obnoxious iPhone users haunt them. Android user would have no way of knowing about the iPhone user's issue with bubble colors unless the latter contacts the former about it.
 
It seems like DOJ has objection to the way Apple even breathes!

I’m surprised they’re not asking Apple to change the name to Zapple as other companies don’t get a chance to top the alphabetical list!
As well as the EU, Japan, the UK, Australia, and many more countries. Maybe Apple is breathing wrong :)
 
  • Love
Reactions: 3530025
Luckily for me, I do not have idiots in my circle. But you can google "green bubble shaming" to learn about the isuue (just kidding, I am pretty sure you know about it well). Comparisons to other industries are pointless because all industries are very different. DOJ is watching big pharma but the industry absolutely doesn't have the same issue as smartphone business. You have dozens and dozens of pharma companies competing with each other. The largest pharma companies do not take 30% fee for every pill sold by a smaller company.
How are comparisons with other industries pointless. I thought you said they were applying the law. Creating a divide between classes is the same. Many Android phones are cheaper, and sure they can’t afford the iPhone and thus don’t have access to the features.

Rich people can afford 'life saving drugs' whereas less rich people cannot. And the DoJ are concerned about people being upset by the colour of a bubble?
 
just because he's such a popular guy here, Gurman's PowerOn newsletter from yesterday:

That is the Apple shill Gurman there. He is no legal expert.


Hagens Berman previously secured a combined $550 million in settlements from Apple in separate cases related to its ebook pricing and app store policies.
A 2022 study, opens new tab by a University of Buffalo law school professor found that private antitrust class actions can sometimes go farther than government cases, expanding "the scope of wrongdoing, the amount of recovery, or the number of defendants involved."

A judge in February ruled that Apple must face a class action on behalf of millions of consumers claiming it monopolized the market for iPhone apps. Apple denies the claims.

Whereas, legal experts have claimed otherwise.


 
This is going to get very interesting in the coming years. While I am in full support of government hampering megacorps dominance, they might need to think very carefully about how they are going to achieve their goal. What DoJ presents so far doesn’t feel like it’s holding water in some accusations, which could lead to trouble obtaining a favourable court outcome.

Nevertheless, here it goes. If you are too successful, people will want to know why and investigate you.

With that being said, given other historical cases we are running today, I’m skeptical of the US justice system. Let’s see how this pans out.

“DOJ has stepped back from the details and simply asked and answered the question, what are all these about?” says John Kwoka, professor of economics at Northeastern University who recently served as chief economist to FTC Chair Lina Khan. “The merit of looking at it that way is that it frames it in a way that makes clear the core problem.”


The accumulated experience shows up in the complaint, according to antitrust experts who spoke with The Verge about the complaint filed Thursday accusing Apple of violating antitrust law. The DOJ describes a sweeping arc of behaviors by Apple, arguing that it adds up to a pattern of illegal monopoly maintenance. Rather than focusing on two or three illegal acts, the complaint alleges that Apple engages in a pattern of behaviors that further entrench consumers into their ecosystem and make it harder to switch, even in the face of high prices and degraded quality.


However, it is still an uphill battle for the DOJ.
 
“DOJ has stepped back from the details and simply asked and answered the question, what are all these about?” says John Kwoka, professor of economics at Northeastern University who recently served as chief economist to FTC Chair Lina Khan. “The merit of looking at it that way is that it frames it in a way that makes clear the core problem.”


The accumulated experience shows up in the complaint, according to antitrust experts who spoke with The Verge about the complaint filed Thursday accusing Apple of violating antitrust law. The DOJ describes a sweeping arc of behaviors by Apple, arguing that it adds up to a pattern of illegal monopoly maintenance. Rather than focusing on two or three illegal acts, the complaint alleges that Apple engages in a pattern of behaviors that further entrench consumers into their ecosystem and make it harder to switch, even in the face of high prices and degraded quality.


However, it is still an uphill battle for the DOJ.
Those here is Australia can relate to this.

“It's the Vibe your honor. It’s the Vibe".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Beautyspin
Virtually all the reporting on this case states that it "will take years." This is not necessarily true. Apple may succeed quickly with a motion to dismiss. Apple has won at least one previous antitrust lawsuit regarding iOS with a motion to dismiss.
I doubt if it was by DOJ or FTC. It is from Epic, I believe. DOJ is not making the same mistake that Epic did.
 
That’s a lot of hot air. Having a healthy and successful business depends on setting appropriate profit margins just as much as it does creating great products and doing good marketing. No one was ever forced into buying AirTags, smart watches or AirPods. These are useful accessories if you buy an iPhone. Since when are businesses forced to develop features in their products to use for infinite other platforms? It doesn’t make sense…
If you have an iPhone, you can only buy Airtags. That is literally what the lawsuit is about. (though it does not mention Airtags specifically).

Makers of hardware devices, like smart-tracker maker Tile, have long complained that Apple has restricted the ways in which they can work with the iPhone's sensors while developing competing products that have greater access. Apple began selling AirTags - which can be attached to items like car keys to help users find them when they are lost - several years after Tile had been selling a similar product.

 
If they’re not a monopolist then where is the antitrust violation? This cease seems very weak to me, although I am not a lawyer. Even if you believe everything Apple did that they complained about was bad for consumers (which I disagree with), that doesn’t make it illegal. Companies being s***ty is nor a violation of the Sherman Act. Like, printer companies charging outrageous ink prices sucks but it’s not an antitrust issue. They go on and on about all the supposedly monopolistic things Apple did but their market definition- “performance smartphones“- seems weak to me.
Everything cited in the case is true, but the materials as to whether it is harmful or not is the actual basis of the case and we're not here to jury it. Agree or not, it's still been a major thorn for consumers even on this forum, as the vitriol toward Android is intense, and not warranted, but should count for something.

If this were literally any other market, it would be obvious. Microsoft saying everything on Windows has to be purchased through the Microsoft store and Microsoft taking a 30% cut of everything. ... yeah, there wouldn't be a lot of argument that this is bad. But apple does it? On IOS? Oh, that's ok. Even if they don't do it on a Mac.

And understand my words from my post (not quoted here) are the important bits -- you don't have to be declared a monopoly to be found engaging in monopolistic behavior, and that alone can incite change. Apple runs the app store and all payment processes as a monopolist on the platform. There is no choice on the platform. Every time this is brought up, people say "you do have a choice, buy Android" but that goes to the fundamental reason Spotify had an issue: on the platform they would be required to raise prices to compete fairly with the % apple fee, and compete against Apple Music. That's the essence of monopolistic behavior, just one example of many that do exist.

Bundling SMS into iMessage is monopolistic behavior as well. iMessage is a great product! But damn, citing history software bundling is freaking dangerous and limiting consumer choice is awful -- it's inherently what broke MS in the naughts. Yes, consumers have choices in apps, but Apple overlaid their product on top of a standard. It's not like they offered iMessage standalone with no SMS integration. Or maybe offered iMessage as an app on Android. That was actually considered at one point by apple (some proof out there somewhere in an internal exposed doc) but they decided against it to keep market share. Predatory, exclusionary, monopolistic behavior.

If iMessage was entirely separated from SMS there wouldn't be a factor at all. It's the only gateway short of 3rd party to communicate. It -was- the standard for a long time. And don't say that consumers have choice -- Microsoft went to the floor and nearly got split up over the "bundling" of IE back in the day, and there were choices there too, along with literally anything else you could download, with lots of stores, lots of options.

And this was just talking about the App store, payment systems, and SMS. There's quite a bit more in this thing. It's ok to not agree with it, I respect it, but it's not like this is not true or factual. The only real issue at hand is, does it hurt consumers -- and consumers doesn't necessarily mean only Apple fans.

I'm a fan of Apple, IOS and Android. This isn't or shouldn't be territorial. But the business that Apple is doing is not vanity, it's not favoritism, it's not pride. It's simply bad business - what they are doing is limiting consumers and developers to incentivize money for Apple. It's hard to really ignore that when you consider the profit margins on IOS for Apple compared to Mac, and how little the same principles being used for IOS aren't used there. Hypocrisy doesn't make for a great legal case.
 
Several legal experts are praising the lawsuit for being very effective though.


It is amazing how pervasive the Woke Mind disease has become! Feelings over Facts is ridiculous! If a company makes you feel a certain way, that is not illegal! Imagine the precedent that would send to every company! The Supreme Court is very conservative too! It's Facts over Feelings!
 
Whew this was certainly a read. I’m all for rebalancing anti competitive markets/products, but this suit is all over the place.

The super apps, messaging, smart watch, and privacy sections were really interesting.
Well, that seems to be the strength of the lawsuit.

According to the Verge,

"The DOJ describes a sweeping arc of behaviors by Apple, arguing that it adds up to a pattern of illegal monopoly maintenance. Rather than focusing on two or three illegal acts."

This shows a pattern that Apple uses for monopoly maintenance. The focus of the suit is not monopoly, but monopoly maintenance and this suit clearly shows it.
 
I must admit there have been times I've wanted to try another device like a Samsung Galaxy Fold but the stickiness of the Apple ecosystem stopped me from doing so—namely iMessage and to a lesser extent my Apple Watch.

I think part of the DoJ's claims do hold merit but not all of it. For example, blaming Apple for the demise of Amazon's Fire Phone is ridiculous and blaming Apple for users having difficulty learning Android because it's different to Apples iOS UI is laughably misguided.

But iMessage being restricted to Apple products is a lock-in technique and that's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of Apple themselves as we saw in their internal emails as part of the EPIC v Apple case, they specifically chose not to bring iMessage to Android because they were afraid parents would buy their children cheap Android phones that they could use iMessage on and that would create Android consumers from a young age who may stick with that platform throughout their lives. Apple executives said this amongst each other, it's damning and the DoJ will point it out.

For the Apple Watch I can sort of see the argument, however not allowing other companies' smartwatches to integrate with the iPhone so you have to buy the Apple Watch is anti-competitive. Think about this with headphones, we have Bluetooth to make a standard audio interface so you can use whichever wireless headphones you like. But with your Watch, you're incredibly limited, you cannot do anything near to what an Apple Watch can accomplish when connected to an iPhone and that is by design to limit competition to the Watch and drive sales of the Watch and the iPhone by having users who like one or the other being forced to buy both.

There are certainly many merits in this case and I'm not worried about Apple because if they do lose this (and I suspect they'll lose some of the points but not all of them) they will be stronger for it. I'm sure we'd all love custom watch faces but it hasn't happened, why? because they have no imperative to do it when the only watch that works properly with the iPhone is the Apple Watch, there's no competition for your wrist so why push boundaries? why make a watch face store and hire watch face moderators when you can just not do that and still have the #1 selling watch in the world regardless? This is what an Apple loss could mean for us, innovation to make their products better on their merit and not just because it's the only one you can use with their phone.

Another good result from this would be them allowing full unfettered sideloading. Just like how macOS has it. This would allow for competing stores with better pricing for consumers better splits for developers and also more innovative apps. I'm sure many would like a classic game emulator or a web browser that uses a different rendering engine than Safari. There are many things side loading would enable and that doesn't diminish what the iPhone offers, it would simply broaden its appeal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dk001
It is amazing how pervasive the Woke Mind disease has become! Feelings over Facts is ridiculous! If a company makes you feel a certain way, that is not illegal! Imagine the precedent that would send to every company! The Supreme Court is very conservative too! It's Facts over Feelings!
I am not able to understand. What Feelings over facts that the suit talk about? Can you please clarify?
 
I just had a News+ Popup come up, where here in Australia our Senate is investigating people having "loyalty cards" for its 2 biggest supermarkets. Apparently having data about what people buy is the issue.

It seems governments don’t actually want competition where someone is more competitive. Be successful, just not too successful.
 
Because you're a popular app. It is the price of admission to have that responsibility. The popular apps link people together and these links should not be limited to one or two platforms.
Wrong. . . branding and exclusivity matters. For example, some brands will never be sold at Costco or Walmart.
And, commerce works based on choice; not usually coercion. That is like forcing some proprietary games to be made available on all platforms. World does not and should not work that way.
 
How are comparisons with other industries pointless. I thought you said they were applying the law. Creating a divide between classes is the same. Many Android phones are cheaper, and sure they can’t afford the iPhone and thus don’t have access to the features.

Rich people can afford 'life saving drugs' whereas less rich people cannot. And the DoJ are concerned about people being upset by the colour of a bubble?
The most expensive phones (by far) are Android phones. iPhone users represent middle class. Same goes for Mac users.
 
  • Love
  • Disagree
Reactions: dk001 and wilhoitm
Well, that seems to be the strength of the lawsuit.

According to the Verge,

"The DOJ describes a sweeping arc of behaviors by Apple, arguing that it adds up to a pattern of illegal monopoly maintenance. Rather than focusing on two or three illegal acts."

This shows a pattern that Apple uses for monopoly maintenance. The focus of the suit is not monopoly, but monopoly maintenance and this suit clearly shows it.
It’s a lawsuit. Nothing is proven. There will likely be a trial & then we’ll see where we go from there. Currently the government has constructed a story they like to color Apple as a bad actor. Ultimately the government wants all the data on your iPhone. This is their way to get to that end. Most of our Supreme Court justices don’t believe that the data on your iPhone should be private, so the future looks dim. 🤬
 
This case is so incredibly weak.

It won't get past the "monopoly" question, and then everything goes away. Which is a shame, because I'd like to see the silly arguments the DOJ would try to make about how Apple uses SMS and green bubbles.

But this case is going nowhere.
You would certainly wish.

 
Wrong. . . branding and exclusivity matters. For example, some brands will never be sold at Costco or Walmart.
And, commerce works based on choice; not usually coercion. That is like forcing some proprietary games to be made available on all platforms. World does not and should not work that way.
There's a lot of stores out there and products have many ways to reach consumers. For smartphones there's essentially only Apple and Google-android in North America.

Games should be available on all platforms.
 
Everything cited in the case is true, but the materials as to whether it is harmful or not is the actual basis of the case and we're not here to jury it. Agree or not, it's still been a major thorn for consumers even on this forum, as the vitriol toward Android is intense, and not warranted, but should count for something.

If this were literally any other market, it would be obvious. Microsoft saying everything on Windows has to be purchased through the Microsoft store and Microsoft taking a 30% cut of everything. ... yeah, there wouldn't be a lot of argument that this is bad. But apple does it? On IOS? Oh, that's ok. Even if they don't do it on a Mac.

And understand my words from my post (not quoted here) are the important bits -- you don't have to be declared a monopoly to be found engaging in monopolistic behavior, and that alone can incite change. Apple runs the app store and all payment processes as a monopolist on the platform. There is no choice on the platform. Every time this is brought up, people say "you do have a choice, buy Android" but that goes to the fundamental reason Spotify had an issue: on the platform they would be required to raise prices to compete fairly with the % apple fee, and compete against Apple Music. That's the essence of monopolistic behavior, just one example of many that do exist.

Bundling SMS into iMessage is monopolistic behavior as well. iMessage is a great product! But damn, citing history software bundling is freaking dangerous and limiting consumer choice is awful -- it's inherently what broke MS in the naughts. Yes, consumers have choices in apps, but Apple overlaid their product on top of a standard. It's not like they offered iMessage standalone with no SMS integration. Or maybe offered iMessage as an app on Android. That was actually considered at one point by apple (some proof out there somewhere in an internal exposed doc) but they decided against it to keep market share. Predatory, exclusionary, monopolistic behavior.

If iMessage was entirely separated from SMS there wouldn't be a factor at all. It's the only gateway short of 3rd party to communicate. It -was- the standard for a long time. And don't say that consumers have choice -- Microsoft went to the floor and nearly got split up over the "bundling" of IE back in the day, and there were choices there too, along with literally anything else you could download, with lots of stores, lots of options.

And this was just talking about the App store, payment systems, and SMS. There's quite a bit more in this thing. It's ok to not agree with it, I respect it, but it's not like this is not true or factual. The only real issue at hand is, does it hurt consumers -- and consumers doesn't necessarily mean only Apple fans.

I'm a fan of Apple, IOS and Android. This isn't or shouldn't be territorial. But the business that Apple is doing is not vanity, it's not favoritism, it's not pride. It's simply bad business - what they are doing is limiting consumers and developers to incentivize money for Apple. It's hard to really ignore that when you consider the profit margins on IOS for Apple compared to Mac, and how little the same principles being used for IOS aren't used there. Hypocrisy doesn't make for a great legal case.

Everything cited in the case is NOT true, that has to be proven in a court of law.
I am not able to understand. What Feelings over facts that the suit talk about? Can you please clarify?

To help you to understand the DOJ cannot just make up things that they think makes Apple a Monopoly, those things have to be proven! Just because you feel Apple is a monopoly does not mean they actually are one! Here are some examples...

  • Apple slowed down innovation on ‌iPhone‌ to extract revenue from customers using subscriptions and cloud services. [Contradicts the accusation below]
  • Powerful, expensive hardware is unnecessary if consumers can play games through cloud streaming apps. [Contradicts the accusation above and also iPhones are not just used for games.]
  • Apple uses its "rapidly expanding" role as a TV and movie producer to control content and affect the "flow of speech." [ This could be true for almost any media company! This is a feelings argument! Also, AppleTV+ is extremely small almost minuscule compared to Netflix. ]
  • Non-iPhone users experience "social stigma, exclusion, and blame" for "breaking" chats with where other participants own iPhones. This is "particularly powerful" for teenagers, and "social pressure" causes teens to switch to ‌iPhone‌. [This is a feelings argument! This can apply to almost any luxury or high end brand! Are companies going to just all make the same product as mandated by the Government? ]
  • The DoJ blames Apple's market dominance for failed smartphones that include the Amazon Fire Phone and the Microsoft Windows Phone. [ This is a feelings argument. Every product is not a guaranteed winner and every product does not deserve a participation trophy. Consumers make choices, some products win and others lose based on their own merits! ]
 
Last edited:
It’s a lawsuit. Nothing is proven. There will likely be a trial & then we’ll see where we go from there. Currently the government has constructed a story they like to color Apple as a bad actor. Ultimately the government wants all the data on your iPhone. This is their way to get to that end. Most of our Supreme Court justices don’t believe that the data on your iPhone should be private, so the future looks dim. 🤬
Yep. Had a conversation with Judge Neil Gorsuch over that that very issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SFjohn
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.