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Apple's App Store, Safari, and iOS Officially Designated 'Gatekeepers' in EU
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The degree of difficulty is important to consider because Apple has no way of preventing companies from developing and releasing competitive operating systems. Palm, Nokia and Blackberry all had operating systems in 2007. Google had an OS in 2008. Microsoft had an OS in 2010. Amazon and Samsung had operating systems in 2014. Huawei had an OS in 2021. So it's clear that large tech companies CAN produce an OS...but getting it accepted by enough consumers to make it viable is another matter entirely. That makes a solid argument that the "gatekeeper" part is primarily driven by degree of difficulty. I'm not saying that tech companies can't do anti-competitive things or that anti-competitive things shouldn't be regulated by government. I just have a hard time seeing mobile OS as being a worse competitive environment than what already exists in other computing markets like desktop/laptop.
Arm is an independent company of which Acorn was also a founding member of. And VLSI, another American company, was also one of those founders too. VLSI… being the only ones that actually manufactured the chips through the 90s.
Acorn provided 12 whole employees. VLSI provided tools and manufacturing. Apple provided every single red cent that paid for their existence.
Yes… yes it does. That’s exactly what the term means. That’s why there’s a whole other term to describe markets that are regulated.
Again, you’re using hyperbole here. The streets aren’t actually paved in gold.
That was the last iteration of the company. It existed before that merging of resources, Apple even insisted it changed what the A stood for before it would invest
Except they're not the market leader and there is tons of innovation and competition on its platform.
Old enough to forget the specifics?
The Microsoft case had little to do with Apple's current situation. Microsoft had 95% share and was paying its partners not to install competitor's products. It wasn't simply bundling.
At this point, I'm interested in a discussion. That's why I came to this forum. And these regulations will certainly have a global impact.
I asked earlier, but is there anything in the DMA that prevents Apple from requiring review of non-App Store apps?
That’s the ONLY iteration of the company. The acronym - acronym, key word, not company - of “ARM” existed prior as the name of the chip used in the Archimedes. When the company was incorporated, its name was Advanced RISC Machines. It was done because Acorn continued to exist and would be a competitor to them… and they existed all the way until 2015. They didn’t want the name of a competitor in their project.
Requiring Apple to allow developers to use the App Store yet not pay through the App Store is free.
I have no issue requiring Apple to allow website based downloads, though this will increase viruses and hacking.
Anyone can make a new phone or a new OS.
But forcing Apple to allow developers to use the App Store for advertising and downloads and customer service but not paying for it isn’t right.
I more so than the Mac. This is why any argument against the idea of being able to side load an app on a mobile device is illogical because it flies in the face of 50 years of desktop computing paradigms.
Consumers also have a choice in the matter. Less than 5% of Android users ever bother to use an alternate app portal to the Play Store and this is where the most popular device manufacturer bakes one in as standard.
Most countries run with debt, it comes down to how it compares to each country’s GDP… 😉 Also the USA spends more on its military & defense than the next 9 largest countries spend in defense. Other western nations are happy about this, as they rely on the USA to backfill their own defense spending. 😮💨
Deepmind is down the road from me in London!
Christopher Strachey created the first computer program that could play a game in the 1950’s at the University of Manchester.
The computer was invented by Victorian innovator Charles Babbage.
So please explain to me that back when it was discovered that VW built/sold cars with incorrect (intentionally) emission control (aka Dieselgate), it took them less than a year to settle this in the US (some $5B if memory serves), but yet in Germany consumers still have to go to court in 2023 to get their rights? And the German government protected VW so that people wouldn't lose jobs? What they did was a criminal act and nothing happened to leadership ...
This forum is not ready for common sense responses like this.The problem is:
So the solution for both is simple: Just allow alternatives like they do on macOS. That's it. That's all they gotta do. A simple problem with a simple solution that Apple does not want to do as it means their app store monopoly is a *little* bit smaller.
- App distribution on iOS/iPadOS locked to a single app store that Apple controls with no other way to get apps, which under the Digital Markets Act (DMA) marks them as a gatekeeper and they must rectify this by allowing alternatives to the Apple App Store on iOS, similarly to how they do on macOS
- WebKit being the only web engine allowed on iOS. (Chrome and FireFox on iOS are just UI skins, as they're still forced to use WebKit which defeats the entire point of using Chrome or FireFox, as people want Chromium and FireFox Quantum, not WebKit) Remember when Microsoft got in trouble for pulling that stunt back in the 90s with United States of America vs Microsoft?
It's not just the EU. Japan also approved similar measures and they will be forcing Apple to allow alternative app distribution as well, and in Japan Apple has a landslide dominance over any other competitor there of almost 70%. Like it's not even close. You gonna tell Apple to stop selling their products there too when they have overwhelming market dominance?
Why? This change benefits consumers as now iOS would have competition in app distribution, and competition breeds innovation. The only people this doesn't benefit...is Apple. Curious. 🤔
You can just choose not to sideload you know. Just like on Android, sideloading is completely optional and can be turned on and off with a toggle in settings. You can stay with the Apple App Store and never touch any alternatives should you so choose to.
Yes adding alternatives to app distribution and other web engines on iOS and other proconsumer measures is a "power grab by the elites." I guess forcing Apple to switch to USB-C on the iPhone, a move millions have begged for, was also a power grab?
Just not the freedom to choose your browser or where you purchase your apps from. OK got it!
Btw. AI is neither A nor I, just a marketing buzzword for algorithms, methods, functions and automation of existing data on trained models.
Anyway, AI an US-wave?
Do you really think the future of "AI" will be based only on OpenAI or Midjouney?
Smaller companies just don't pee on all wheels for marketing reasons like the Amazon, Microsoft & Co. who sponsors OpenAI. So I could just ask you to strike OpenAI from the list, because it's sponsored by bigger and older American companies. There are plenty of "AI" development going on in the background around the world.
I would not call "AI" THE US-wave, just because OpenAI got up in the news.
Is ChatGPT Getting Worse?
A new study describes how some GPT-4 capabilities have degraded, though users could simply be figuring out the AI isn’t all that smart.
gizmodo.com
There are much more important AI development going on, e.g. in the Oncology area 😱, but yeah just things that matters, not lifestyle. I could flood you with non-US related German AI developments, but i better skip that.
To cite Wikipedia...
"The history of artificial intelligence (AI) began in antiquity, with myths, stories and rumors of artificial beings endowed with intelligence or consciousness by master craftsmen."
...at this time America didn't even exist.
"The seeds of modern AI were planted by philosophers who attempted to describe the process of human thinking as the mechanical manipulation of symbols. This work culminated in the invention of the programmable digital computer in the 1940s, a machine based on the abstract essence of mathematical reasoning. This device and the ideas behind it inspired a handful of scientists to begin seriously discussing the possibility of building an electronic brain."
VR really?
Common, Really VR?
Apple Vision ?🤣
Btw. Who discovered America?! *cough*
All US achievements belong to Italians
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Freedom includes the freedom to choose a platform where you don’t have to worry about those choices. I’d rather spend my mental energy on other things.
Well, ever heard of ASML (Netherlands/EU), Trumpf (Germany/EU) or Zeiss (Germany/EU)? I guess not.
ASML, a Dutch company, is crucial in the semiconductor industry, the largest supplier globally and the sole provider of extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV) machines, essential for advanced chip manufacturing. Without ASML's technology, there would be no EUV lithography, which is integral to Apple's silicon chips and other advanced.
ASML wouldn‘t be able to create this technology without Trumpf and Zeiss …
So without Europe, your whole world wouldn‘t exist - no iP15 for you, without Europe - you know?
I don’t mind different app distribution channels aside from the App Store being made available just as long as I, as a consumer, be protected from privacy breaches, malware and viruses, etc.
So that I don’t have to deal with worrying all those things just cause some other companies want to inject themselves into other companies’ ecosystems for financial benefit and other possible questionable benefits. This including the new danger that apps other iOS users have downloaded themselves may jeopardize me even when I chose not to.
So long EU can prevent that, I am good for other stores. Else, I think they need to rethink their strategy.
So that I don’t have to deal with worrying all those things just cause some other companies want to inject themselves into other companies’ ecosystems for financial benefit and other possible questionable benefits. This including the new danger that apps other iOS users have downloaded themselves may jeopardize me even when I chose not to.
So long EU can prevent that, I am good for other stores. Else, I think they need to rethink their strategy.
Sure it would exist, the magical Apple woodPhone with a tiny monkey inside doing the math.
OK. I think that we're likely both not antitrust or competition lawyers - I'm certainly not - so I'm not going to go through this point by point and pretend like I am.Except they're not the market leader and there is tons of innovation and competition on its platform.
Old enough to forget the specifics?
The Microsoft case had little to do with Apple's current situation. Microsoft had 95% share and was paying its partners not to install competitor's products. It wasn't simply bundling.
At this point, I'm interested in a discussion. That's why I came to this forum. And these regulations will certainly have a global impact.
I asked earlier, but is there anything in the DMA that prevents Apple from requiring review of non-App Store apps?
Not a cop out, it's just that these EU regulation have taken years to draft, get passed and move to enforcement by likely hundreds of lawyers and politicians - and I'm just a random person on an Apple forum.
So I'd rather talk about this in terms of 'mood music':
For the purposes of this forum/argument I think that people on this thread are either:
Pro regulation - believing that markets should be regulated to ensure fair competition at all times (which is why I was bringing up the MS IE antitrust i.e. as an example of this, rather than making an exact comparison), or
Anti-regulation - with the belief that success shouldn't be punished and the ultimate choice lies with consumers either using or not using a product, especially when there are clearly alternatives in the market (namely: a plethora of Android smartphones)
I fall into the former camp and you appear to be latter. And that's OK.
Let's just remember to come back to this thread in 2-5 years and I'm going to predict that these changes in the EU were good for the iPhone. We shall see
Software pirates and malware devs are salivating and rubbing their hands at the prospects of being able to free load on phones. You are doing to be their target regardless if you are an app developer or app user.
The absolute shocking this everyone in this thread is ignoring is this.
The ultra wealthy are absolutely sick of you people. They want to keep their wealth, hoard even more, and acquire every last grain of sand, every drop of water and every thought in your head.
They can't do that without breaking the security that you have been relying on for years now.
They need to know who is a threat to them. They are tired of people exposing their crimes and organizing protests.
So buying off EU politicians to destroy your phone's security is easy for them.
Buying UK politicians to destroy message encryption is easy for them.
They can afford it easily.
It's going to privacy, security, walled palaces and offshore islands for the ultra wealthy and their kids.
And nothing for you.
No privacy for you, no security for you, and they will make sure to squeeze every last drop of income from you while lying through their teeth that their 'robots will take your jobs'.
The absolute shocking this everyone in this thread is ignoring is this.
The ultra wealthy are absolutely sick of you people. They want to keep their wealth, hoard even more, and acquire every last grain of sand, every drop of water and every thought in your head.
They can't do that without breaking the security that you have been relying on for years now.
They need to know who is a threat to them. They are tired of people exposing their crimes and organizing protests.
So buying off EU politicians to destroy your phone's security is easy for them.
Buying UK politicians to destroy message encryption is easy for them.
They can afford it easily.
It's going to privacy, security, walled palaces and offshore islands for the ultra wealthy and their kids.
And nothing for you.
No privacy for you, no security for you, and they will make sure to squeeze every last drop of income from you while lying through their teeth that their 'robots will take your jobs'.
If only the world were black and white. I’m pro regulation for the most part. I’m against specific parts of this regulation because I don’t believe they will actually significantly increase competition. And they will be worse for me personally.OK. I think that we're likely both not antitrust or competition lawyers - I'm certainly not - so I'm not going to go through this point by point and pretend like I am.
Not a cop out, it's just that these EU regulation have taken years to draft, get passed and move to enforcement by likely hundreds of lawyers and politicians - and I'm just a random person on an Apple forum.
So I'd rather talk about this in terms of 'mood music':
For the purposes of this forum/argument I think that people on this thread are either:
Pro regulation - believing that markets should be regulated to ensure fair competition at all times (which is why I was bringing up the MS IE antitrust i.e. as an example of this, rather than making an exact comparison), or
Anti-regulation - with the belief that success shouldn't be punished and the ultimate choice lies with consumers either using or not using a product, especially when there are clearly alternatives in the market (namely: a plethora of Android smartphones)
I fall into the former camp and you appear to be latter. And that's OK.
Let's just remember to come back to this thread in 2-5 years and I'm going to predict that these changes in the EU were good for the iPhone. We shall see