Apple's App Store, Safari, and iOS Officially Designated 'Gatekeepers' in EU

[Gudi]

Here is a refresher:

Vote with your wallet.
Its that simple.
The EU is confused..

You are confused. We came up with a product, it's called the EU Single Market. Nobody is forced to do business here. It's just an offer. Go sell your stuff somewhere else, if you like it better there. Every single person gets a vote, either you compete in our market by our rules or you don't. YES or NO? Customers, workers, citizens − everyone decide for themselves where they want to live, work and shop. There are plenty of Youtube channels of Americans, who chose to live in Europe and explain the differences to their uninformed countrymen. Do your Brexit thingy, if you believe that a ban on pumping untreated sewage water into rivers is too much of restrictive regulation. We don't care! EU rules must appeal to Europeans, not anyone else in the world. In Ukraine people die for a chance to become EU citizens. So it ain't that bad from outside.

 

[BaldiMac]

It’s not "just a money grab", it's how antitrust laws and regulations are supposed to work. If the companies comply (as some already are), there is no money for EU.

Hah! I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the EU tries for years to tax a larger cut of Apple's revenue. Fails. And then comes back with legislation that targets them specifically. While also targeting exclusively non-EU companies with additional regulations in the same law.

This isn't antitrust. The metrics for gatekeeper status are NOT about market dominance. They don't consider market share. The DMA is about protectionism. Taking profits from foreign companies to keep more (taxable) revenue in the EU.

 

[Gudi]

Twitter doesn't have more than one name, the name is changing (has changed) from Twitter to X. Meta doesn’t have more than one name. Meta is the parent company of Facebook. Same with Google. Alphabet is the parent company of Google. It’s similar to Volkswagen being the parent company of Bentley, SAP being the parent company of Signavio, etc.

It's not similar. X, Meta and Alphabet are all fantasy names invented to signal to investors, that there is another huge growth story for the stock other than its core business. If the Volkswagen Group renames itself to Mover&Shaker then it would be a similar situation. But naming a car company after its largest brand is very Toyota of them.

 

[bluecoast]

If it is "Open enough" then the alternative stores will fall by the wayside, right? Why would anyone want to go to another store that will not be any more open to make a difference (as according to you App Store is already open enough). Problem will be solved on its own.

Fortunately, the EU government works for the people, not corporates. So, they are doing what they think is good for people. If you think it is bad for Apple, it does not have to be if Apple had cared enough to bring changes to its policies and become more consumer friendly. For example, what exactly is Apple trying to achieve by insisting on Webkit for all browsers?

I think they’re working for European businesses too, as europe was asleep at the wheel when it came to i

In my experience, in most cases app pricing is based on maximizing revenue, not gross margins. If you make more revenue at $8 than $10, then you should price your app at $8 regardless of the store's cut.


Our app will inevitably be pirated. It happens on every other platform other than iOS. Heck, we don't even offer an Android app, and we still have to deal with support requests from fake apps that steal our name and icons.


Unless any app that I need or want becomes a third-party exclusive.


Unless any app with a web view decides to bundle their preferred browser engine.


I've said it before, message interoperability is the worst regulation in the DMA. It will lead to more spam, more confusion, less privacy, and less security.

ok you have valid concerns.

Sorry that people pirate your app too. That sucks.

Well it’s gonna happen. Let’s see how it plays out.

 

[SBlue1]

This is just a power grab by the elites. Nothing different from any other socialist system.

They are upset that Apple makes a profit while they sit in their publicly paid for chairs, doing nothing but punishing anyone who is financially successful.

What? This is pro consumers! LOL. Americans and their education at its best... LOL. In Europe the governments actually care for the consumers. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[rhett7660]

F-Droid for iOS here it comes....
Happy news.

Finally you can download a Torrent on your $1000+ device and see some tits.

Um... I don't need to download a torrent to do that...

 

[rhett7660]

Come on, CA is great! Most prosperous state in the nation. Absolutely beautiful as well. It's not like those s***-hole states like Texas or Florida.

Having lived here for the better part of 40 years... yeah I don't think that is the case any more especially down in the Los Angeles County area.

You might want to get out more and see other parts of the nation if that is the only two states you can compare to. But then again, I have a feeling this is more of a red - blue issue with this comment.

 

[alchemistmuffin]

Ummm I’m not sure if Apple is going to walk away from their second biggest market region.

They will if they have to protect their image as being privacy focused.

They already threatened to disable FaceTime and iMessage in UK if privacy invasive law goes through and in fact, they are likely going to leave UK altogether if necessary.

They got China and Asia already, that plus Americas would be enough for Apple continue making profit with needed EU market. Apple can technically afford to walk away from European market altogether.

 

[OneBar]

It’s not "just a money grab", it's how antitrust laws and regulations are supposed to work. If the companies comply (as some already are), there is no money for EU. Companies could also try to fight the laws (which could COST the EU money in courts), companies could leave EU countries, etc.

It is because they know it's more lucrative to pay the fine.

The "money" isn't necessarily meant to be going anywhere, it's about giving smaller companies the opportunity to do business on dominant platforms like iOS instead of being blocked/restricted from doing so or being required to use only one store (App Store), etc. It also gives consumers more app store, browser engine, etc. choices on iOS.

I never said it was meant to be going anywhere. I said fining entity A does not cause entity B to pop into existence. Doing something to Apple doesn't cause Blueberry to come into existence. It might help if they were taking the fines and putting them into an account to give start-ups a grant or something but government can't be bothered to actually help.

No company is required to only do business on one platform or the other that I've ever seen. If the company makes an app, they can compile it for iOS or Android and sell on all of them. A good majority do this. There is no competition for there being 5 stores selling the exact same app. The stores don't set the prices, the app dev does. The only thing that might change, and that's a tenuous might, is how much of a cut the stores take. In which case, if I'm the app dev, I average up the cuts and mark my app up twice that across them all. If you're going to buy my app, you're going to buy my app. A couple percentages isn't going to make any difference on that and will be negated by the time wasted searching all the stores.

 

[Red Oak]

If Apple did leave Europe, they’d cede the market there to Samsung et al.

Also European lead open source projects such as eos - which is a degoogled version of android - & its commercial company, murena, would step up.

Companies such as Nokia would scale up pretty fast and offer their phones with a version of eos, I’d imagine.

Even if they had to fork Android, the market opportunity would ensure that a lot of capital and engineering chops were devoted to its development.

So in short - the EU would be fine. Apart from Apple fans there of course.

And Apple looking at a 10-20% dip in profits each year from moving out of Europe.

EOS? It has been out for years and ZERO traction. 0% traction

Without an Android app ecosystem, it is dead on arrival.

Btw. AI is neither A nor I, just a marketing buzzword for algorithms, methods, functions and automation of existing data on trained models.

Anyway, AI an US-wave?

Do you really think the future of "AI" will be based only on OpenAI or Midjouney?
Smaller companies just don't pee on all wheels for marketing reasons like the Amazon, Microsoft & Co. who sponsors OpenAI. So I could just ask you to strike OpenAI from the list, because it's sponsored by bigger and older American companies. There are plenty of "AI" development going on in the background around the world.

I would not call "AI" THE US-wave, just because OpenAI got up in the news.

Is ChatGPT Getting Worse?

A new study describes how some GPT-4 capabilities have degraded, though users could simply be figuring out the AI isn’t all that smart.

gizmodo.com

There are much important AI development going on, e.g. in the Oncology area 😱, but yeah just things that matters, not lifestyle. I could flood you with non-US related German AI developments, but i better skip that.

To cite Wikipedia...

"The history of artificial intelligence (AI) began in antiquity, with myths, stories and rumors of artificial beings endowed with intelligence or consciousness by master craftsmen."

...at this time America didn't even exist.

"The seeds of modern AI were planted by philosophers who attempted to describe the process of human thinking as the mechanical manipulation of symbols. This work culminated in the invention of the programmable digital computer in the 1940s, a machine based on the abstract essence of mathematical reasoning. This device and the ideas behind it inspired a handful of scientists to begin seriously discussing the possibility of building an electronic brain."

VR really?
Common, Really VR?
Apple Vision ?🤣

Btw. Who discovered America?! *cough*
All US achievements belong to Italians

next_please();

a You’re lost if you don’t think the US is not 3-4 ahead in AI

There are three US tech companies I envy America for: Apple, Netflix and Lockheed Martin.

But what's the substance behind Twitter/X, Facebook/Meta or Google/Alphabet? Any company that needs more than one name has nothing of substance to offer. ARM, ASML, SAP. That's substance, three four letters and you know what it's good for. But buying a short message service for $44bn and then figuring out how to "monetize" it with blue checkmarks? Gimme a break, land of substance.

EU has not only fallen way behind the US. It‘s also rapidly falling behind China

 

[Treq]

Having lived here for the better part of 40 years... yeah I don't think that is the case any more especially down in the Los Angeles County area.

You might want to get out more and see other parts of the nation if that is the only two states you can compare to. But then again, I have a feeling this is more of a red - blue issue with this comment.

Nope. Lived in socal for 25 years. Not my favorite part of the state, but still miles better than most parts of Florida. California is gorgeous. Yosemite, the California coastline, the mountains, all amazing. Yes the politics of California are also a plus for many. I’d rather live in a state that wants to educate its kids instead of misinform them with Prager U videos, or make being trans into crime. Also California has great environmental regulations like Smog checks, electric car mandates that make it more desirable than Texas. Anyway, yeah, California is great. I’ve lived in all 4 corners of the country and traveled to almost every state. California isn’t my first choice, but it’s in the top 10. As for the EU’s regulation here… meh, I just hope it is restricted to the eu or at least doesn’t open a back door of security to make my phone less secure. Or even worse, encourage app developers to pull their apps from the App Store in favor of sideloading, forcing me to make my phone less secure to get required apps.

 

[rhett7660]

Nope. Lived in socal for 25 years. Not my favorite part of the state, but still miles better than most parts of Florida. California is gorgeous. Yosemite, the California coastline, the mountains, all amazing. Yes the politics of California are also a plus for many. I’d rather live in a state that wants to educate its kids instead of misinform them with Prager U videos, or make being trans into crime. Also California has great environmental regulations like Smog checks, electric car mandates that make it more desirable than Texas. Anyway, yeah, California is great. I’ve lived in all 4 corners of the country and traveled to almost every state. California isn’t my first choice, but it’s in the top 10. As for the EU’s regulation here… meh, I just hope it is restricted to the eu or at least doesn’t open a back door of security to make my phone less secure. Or even worse, encourage app developers to pull their apps from the App Store in favor of sideloading, forcing me to make my phone less secure to get required apps.

I think we/you/anybody can pick and chose places within each state that are "gorgeous", Texas included. And some how I knew there was going to be a political component to this, so I will stay away from that piece so that not to dive down the political spectrum.

 

[Treq]

I think we/you/anybody can pick and chose places within each state that are "gorgeous", Texas included. And some how I knew there was going to be a political component to this, so I will stay away from that piece so that not to dive down the political spectrum.

Of course there was a political component to it. Did you not read the original post I was replying to? Also, politics are a MAJOR part of what can make a place desirable to live as opposed to a s***-hole. If you part of the LGBTQ+ community or even watched NotJustBike on YouTube, you would know that.

 

[webkit]

Hah! I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the EU tries for years to tax a larger cut of Apple's revenue. Fails. And then comes back with legislation that targets them specifically. While also targeting exclusively non-EU companies with additional regulations in the same law.

This isn't antitrust. The metrics for gatekeeper status are NOT about market dominance. They don't consider market share. The DMA is about protectionism. Taking profits from foreign companies to keep more (taxable) revenue in the EU.

It is about antitrust. Antitrust laws are designed to regulate companies with dominant positions in particular markets who are engaging in anticompetitive behavior. How "dominance" and "anticompetitive behavior" are defined may vary by region/country/case. Obviously, companies determined to have dominant positions (e.g., Apple with iOS and Google with Android) tend to be very profitable but it's the "dominance" combined with "anticompetitive behavior" (e.g., restricting alternative app stores, browser engines, etc.) that is the trigger, not the "money grab" potential.

 

[insoft.uk]

EU market is a gatekeeper also, so it’s ironic they label Apple as a gatekeeper yet they are equally guilty of the same act.

 

[webkit]

It's not similar. X, Meta and Alphabet are all fantasy names invented to signal to investors, that there is another huge growth story for the stock other than its core business. If the Volkswagen Group renames itself to Mover&Shaker then it would be a similar situation. But naming a car company after its largest brand is very Toyota of them.

It is very similar. It is also quite common for large organizations to have a parent company with one name and own/have other companies (subsidiaries) with different names. Sometimes it comes about due to mergers/acquisitions, sometimes due to companies expanding or shifting into new areas outside their previous core business(es), sometimes it’s strictly for financial (tax, liability, etc.) reasons, and so on.

Again, you were wrong to say that "Twitter" has two names, "Facebook" has two names, and "Google" has two names. They do not. No more than Bentley has two names, Signavio has two names, Beddit has two names, Millarworld has two names, etc.

 

[BaldiMac]

It is about antitrust.

You could have a 10% market share in the EU and qualify as a gatekeeper. Again, the metrics have nothing to do with market dominance or existing antitrust laws. As evidenced by Apple qualifying with only a 30% share.

How "dominance" and "anticompetitive behavior" are defined may vary by region/country/case.

And you refuse to use those definitions in favor of just using them however you feel is needed for your argument.

 

[webkit]

It is because they know it's more lucrative to pay the fine.

Again, it's about antitrust laws which regulate "dominant" companies engaging in "anticompetitive behavior." If companies don't foillow/comply to the laws, there has to be some sort of penalty just as there are with other laws. Companies, like individuals, choose how they want to deal with laws.

No company is required to only do business on one platform or the other that I've ever seen. If the company makes an app, they can compile it for iOS or Android and sell on all of them. A good majority do this.

This is not about companies being "required" to do business on one platform or another, it's about being given the option to so especially when there are very limited choices such is the case in the mobile OS market.

There is no competition for there being 5 stores selling the exact same app. The stores don't set the prices, the app dev does. The only thing that might change, and that's a tenuous might, is how much of a cut the stores take. In which case, if I'm the app dev, I average up the cuts and mark my app up twice that across them all. If you're going to buy my app, you're going to buy my app. A couple percentages isn't going to make any difference on that and will be negated by the time wasted searching all the stores.

There absolutely can be competition as different stores can offer different reasons, incentives, etc. to use them over another. ABC App Store could run "sales", have frequent buyer programs, have unique payment options, etc. to entice users to use them over another. The App Store being the only option on dominant iOS gives Apple less incentive to try to entire customers (developers and end users) to use their store.

 

[webkit]

You could have a 10% market share in the EU and qualify as a gatekeeper. Again, the metrics have nothing to do with market dominance or existing antitrust laws. As evidenced by Apple qualifying with only a 30% share.

And you refuse to use those definitions in favor of just using them however you feel is needed for your argument.

I don't disagree that the EU's gatekeeper/dominance methodology or "definition" is unique but the end result seems to be largely the same. I think it's relatively rare that the EU's law ends up impacting a company/product with only 10% share but if it does, the company has every right to state their case just like in any other antitrust situation.

In the case of iOS and Android, for example, I absolutely do think they have dominant positions in mobile OS regardless of how the EU seems to have come to the same conclusion.

 

[neutralguy]

EMEA is not just the EU.

It includes the UK, which is the biggest market in Europe. The Middle East and Africa.

Let's just guess that pulling out of the EU would cut that sales market in half. That's not zero, as your comment seems to imply.

I'm not saying Apple will do this; but I hope they're at least considering it.

A company that bent backwards and threw away every philosophy of privacy and human rights, just to get the market of China will again prove you wrong!

When EU forces them to switch USB-C, I heard here you all shouting how that enforcement will stifle innovation and Apple should get out of EU market. But what happened? Apple is now embracing USB-C.

And same will happen with app store. Android already has alternative stores.

Apple is an opportunistic company and will do anything just to get revenue. If you don't believe it, just read the history of Apple!

 

[bluecoast]

They will if they have to protect their image as being privacy focused.

They already threatened to disable FaceTime and iMessage in UK if privacy invasive law goes through and in fact, they are likely going to leave UK altogether if necessary.

They got China and Asia already, that plus Americas would be enough for Apple continue making profit with needed EU market. Apple can technically afford to walk away from European market altogether.

With all due respect, if Tim Cook decided to pull out of the EU, Apple shares would plummet and he’d be out very shortly.

You may care about privacy (so do I).

But in the end, apple’s investors care about $ and pulling out of a pretty stable region of 500m people wouldn’t be looked at positively.

How would Apple make up the difference ? By doubling down in China and making themselves even more vulnerable there? When relations between the USA and China are deteriating on almost a monthly basis?

If you look around the world, most of it is pretty unstable.

The eu is a very stable place, a mature capitalist democracy that values the rule of law. You may not agree with their laws of course.

But they come from a different tradition than the USA, where the state is far more active.

Walking away from it would be insane.

 

[BaldiMac]

I don't disagree that the EU's gatekeeper/dominance methodology or "definition" is unique but the end result seems to be largely the same. I think it's relatively rare that the EU's law ends up impacting a company/product with only 10% share but if it does, the company has every right to state their case just like in any other antitrust situation.

It's not even close to the same. Apple doesn't dominate the OS market (mobile or otherwise). And it certainly doesn't dominate the browser market. And yet it qualifies. While many companies that do dominate their markets don't qualify.

Again, the gatekeeper designation has nothing to do with market dominance.

In the case of iOS and Android, for example, I absolutely do think they have dominant positions in mobile OS regardless of how the EU seems to have come to the same conclusion.

Sure. But that's just your own personal, arbitrary definition of dominant.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

They don’t? They pay the worst royalties to the labels and artists of these services, yet nobody is pulling their content off of them. Seems like abusing a market position… almost a textbook example of one.

None of this is true

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

Government control causes way more problems than it solves.

 

[Razorpit]

California is a toilet. Godzilla can't arrive soon enough.

Godzilla would get sick and die from all the needles and human excrement. CA doing what Monster Zero could never do. 😂

Nope. Lived in socal for 25 years. Not my favorite part of the state, but still miles better than most parts of Florida. California is gorgeous. Yosemite, the California coastline, the mountains, all amazing. Yes the politics of California are also a plus for many. I’d rather live in a state that wants to educate its kids instead of misinform them with Prager U videos, or make being trans into crime. Also California has great environmental regulations like Smog checks, electric car mandates that make it more desirable than Texas. Anyway, yeah, California is great. I’ve lived in all 4 corners of the country and traveled to almost every state. California isn’t my first choice, but it’s in the top 10. As for the EU’s regulation here… meh, I just hope it is restricted to the eu or at least doesn’t open a back door of security to make my phone less secure. Or even worse, encourage app developers to pull their apps from the App Store in favor of sideloading, forcing me to make my phone less secure to get required apps.

Funny you should mention s***hole states when CA has so much of it on their sidewalks.

Cost to rent 26’ U-Haul from LA to Austin, $4,668.00.
Cost to rent 26’ U-Haul from Austin to LA, $2,057.00.

Tells you everything you need to know about who’s leaving what s***hole state, using your words.